Post-Game Talk: Stars 4 @ Canucks 2 | 3/12/15

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Couldn't be more wrong. Provide some context on why Gillis didn't sign him. Absolutely the right decision at the time.

Clearly LA made the right decision. We made the moneyball decision.

 

[arttk]

I mean, yes, there are very likeable players that I like, but the ones that make this team unbearable are the ones playing way too much/often.

Yeah there is something wrong when I feel more attached to the team that had Mark ****ing Messier than this current team.

God I can't believe I typed that, **** this.

 

[fancouver]

Couldn't be more wrong. Provide some context on why Gillis didn't sign him. Absolutely the right decision at the time.

Did Gillis offer a 1 year contract?

 

[CanaFan]

Monahan had Hudler and a number of vets up front (Glencross, Stajan, Stempniak, Jackman, Cammalleri) and a strong defense with Giordano leading the way. They also had no delusions of making the playoffs, so Monahan was extremely sheltered and groomed properly.

You don't need HHOF level players though, no. If we had Ryan Kesler in front of Bo Horvat instead of Henrik Sedin, that works just as well. Hanzal might not even be at that level, but he's not a teenager.

When Ryan Nugent-Hopkins stepped into the Oilers lineup with zero career NHL games and was immediately their best center, that was a problem. Without Henrik Sedin, Bo Horvat would be our de-facto first line center. And Horvat doesn't have nearly the talent that Nuge does. See the problem?

As idiotic as Boston's handling of Seguin was, having him break into the league behind Bergeron, Krejci and Kelly is probably a huge reason why he's developed so well.

And like I said, I take the #1 pick every time too. But without the Sedins, this team still doesn't finish last...they probably finish with the 4th-6th pick instead of the 8th-10th. Sam Bennett (4th) over Nick Ritchie (10th) every time sure, but how about Jake Virtanen (6th) over William Nylander (8th)? And that's not even considering the development situation yet.

I'm not against sheltering kids when they break into the league. But as you pointed out, even a modestly successful NHLer like Martin Hanzal can provide that 'insulation' role, meaning so could someone like Brandon Sutter for example. Now that wouldn't be a very good team, so the draft pick would be in that 1-6 range (or whatever you think a non-Sedin team would earn) and the kids are still insulated.

That's how we could potentially be "tanking" and not "ruining the kids" a la Edmonton at the same time.

Which was my only point.

 

[arttk]

I'm not against sheltering kids when they break into the league. But as you pointed out, even a modestly successful NHLer like Martin Hanzal can provide that 'insulation' role, meaning so could someone like Brandon Sutter for example. Now that wouldn't be a very good team, so the draft pick would be in that 1-6 range (or whatever you think a non-Sedin team would earn) and the kids are still insulated.

That's how we could potentially be "tanking" and not "ruining the kids" a la Edmonton at the same time.

Which was my only point.

I think there is a lot more beside veteran insulation. I mean it's Arizona, there can't be less people giving a **** about what is going on there and the team is a state where nobody( almost literally) has any expectation.
Not a bad spot for a couple of kids to develop in. Hanzal,Vermette,Richardson can at least eat up the tough minute and let the kids play the easy minutes.

I think the thing I value is what Sundin passed onto the Sedins and Kesler. Having a truly elite player passing on knowledge is not easy to come by and maybe that knowledge can take a player to a different level like what we have seen happe to the twins and Kes.

 

[mathonwy]

I think there is a lot more beside veteran insulation. I mean it's Arizona, there can't be less people giving a **** about what is going on there and the team is a state where nobody( almost literally) has any expectation.
Not a bad spot for a couple of kids to develop in. Hanzal,Vermette,Richardson can at least eat up the tough minute and let the kids play the easy minutes.

I think the thing I value is what Sundin passed onto the Sedins and Kesler. Having a truly elite player passing on knowledge is not easy to come by and maybe that knowledge can take a player to a different level like what we have seen happe to the twins and Kes.

Prust not elite enough for you?

Don't be so elitist.

 

[CanaFan]

I think there is a lot more beside veteran insulation. I mean it's Arizona, there can't be less people giving a **** about what is going on there and the team is a state where nobody( almost literally) has any expectation.
Not a bad spot for a couple of kids to develop in. Hanzal,Vermette,Richardson can at least eat up the tough minute and let the kids play the easy minutes.

I think the thing I value is what Sundin passed onto the Sedins and Kesler. Having a truly elite player passing on knowledge is not easy to come by and maybe that knowledge can take a player to a different level like what we have seen happe to the twins and Kes.

Maybe. I can't say that isn't a factor because I believe it is. To a degree.

But where I get hung up is whether I'd rather draft Pierre Luc Dubois 10th and have him mentor under the Sedins for a couple of years, or draft Austin Matthews 1st and have him bring his prodigious talent to this team, even if he only had Brandon Sutter to insulate him.

I understand there is value in what the Sedins can pass along, but at the same time without them we are drafting in a completely different echelon of talent.

 

[arttk]

Prust not elite enough for you?

Don't be so elitist.

I think I am humble enough to believe our team is not worthy enough.

 

[arttk]

Maybe. I can't say that isn't a factor because I believe it is. To a degree.

But where I get hung up is whether I'd rather draft Pierre Luc Dubois 10th and have him mentor under the Sedins for a couple of years, or draft Austin Matthews 1st and have him bring his prodigious talent to this team, even if he only had Brandon Sutter to insulate him.

I understand there is value in what the Sedins can pass along, but at the same time without them we are drafting in a completely different echelon of talent.

Well I think I have said this before, I never thought it would be possible to tank with the Sedins being healthy, so for the prospects we can draft, having the twins as mentors could be great for their development.

But Benning is really challenging this notion so maybe we will actually get a lottery pick and be able to see the twins mentor him.

 

[mathonwy]

I think I am humble enough to believe our team is not worthy enough.

I think a player like Prust would make a world of difference on a team like CBJ.

He's the wrong fit for our team.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I think a player like Prust would make a world of difference on a team like CBJ.

He's the wrong fit for our team.

Why? We're to tough and big and don't need the heart, grit and character?

 

[vancityluongo]

I'm not against sheltering kids when they break into the league. But as you pointed out, even a modestly successful NHLer like Martin Hanzal can provide that 'insulation' role, meaning so could someone like Brandon Sutter for example. Now that wouldn't be a very good team, so the draft pick would be in that 1-6 range (or whatever you think a non-Sedin team would earn) and the kids are still insulated.

That's how we could potentially be "tanking" and not "ruining the kids" a la Edmonton at the same time.

Which was my only point.

Fair enough. My simple point is that you look at two players who looked almost interchangeable at the time of their draft in Yakupov and Galchenyuk and how they've developed since, and it's pretty evident that post-draft development is still huge even for these elite talent prospects. To the point where I take my chances "tanking" while keeping the Sedins rather than not with the hopes of picking a couple spots higher.

Agreed that it's not the "mentorship" ******** that separates McDavid from Lawson Crouse, but there's a huge reason why Detroit pumps out successful prospects all the time while Florida seems to have their elite talent often fall short.

 

[geebaan]

Why? We're to tough and big and don't need the staged fights, overpaid contract, and lack of sticking up for rookies?

fixed it for you

 

[CanaFan]

Fair enough. My simple point is that you look at two players who looked almost interchangeable at the time of their draft in Yakupov and Galchenyuk and how they've developed since, and it's pretty evident that post-draft development is still huge even for these elite talent prospects. To the point where I take my chances "tanking" while keeping the Sedins rather than not with the hopes of picking a couple spots higher.

Agreed that it's not the "mentorship" ******** that separates McDavid from Lawson Crouse, but there's a huge reason why Detroit pumps out successful prospects all the time while Florida seems to have their elite talent often fall short.

Agree to a point. The Yakipov/Galchenyuk example doesn't work for me because both were top 3 picks, which isn't the "talent gap" that I'm talking about. I'm referring to say picking 8-10 vs 1-3 or 4. This is the impact the Sedins make on your draft position.

As for Florida vs Detroit, I agree there is a scouting and developmental gap between the teams, but I'm not willing to chalk it all up to "mentorship" or whatever word you feel fits. Talent is talent. Kane and Toews didn't come up in a Detroit environment either and they turned out exception in large part because they are exceptional talents. Florida has had a lot of top 10 picks but not a ton of top 3-5 picks. Of those that they have, some were just not great picks to begin with (Horton, Weiss, Gudbranson) despite their high draft selection, while others do look very promising (Ekblad, Huberdeau) but are still young and developing.

Mentorship and learning has a benefit but it has to be measured against the impact on draft position. If the gap is large enough then I don't believe it can make up for it. If it is smaller - i.e. the mentors dont impact a team's point totals as much as the Sedins do for us - then perhaps it does.

 

[Verviticus]

Yeah there is something wrong when I feel more attached to the team that had Mark ****ing Messier than this current team.

God I can't believe I typed that, **** this.

messier was right. linden is the problem

messierwasright

 

[vancityluongo]

Agree to a point. The Yakipov/Galchenyuk example doesn't work for me because both were top 3 picks, which isn't the "talent gap" that I'm talking about. I'm referring to say picking 8-10 vs 1-3 or 4. This is the impact the Sedins make on your draft position.

As for Florida vs Detroit, I agree there is a scouting and developmental gap between the teams, but I'm not willing to chalk it all up to "mentorship" or whatever word you feel fits. Talent is talent. Kane and Toews didn't come up in a Detroit environment either and they turned out exception in large part because they are exceptional talents. Florida has had a lot of top 10 picks but not a ton of top 3-5 picks. Of those that they have, some were just not great picks to begin with (Horton, Weiss, Gudbranson) despite their high draft selection, while others do look very promising (Ekblad, Huberdeau) but are still young and developing.

Mentorship and learning has a benefit but it has to be measured against the impact on draft position. If the gap is large enough then I don't believe it can make up for it. If it is smaller - i.e. the mentors dont impact a team's point totals as much as the Sedins do for us - then perhaps it does.

I'm not talking about mentorship as in whatever Benning thinks Dorsett and Prust provide. I'm talking about the real, tangible benefit of a 19 year old rookie not having to go head to head vs. the Getzlafs, Kopitars and Thorntons every shift because there is a better, older player to do that for them. Edmonton does not have that. Toews and Kane got by from that because they had an elite Duncan Keith to help them, as well as an elite Marian Hossa and some ridiculous depth (that third line with Ladd and Byfuglien).

I don't think it's coincidence that Florida is the team that seems to continually get poor luck with their high picks - Huberdeau is good, but doesn't look like a third overall type player. Same with Barkov, who went second. Gudbranson at third. They should have better results than what they do with picks that high, no? If you're extending back to the Weiss days, don't forget Bouwmeester either. Thing is, that team is finally starting to see results with their young players with a stable goalie in Luongo and a guy like Jagr up front with Willie Mitchell on the back end to help Ekblad. That's huge.


Elite talent prevails over ******** about character and mentoring, no doubt. But slightly less talent (Yakupov vs Galchenyuk) can be overcome by having the right developmental environment, and I think that extends to your typical 4-5 picks vs the 9-10 picks because I don't think we'd be 1st overall worthy even without the Sedins.

Cheers.

 

[CanaFan]

I'm not talking about mentorship as in whatever Benning thinks Dorsett and Prust provide. I'm talking about the real, tangible benefit of a 19 year old rookie not having to go head to head vs. the Getzlafs, Kopitars and Thorntons every shift because there is a better, older player to do that for them. Edmonton does not have that. Toews and Kane got by from that because they had an elite Duncan Keith to help them, as well as an elite Marian Hossa and some ridiculous depth (that third line with Ladd and Byfuglien).

I don't think it's coincidence that Florida is the team that seems to continually get poor luck with their high picks - Huberdeau is good, but doesn't look like a third overall type player. Same with Barkov, who went second. Gudbranson at third. They should have better results than what they do with picks that high, no? If you're extending back to the Weiss days, don't forget Bouwmeester either. Thing is, that team is finally starting to see results with their young players with a stable goalie in Luongo and a guy like Jagr up front with Willie Mitchell on the back end to help Ekblad. That's huge.


Elite talent prevails over ******** about character and mentoring, no doubt. But slightly less talent (Yakupov vs Galchenyuk) can be overcome by having the right developmental environment, and I think that extends to your typical 4-5 picks vs the 9-10 picks because I don't think we'd be 1st overall worthy even without the Sedins.

Cheers.

Again (and maybe I said this to another poster, so apologies if it wasn't you) if you are talking insulation from having to play higher in the line up and face higher competition, then I don't disagree at all. But that can be done by playing Brandon Sutter as your 1C, losing a ton of games, and drafting Auston Matthews at the top of the draft.

If you are talking mentoring then that is different and while the Sedins can certainly provide a unique service in that capacity, I don't believe it is 100% necessary for a young kid's development. It's definitely a good thing, I'm just not sure it matters a whole lot either.

As for this team sans the Sedins... we are 6 points out of last place in the NHL WITH Daniel and Hank providing 40-50% of our offense so far (just a guess at the numbers). Take that away and give say Brandon Sutter those minutes instead. You don't think we lose at least an additional 3 games? Or don't send at least 6 games to OT?

Honesty I'd be surprised if we had half the points we do now without them.

 

[MarkMM]

Why? We're to tough and big and don't need the heart, grit and character?

Of course we do, that's why we need to get rid of Prust so we can get someone who will actually do that (and please stop being fooled by the staged fights, other teams don't fall for that so you should stop), not to mention can play hockey without being overpaid.