Blue Jays Discussion: So you're saying there's a chance?Pt II: Not anymore. Because, y'know, season's over

[Nasty Nazem]

Scott Boras is the real MVP

He is right. But we already know the 5 year club policy is total bull **** for the club to use as an excuse when they don't or cant sign a free agent.

They did ditch that dumb policy momentarily to sign Vernon Wells though.

Maybe they are going to move Lind and go with a Mayberry/Smoak platoon at 1B. If we can get a 2B or outfielder it might be worth looking at.

Smoak is a switch hitter who is terrible from both sides and pretty awful in general. Either way, shopping Adam Lind to see what you can get for him is a good move. He has cheap options and there is not a whole lot of power available. If they can get an everyday 2B for him, do itttt.

They will buyout his option and try to bury him in Buffalo.

 

[Mach85]

Lots of chatter about Lind moving soon. ESPN, Joel Sherman. Which probably means he's not moving lol.

I'd like to take advantage of the Rays' purge and grab Ben Zobrist. Affordable contract and dat versatility...

 

[Hyperglide]

Don't really like Smoak but he's cheap and a decent stop-gap for Lind, once he's moved (seems pretty likely now).

 

[Amadeus]

Lots of chatter about Lind moving soon. ESPN, Joel Sherman. Which probably means he's not moving lol.

I'd like to take advantage of the Rays' purge and grab Ben Zobrist. Affordable contract and dat versatility...

I think Lind gets moved for BP help.

 

[The Nemesis]

They did ditch that dumb policy momentarily to sign Vernon Wells though.

and look how that worked out. If the Angels hadn't gotten so monumentally stupid as to take on the near-full value of that contract, he would still be hurting the Jays' operating budget.

As for Smoak, who cares. It's a cheap flyer on a guy. If he figures out his issues, great. If not, nothing of value was lost in the attempt since his contract is up at year's end. There's really no significant downside to this kind of move.

And on the plus side, Smoak is exactly the kind of guy that the Jays have successfully made reclamation projects out of before. He's a guy with plate discipline and power potential.

 

[Amadeus]

and look how that worked out. If the Angels hadn't gotten so monumentally stupid as to take on the near-full value of that contract, he would still be hurting the Jays' operating budget.

As for Smoak, who cares. It's a cheap flyer on a guy. If he figures out his issues, great. If not, nothing of value was lost in the attempt since his contract is up at year's end. There's really no significant downside to this kind of move.

And on the plus side, Smoak is exactly the kind of guy that the Jays have successfully made reclamation projects out of before. He's a guy with plate discipline and power potential.

Definitely worth noting considering the move from Safeco Field to the Rogers Center.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

and look how that worked out. If the Angels hadn't gotten so monumentally stupid as to take on the near-full value of that contract, he would still be hurting the Jays' operating budget.

As for Smoak, who cares. It's a cheap flyer on a guy. If he figures out his issues, great. If not, nothing of value was lost in the attempt since his contract is up at year's end. There's really no significant downside to this kind of move.

And on the plus side, Smoak is exactly the kind of guy that the Jays have successfully made reclamation projects out of before. He's a guy with plate discipline and power potential.

Never said it did work out, just pointing it out that it did in fact happen. Long-term contracts generally dont work out but it can be a necessary evil for a competing club. And really it all depends on who that person is, if you are giving a 30+ player more than 5 years, you are asking for trouble but are you really not going to be willing to give a 27, 28 year old more than 5 years because you have an useless internal policy that you cant go beyond 5 years?

Jays should be trying to avoid deals longer than 5 years as much as possible but it is so freaking dumb to handcuff yourself based on this policy. Every FA seeking a deal longer than 5 years is pretty much already crossing the Jays off their list because they know they cannot get it from them.

 

[trellaine201]

Yep 5yrs is a tough sell on the good free agents definitely. With out a doubt. That plus a cdn city. Taxes etc. were behind the 8 ball already IF there seriously interested in the better FA.

 

[King Mapes]

Just heard about Smoak. Holy ****ing ****! I realize his value went way down but it definitely could be a great move

 

[King Mapes]

Lots of chatter about Lind moving soon. ESPN, Joel Sherman. Which probably means he's not moving lol.

I'd like to take advantage of the Rays' purge and grab Ben Zobrist. Affordable contract and dat versatility...

Is a Lind for Walker exchange still out there? Heard they almost did it last year.

 

[Eyedea]

It was brought up in this thread pretty recently. I'd say there is mutual interest there. If not Walker I'd try and work a deal around Lind and Hanson.

 

[Cor]

Smoak is such an AA move. Maybe it'll work out.

Someone fill me in on the rumors and speculation floating out there.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

Is a Lind for Walker exchange still out there? Heard they almost did it last year.

When was that ever a thing? It makes no sense for Mariners to trade a top 5-10 pitching prospect for a platoon DH.

Jays wont be getting anything special for Lind.

 

[Eyedea]

Neil Walker.

 

[The Nemesis]

When was that ever a thing? It makes no sense for Mariners to trade a top 5-10 pitching prospect for a platoon DH.

Jays wont be getting anything special for Lind.

I think he meant Neil Walker from the Pirates.

They need a bigish bat to play 1st and replace Pedro Alvarez. Jays need a middle infielder.

 

[trellaine201]

Just looking at Walkers offensive stats. No way its a straight up trade. Jays would definitely have to add. Lind has a terrible back etc. I highly doubt the Pirates do that straight up. Besides I think Lind is a DH. IMO. I doubt he goes to an NL team.

 

[Simcoe23]

and look how that worked out. If the Angels hadn't gotten so monumentally stupid as to take on the near-full value of that contract, he would still be hurting the Jays' operating budget.

As for Smoak, who cares. It's a cheap flyer on a guy. If he figures out his issues, great. If not, nothing of value was lost in the attempt since his contract is up at year's end. There's really no significant downside to this kind of move.

And on the plus side, Smoak is exactly the kind of guy that the Jays have successfully made reclamation projects out of before. He's a guy with plate discipline and power potential.

The problem for me is this is 90% of the moves AA makes. He can justify by saying, "well if it works out, great, and if it doesn't, well what did we give up" but when your entire bench players and 2-3 of your regular bats are these kind of guys, chances are most is them are going to fail, which means you fail. Kawasaki, Francisco, Tolleson, Vellencia, Reimold, Johnson, Getz.....

Stop diamond in the rough hunting. You need to decide on what you have and make tough decisions. Talent for talent deals are what is going to improve this team now. Move good pieces that may not fit here for good pieces that might not have fit there. I'm hoping this is what is going on with Lind. Add another piece or two and make a real trade. It's not like you're risking damaging the winning formula or anything.

 

[theaub]

and look how that worked out. If the Angels hadn't gotten so monumentally stupid as to take on the near-full value of that contract, he would still be hurting the Jays' operating budget.

And that's the entire problem. That even a useless $20-$25M contract can absolutely bury a team in this market is a total joke.

The Jays have Edwin and Jose locked up at ridiculously team friendly contracts and yet they refuse to spend a single cent more than the $140M they have locked in. The past two years have shown this team isn't going anywhere with a $140M payroll. Anyone can say 'well Team X or Team Y wins with $90M!' but who gives a crap? They aren't the Jays. Its clear that this team either needs to spend more money to get to the level required to be competitive, or just blow it up and start all over again. Throwing out these mediocre 80-85 win teams and just throwing blind darts at waiver claims and praying that they can provide above average talent for the entire year is frankly insulting to the fanbase.

There's 25+ other teams in the league that would kill to have a Jose/Edwin 3/4. Watching the Jays just absolutely blow the primes of both of their careers due to a combination of front office ineptitude and scared ownership is pathetic.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

I think he meant Neil Walker from the Pirates.

They need a bigish bat to play 1st and replace Pedro Alvarez. Jays need a middle infielder.

That makes more sense. Hard to see that now though after a career year from Walker.

 

[Eyedea]

Anybody else notice how much confidence Ventura had on the mound yesterday? Game 6 of the world series, do or die situation, and then add the death of Taveras on top of that. Then he goes all Phenomenal Smith on the Giants to force game 7.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v36872461/ws2014-gm6-ventura-makes-headsup-play-to-get-pence

 

[ryno23]

And that's the entire problem. That even a useless $20-$25M contract can absolutely bury a team in this market is a total joke.

The Jays have Edwin and Jose locked up at ridiculously team friendly contracts and yet they refuse to spend a single cent more than the $140M they have locked in. The past two years have shown this team isn't going anywhere with a $140M payroll. Anyone can say 'well Team X or Team Y wins with $90M!' but who gives a crap? They aren't the Jays. Its clear that this team either needs to spend more money to get to the level required to be competitive, or just blow it up and start all over again. Throwing out these mediocre 80-85 win teams and just throwing blind darts at waiver claims and praying that they can provide above average talent for the entire year is frankly insulting to the fanbase.

There's 25+ other teams in the league that would kill to have a Jose/Edwin 3/4. Watching the Jays just absolutely blow the primes of both of their careers due to a combination of front office ineptitude and scared ownership is pathetic.

Why teams with $90 million payrolls win is they have a good farm that yields not only pitchers but positional players who can play and contribute on entry level type deals.

Toronto has no position player ready for the past few years to make that impact they had to go out and bring scrubs in to do it.

They have all their money tied into guys like Burehle and Dickey who give you .500 baseball and that is why their $140 million payroll doesn't work. Oh forgot Reyes and $22 million

So you have to move those guys and then hope to fill the holes with the leftover money. Can they move those guys??? Not sure

 

[Longshot]

I think $140 million is a large enough payroll to win.

The problem with the present $140 million payroll is more than $40 million of it is tied up in Buerhle and Reyes.

 

[theaub]

Agree with both of you 100%

If the Jays can get rid of Buehrle or Reyes it will give them a ton of flexibility. If they can't though, they either need to find players currently in the system (as ryno pointed out, the Jays haven't developed a legitimate position player since...Lind?), or spend money. Considering there's no close players in the system and AA still seems enamored with drafting guys who can be athletes instead of play baseball, the second option seems more reasonable.

 

[TootooTrain]

That makes more sense. Hard to see that now though after a career year from Walker.

Not to mention he's a Pittsburgh native. Big part of their marketing scheme along with Cutch. Could see it happening still. I love Lind's resurgence and would be tough to see him go as a fan favourite of mine. First uniform I bought. The only true drafted/developed positional player currently on the roster aswell.

 

[tp71]

The problem for me is this is 90% of the moves AA makes. He can justify by saying, "well if it works out, great, and if it doesn't, well what did we give up" but when your entire bench players and 2-3 of your regular bats are these kind of guys, chances are most is them are going to fail, which means you fail. Kawasaki, Francisco, Tolleson, Vellencia, Reimold, Johnson, Getz.....

Stop diamond in the rough hunting. You need to decide on what you have and make tough decisions. Talent for talent deals are what is going to improve this team now. Move good pieces that may not fit here for good pieces that might not have fit there. I'm hoping this is what is going on with Lind. Add another piece or two and make a real trade. It's not like you're risking damaging the winning formula or anything.

He shouldn't stop. It gives good depth players to the minor system if there's no room in the majors. It gives them options if a guy like Lind is to be moved. And it doesn't hurt anything by picking up guys off of waivers. Yes he should be making some bigger deals here and there, but he should not stop this as well. Not at all. As you said, it's not like he's risking damaging the winning formula or anything.