Soviet hockey level before the '72 Summit Series

[Triffy]

This is probably not news to anyone, but Soviet Union was way behind Canada in the late 50's. The amateur Canadians who were sent to represent the country in the world championships won a lion share of the games between the countries. This can be seen from the table below.

Games between USSR and Canada
(1953-54 - 1960-61)

Season| GP| W| L
1954| 1| 1| 0
1955| 1| 0| 1
1956| 1| 1| 0
1957| -| -| -
1958| 2| 0| 2
1959| 1| 0| 1
1960| 1| 0| 1
1961| 3| 1| 2
Total|10| 3| 7

After the 1962-63 season, the Soviets turned the ship around and won a gigantic share of the games. In 1968-69, Soviets won every single one of the 14 games played. That must have been a shock to Canadians who were, in 9 cases of the 14, playing in front of their home crowd. But, in 1970, Canada was the better country again. I wonder if the Canadians were given a wake-up call in 1969, and then in 1970 they started selecting better players to represent the country. This is pure speculation. Does anyone know anything about these exhibition games? Who were playing for Canada?

Games between USSR and Canada
(1962-63 - 1969-70)

Season| GP| W| L| T
1963| 1| 1| 0| 0
1964| 3| 3| 0| 0
1965| 8| 7| 0| 1
1966| 7| 6| 1| 0
1967| 5| 2| 2| 1
1968| 5| 4| 1| 0
1969| 14| 14| 0| 0
1970| 6| 2| 3| 1
Total|49| 39| 7| 3

After this, the countries didn't face each other until the Summit Series held in September 1972. Again, I would like to remind everybody that the Czechoslovaks at this stage were nearly as good as the Soviets.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts. How do you think the results affect on Firsov's placement in the history of hockey? His national career started in 1964 and ended in 1972. His prime was probably from 1966 until 1971, altough his domestic league numbers don't drop at all until 1973/74. I've read somewhere that he was dropped from the national team due to personal problems with coaching staff. How do these things affect on Ragulin?

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[Canadiens1958]

Which Games?

This is probably not news to anyone, but Soviet Union was way behind Canada in the late 50's. The amateur Canadians who were sent to represent the country in the world championships won a lion share of the games between the countries. This can be seen from the table below.

Games between USSR and Canada
(1953-54 - 1960-61)

Season| GP| W| L
1954| 1| 1| 0
1955| 1| 0| 1
1956| 1| 1| 0
1957| -| -| -
1958| 2| 0| 2
1959| 1| 0| 1
1960| 1| 0| 1
1961| 3| 1| 2
Total|10| 3| 7

After the 1962-63 season, the Soviets turned the ship around and won a gigantic share of the games. In 1968-69, Soviets won every single one of the 14 games played. That must have been a shock to Canadians who were, in 9 cases of the 14, playing in front of their home crowd. But, in 1970, Canada was the better country again. I wonder if the Canadians were given a wake-up call in 1969, and then in 1970 they started selecting better players to represent the country. This is pure speculation. Does anyone know anything about these exhibition games? Who were playing for Canada?

Games between USSR and Canada
(1962-63 - 1969-70)

Season| GP| W| L| T
1963| 1| 1| 0| 0
1964| 3| 3| 0| 0
1965| 8| 7| 0| 1
1966| 7| 6| 1| 0
1967| 5| 2| 2| 1
1968| 5| 4| 1| 0
1969| 14| 14| 0| 0
1970| 6| 2| 3| 1
Total|49| 39| 7| 3

After this, the countries didn't face each other until the Summit Series held in September 1972. Again, I would like to remind everybody that the Czechoslovaks at this stage were nearly as good as the Soviets.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts. How do you think the results affect on Firsov's placement in the history of hockey? His national career started in 1964 and ended in 1972. His prime was probably from 1966 until 1971, altough his domestic league numbers don't drop at all until 1973/74. I've read somewhere that he was dropped from the national team due to personal problems with coaching staff. How do these things affect on Ragulin?

Which games are you counting? National team vs national team, touring team games ?

 

[Triffy]

Which games are you counting? National team vs national team, touring team games ?

National team vs. national team.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Okay

National team vs. national team.

National team vs national team is just one element and a small one at that. Like the sloppy housekeeper who cleans the house before the relatives visit - things look perfect for a few days BUT deceiving.

You are looking at Soviet Hockey Level. So how deep and competitive was Soviet Hockey? List the top 100 Soviet players by decade. Look at the 2 - 5 best Soviet goalie by decade and compare.
Do similar breakdowns by position.

Conversely look at the two National teams from the 1960's Canada and the USSR. Most of the Canadian National Team players, outside the rebels like Carl Brewer or transient students - Ken Dryden for a few games, Father David Bauer era onwards could barely make the NHL. You have the Ab DeMarco, Brian Conacher, Jean Cusson, Marshall Johnston, Wayne Stephenson level players. Yet on the Soviet side you have claimants to the HHOF - Firsov, Ragulin, plus Soviet Elite League stars, scoring leaders, etc. None of the Canadian National team members of the Father David Bauer era were scoring leaders or Best Defensemen or Best goaltenders in any significant North American pro league before joining the Canadian National team.

Strong case could be made that the Canadian National team under Father David Bauer was typically a weaker team than their predecessors which were club teams, Whitby Dunlops, Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen.

 

[VMBM]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts. How do you think the results affect on Firsov's placement in the history of hockey? His national career started in 1964 and ended in 1972. His prime was probably from 1966 until 1971, altough his domestic league numbers don't drop at all until 1973/74. I've read somewhere that he was dropped from the national team due to personal problems with coaching staff. How do these things affect on Ragulin?

Hmmm, I don't know if they have any effect on Firsov's (or Ragulin's) placement, especially since there is apparent lack of available footage (?). All I can say is that Firsov's Goals Per Game average in games against the top teams in Europe, namely Czechoslovakia (0.57) and Sweden (0.77), is very good/excellent, as it is in games against Canada (0.74) too, though unlike in CSSR's and Sweden's case, it was different teams most of the time.

As far as those 6 games in the 1969-70 season go, the results are undoubtedly quite poor for USSR. It maybe suggests that USSR took some major leaps between 1969 and 1972, even though the 1969 team already had guys like the young Mikhailov, Petrov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Shadrin... interestingly, Firsov (who was the obvious star of the team still at this stage) missed a couple of those games (maybe injured?). And also rather interestingly, 12/20/1969 in Vancouver, USSR wins 9-3, and then lose 1-5 the next day in Victoria. I too would like to know, who played for Canada in which games (not necessarily the name of EVERY player, but what kind of team it was).

Lastly, it has never become clear to me if Firsov was dropped or if he quit the ntl team himself. However, he was shocked that they replaced Anatoli Tarasov (and Arkady Chernyshev, the 'official' HC) with Vsevolod Bobrov, who he apparently had no respect for. And that was that...

 

[Zine]

Soviet hockey was only about 20 years old in 1960s so there wasn’t much depth yet.

I'd say the only players of NHL caliber at this time were:
A-A-L line
Ragulin
Kuzkin
Davydov
Starshinov
Mayorov
Firsov
maybe Konovalenko as a backup somewhere

Imo only Firsov, Ragulin and perhaps Starshinov were on NHL all-star level. The real ‘coup’ in terms of overall depth came with the following generation.

 

[Zine]

Hmmm, I don't know if they have any effect on Firsov's (or Ragulin's) placement, especially since there is apparent lack of available footage (?). All I can say is that Firsov's Goals Per Game average in games against the top teams in Europe, namely Czechoslovakia (0.57) and Sweden (0.77), is very good/excellent, as so it is in games against Canada (0.74) too, though unlike in CSSR's and Sweden's case, it was different teams most of the time.

As far as those 6 games in the 1969-70 season go, the results are undoubtedly quite poor for USSR. It maybe suggests that USSR took some major leaps between 1969 and 1972, even though the 1969 team already had guys like the young Mikhailov, Petrov, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Shadrin... interestingly, Firsov (who was the obvious star of the team still at this stage) missed a couple of those games (maybe injured?). And also rather interestingly, 12/20/1969 in Vancouver, USSR wins 9-3, and then lose 1-5 the next day in Victoria. I too would like to know, who played for Canada in which games (not necessarily the name of EVERY player, but what kind of team it was).

Lastly, it has never become clear to me if Firsov was dropped or if he quit the ntl team himself. However, he was shocked that they replaced Anatoli Tarasov (and Arkady Chernyshev, the 'official' HC) with Vsevolod Bobrov, who he apparently had no respect for. And that was that...

According to Firsov he refused further NT invites after being left off the 1972 WC team (which is strange considering Firsov was 1971 Soviet POY). He claimed loyalty to Tarasov as the reason for the NT declines.
He most likely held more of a grudge against Bobrov.

 

[seventieslord]

You are looking at Soviet Hockey Level. So how deep and competitive was Soviet Hockey? List the top 100 Soviet players by decade. Look at the 2 - 5 best Soviet goalie by decade and compare.
Do similar breakdowns by position.

If you're so interested in that, you do it.