Some what ifs about the 1970s...

[Masao]

If Bobby Orr would not have had to deal with his injury problems, would the Canadiens and Islanders have been able to win 8 cups in 8 years? I think perhaps not. If Esposito had remained in Boston and Orr had been at his peak, they would have been a contender well into the 80s and would defintively have won a few cups in places of the Canadiens and Islanders.

Also, all other things remaining the same, would the Canadiens have won more than 4 cups in a row if Dryden hadn't retired? What if they had Dionne instead of Lafleur?

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[Fish on The Sand]

If Bobby Orr would not have had to deal with his injury problems, would the Canadiens and Islanders have been able to win 8 cups in 8 years? I think perhaps not. If Esposito had remained in Boston and Orr had been at his peak, they would have been a contender well into the 80s and would defintively have won a few cups in places of the Canadiens and Islanders.

Also, all other things remaining the same, would the Canadiens have won more than 4 cups in a row if Dryden hadn't retired? What if they had Dionne instead of Lafleur?

If Dryden hadn't retired nobody cares about the 80s Isles. As for Orr, it is tough to say. Montreal defeated Boston twice when they had Orr. Those 70s Habs were just too strong for any single player to undo them.

 

[FissionFire]

IF Orr hadn't gotten hurt he would have become an average defenseman within 2 seasons and nobody would think of him as a possibly best player ever but instead as a player with a tremendous peak but no staying power.

Before you jump all over me, prove me wrong with facts because my wild speculation is just as correct as anyone elses. The realm of "What Ifs" goes both ways.

 

[Sens Rule]

Boston, Philly, The Isles and Habs were all so strong of teams it is hard to believe even if Orr had not got injured that Boston would have won all kinds more Cups. The fact is Boston had a near dynasty talented team... and yet they won only two Cups while Orr was healthy.

Another factor of course is the WHA and Cheevers and other Bruins going there. But Parent went there too.

What if's are just what if's... and even if Dryden had stuck around for 5 more years.. I doubt the Habs are going to prevent more than 1 of those Isles Cups. The Isles were stacked deep and the Habs were declining with Dryden or not.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Well if Hawks wouldn't have traded Espo to Bruins in late 60's i figure we would have won in 70, 71 72 and 73 for sure!

 

[MXD]

IF Orr hadn't gotten hurt he would have become an average defenseman within 2 seasons and nobody would think of him as a possibly best player ever but instead as a player with a tremendous peak but no staying power.

Before you jump all over me, prove me wrong with facts because my wild speculation is just as correct as anyone elses. The realm of "What Ifs" goes both ways.

I won't say it's wrong... But I'll say that Boston would have kept Esposito. The flipside is, they don't get Park and Ratelle either.

 

[Weztex]

IF Orr hadn't gotten hurt he would have become an average defenseman within 2 seasons and nobody would think of him as a possibly best player ever but instead as a player with a tremendous peak but no staying power.

Before you jump all over me, prove me wrong with facts because my wild speculation is just as correct as anyone elses. The realm of "What Ifs" goes both ways.

Can't really disagree with you there.

 

[BNHL]

We never saw him peak,injured at 18 and crippled by 27.

 

[Gobias Industries]

IF Orr hadn't gotten hurt he would have become an average defenseman within 2 seasons and nobody would think of him as a possibly best player ever but instead as a player with a tremendous peak but no staying power.

Before you jump all over me, prove me wrong with facts because my wild speculation is just as correct as anyone elses. The realm of "What Ifs" goes both ways.

Only some people can offer more than just wild speculation, making your speculation a lot less relevant. What is the point of speculating without facts or supporting evidence?

He was an elite player throughout his career, what evidence is there to say that he would be an average defenceman at age 32?

He had won 8 straight Norris trophies prior to his retirement. You feel that in 1977 a light would have gone off in his head and he would have become average?

Similar era comparisons Denis Potvin (who was an elite defenceman up until injuries in his mid-30's) and Larry Robinson (who was a 2nd Team All-Star at 35) show that Orr would likely have continued his elite play until his mid 30's

There is no reason to think that without injuries Bobby Orr would become average at age 32, in fact there is every reason to think otherwise.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Only some people can offer more than just wild speculation, making your speculation a lot less relevant. What is the point of speculating without facts or supporting evidence?

He was an elite player throughout his career, what evidence is there to say that he would be an average defenceman at age 32?

Has anyone done a PECOTA-style analysis on players with Orr's career shape?

 

[Gobias Industries]

Has anyone done a PECOTA-style analysis on players with Orr's career shape?

It would be interesting to see....

Although I still think the Canadiens would have been unstoppable...especially under statistical analysis...

 

[Big Phil]

IF Orr hadn't gotten hurt he would have become an average defenseman within 2 seasons and nobody would think of him as a possibly best player ever but instead as a player with a tremendous peak but no staying power.

Before you jump all over me, prove me wrong with facts because my wild speculation is just as correct as anyone elses. The realm of "What Ifs" goes both ways.

I think the difference is that your speculation is wild and someone assuming that Orr would have continued to dominate isnt outrageous speculation. I mean what signs did you have that he would be average? Was it his 1976 Canada Cup tourny MVP? He was at the end of his career but he still played better than anyone on that team, and have you seen that team? I see him winning a few more Norris' from '76-84. After that Coffey and Bourque would have taken over. But in '84 he's 36 and if Lidstrom can do it at that age and Harvey can do it at 38 why couldnt Orr?

 

[Passchendaele]

in the '80s, Esposito would have been 38+.

 

[Chili]

The way Bobby Orr played he was always a target. Playing Boston in the early seventies, he was so dominant, that's the way it was. He was bound to get injured, he would have had to refine his style to stay healthy and then he may have been less effective. When I think of Orr, I think of someone who was always playing all out, I believe that was his way .

 

[Mad Habber]

Boston, Philly, The Isles and Habs were all so strong of teams it is hard to believe even if Orr had not got injured that Boston would have won all kinds more Cups. The fact is Boston had a near dynasty talented team... and yet they won only two Cups while Orr was healthy.

Another factor of course is the WHA and Cheevers and other Bruins going there. But Parent went there too.

What if's are just what if's... and even if Dryden had stuck around for 5 more years.. I doubt the Habs are going to prevent more than 1 of those Isles Cups. The Isles were stacked deep and the Habs were declining with Dryden or not.

Every team lost good players to the WHA.

Montreal lost F.Mahovlich after an 80 point season. OK he was on the downside, but also:

Rejean Houle at his peak (50 goals in the WHA, 30 in NHL) depth scoring.

JC Tremblay who should be in the hall. Just imagine the big 3 with a healthy Laperierre and Tremblay.

Another depth defenseman in Dale Hoganson who probably becomes #4 on the Habs with Lappy's early exit, and JC defection.

And probably the biggest. Marc Tardif. Even if you don't think he scores all those goals and points, he still fits right on Lafleur's left wing or on a second line devastating other teams. His stats
1973-74 Los Angeles Sharks WHA 75 40 30 70
1974-75 Michigan/Baltimore WHA 23 12 5 17
1974-75 Quebec Nordiques WHA 53 38 34 72
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 71 77 148
1976-77 Quebec Nordiques WHA 62 49 60 109
1977-78 Quebec Nordiques WHA 78 65 89 154
1978-79 Quebec Nordiques WHA 74 41 55 96
Montreal's offense was not a problem during those years, but how awsome would it have been with another 50 goal man and a 30 goal guy in Houle.

 

[Mad Habber]

My last post made me think. If there is no WHA, then there is no exodus of players. Hull stays in Chicago, GHowe never comes back probably. Mark Howe has a HOF career along with Tardif and a few others.

But does the European invasion occur when it did.

I think it gets delayed where the early eighties sees the slow trickle of europeans rather than the second half of the 70s. I think guys like Hedberg, Salming, Nilssons etc only come around maybe 5 years later because there isn't as big a need for them. The NHL doesn't keep expanding to Kansas City and Washington right away. Chosing to wait until there is enough talent to fill those teams.

 

[BNHL]

The way Bobby Orr played he was always a target. Playing Boston in the early seventies, he was so dominant, that's the way it was. He was bound to get injured, he would have had to refine his style to stay healthy and then he may have been less effective. When I think of Orr, I think of someone who was always playing all out, I believe that was his way .

Exactly why Bourque lasted so long,a different style and a lot of good fortune.

 

[Pens75]

Michel Briere will always be the biggest 1970's "what if" in my mind as a Penguin Fan. He sounded almost "Crosby Like"

When the Pittsburgh Penguins selected center Michel Briere 26th overall in 1969, they had hoped he would become the Penguins' first superstar. Considered to be too small by many teams, the Penguins felt Michel Briere's offensive exploits in just one season of junior hockey warranted them taking the chance.

Briere played for the local Shawinigan Bruins for one season in 1968-69. He scored 75 goals, 86 assists and 161 points in just 55 games and had scouts druelling over his skating and puck talents. "Briere skated easily. He skimmed across the ice like a waterbug, not with great speed but with a phantom elusiveness, deftly avoiding body checks, probing and questing for the puck," a reporter described in a newspaper. "His shot was quick rather than powerful, coming invariably when the goaltender least expected it, preceded as likely as not by a feint, by a dip of the shoulder," raved one scout.

It looked like the Penguins gamble would pay off too. Although he had played only one season of major junior, Briere stepped into the NHL right away, and didn't look out of place. He scored 12 goals and 44 points in 76 games before adding 5 goals and 8 points in 10 playoff games. One of those playoff goals was an overtime game winning goal that clinched the Pens 4 game sweep of the Oakland Seals. In total he scored 3 game winning goals in those playoffs. The Penguins fell to the St Louis Blues in 6 games in the next round.

It looked like the effortless skater was on his way to becoming a dominant offensive force for the Penguins for years to come. Then tragedy struck. His promising career ended on a dark night after his only season. He had returned to Quebec to make plans for his wedding in less than a month. On the evening of May 15th, his car failed to negotiate a curve on a road outside Malartic. Briere was thrown from the car. While he was unscarred physically, Briere was unconscious from head injuries. He remained in a coma for 7 months, spent 11 months in the hospital, before he died April 13, 1971.

Ironically Briere was the first of two prominent Pittsburgh athletes who wore No. 21 to die within a 19-month period. Baseball Hall of Fame outfielder Roberto Clemente died in a New Year's Eve plane crash on Dec. 31, 1972.

"He was one of the greatest competitors I ever played with," said Ken Schinkel, a former Pens player and coach, of Briere. "He would never take defeat. He really wanted to win and he would try and do it by himself if he had to. He would have been a star in the league for a long time." It took the Penguins awhile to overcome the loss of such a talented player - plus the leadership he showed as well. "He was the biggest leader we had at the time," Schinkel said. "And we had some good, established players on that team. But he was the catalyst and he made it go."

In memoriam, Briere's No. 21 jersey hangs at the Pittsburgh Arena and no one will wear that number again. Also the Michel Briere Memorial Trophy was created to be awarded to the Penguins player judged to be the best rookie on the team. We are left only to wonder how good Briere could have been, and how he could have changed the landscape of hockey history in Pittsburgh forever.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=481917

 

[Sens Rule]

Every team lost good players to the WHA.

Montreal lost F.Mahovlich after an 80 point season. OK he was on the downside, but also:

Rejean Houle at his peak (50 goals in the WHA, 30 in NHL) depth scoring.

JC Tremblay who should be in the hall. Just imagine the big 3 with a healthy Laperierre and Tremblay.

Another depth defenseman in Dale Hoganson who probably becomes #4 on the Habs with Lappy's early exit, and JC defection.

And probably the biggest. Marc Tardif. Even if you don't think he scores all those goals and points, he still fits right on Lafleur's left wing or on a second line devastating other teams. His stats
1973-74 Los Angeles Sharks WHA 75 40 30 70
1974-75 Michigan/Baltimore WHA 23 12 5 17
1974-75 Quebec Nordiques WHA 53 38 34 72
1975-76 Quebec Nordiques WHA 81 71 77 148
1976-77 Quebec Nordiques WHA 62 49 60 109
1977-78 Quebec Nordiques WHA 78 65 89 154
1978-79 Quebec Nordiques WHA 74 41 55 96
Montreal's offense was not a problem during those years, but how awsome would it have been with another 50 goal man and a 30 goal guy in Houle.

I agree the WHA.. was a huge What-If for every team in the 70's. Even the Habs.

 

[Trottier]

If Dryden hadn't retired nobody cares about the 80s Isles.

Simple as that!

Keep dreaming.

Oh, the delusions of some Habs fans.

 

[Murphy7]

If the Red Army team hadn't marched into North America during the 75-76 season, the Broad Street Bullies would have been lucky, not good.
The Flyers defeated the talented Red Army, validating Philly as a hockey power instead of a sideshow. They would have just been a bunch of thugs who were lucky to win two Cups. Instead, they were legitimized by that win over the Soviets moreso than their "fluke" Cup win over Boston or that expansion series triumph over Buffalo.
Media everywhere announced warnings when Philly was coming to town. Other cities hated the Philly style of play. After the two Soviet teams did some damage in NHL arenas, even the NY media was singing Philly's praises.
I don't think Philly would have won more or less, but that team in that era is remembered in a better light than it might have been.

 

[JaymzB]

If Dryden hadn't retired nobody cares about the 80s Isles.

That is a bit much. With Dryden, they probably make the early 80's more interesting, and maybe get 1 cup from the Isles, but the Isles were way too good of a team from top to bottom not to get at least 3 of the 4 IMO.

 

[Passchendaele]

Only some people can offer more than just wild speculation, making your speculation a lot less relevant. What is the point of speculating without facts or supporting evidence?

He was an elite player throughout his career, what evidence is there to say that he would be an average defenceman at age 32?

He had won 8 straight Norris trophies prior to his retirement. You feel that in 1977 a light would have gone off in his head and he would have become average?

Similar era comparisons Denis Potvin (who was an elite defenceman up until injuries in his mid-30's) and Larry Robinson (who was a 2nd Team All-Star at 35) show that Orr would likely have continued his elite play until his mid 30's

There is no reason to think that without injuries Bobby Orr would become average at age 32, in fact there is every reason to think otherwise.

the difference is, both Potvin and Robinson played a different game. Orr relied on his speed a lot. And god knows how age would have affected his skating.

 

[Masao]

the difference is, both Potvin and Robinson played a different game. Orr relied on his speed a lot. And god knows how age would have affected his skating.

I think age affects agility more than speed

Probably in the mid 80s he wouldn't be able to stickhandle like he used to anymore... but Chris Chelios is about as old today as Orr was in the early 90s, so I'm pretty sure Orr would have been the best for a long time

 

[Darz]

If Bobby Orr would not have had to deal with his injury problems, would the Canadiens and Islanders have been able to win 8 cups in 8 years?

It definately would of changed the landscape of the NHL powerhouses in the later 70's and early 80's, although one could argue that the Orr/Espo Bruins should of won more Cups as it stands, so maybe then would of just had a few more major playoff disappointments.

Also, all other things remaining the same, would the Canadiens have won more than 4 cups in a row if Dryden hadn't retired?

Honestly, I dunno if they would of won MORE Cups, but I doubt they would of been as disappointing playoff performers over the next 4 years (80,81,82,83).

What if they had Dionne instead of Lafleur?

I think the habs of the 70's wouldn't of been as good with Dionne than Lafleur (maybe losing out on a Cup or two), but the 80's habs would of defiantely benefited from having Dionne instead of Lafleur (dunno if that would of turned into any more Cups, but...).