So uh.. this year Crosby put himself in elite company..

[Dipsy Doodle]

Again, I agree he is a dominant playoff performer. But, just as with other all time greats it's more a case of him continuing his dominant regular season performance with a dominating playoff performance rather than raising his play.

Anyway, I shall try and stop derailing this thread...

How many of the all-time greats raised their play in the playoffs rather than simply continued their dominant regular season play, in your estimation?

For reference, here's the top 20 players from the last HF All-Time Draft:

1. Bobby Orr, D
2. Wayne Gretzky, C
3. Mario Lemieux, C
4. Gordie Howe, RW
5. Eddie Shore, D
6. Doug Harvey, D
7. Bobby Hull, LW
8. Raymond Bourque, D
9. Jean Beliveau, C
10. Maurice Richard, RW
11. Denis Potvin, D
12. Stan Mikita, C
13. Dominic Hasek, G
14. Nicklas Lidstrom, D
15. Red Kelly, D
16. Guy Lafleur, RW
17. Bryan Trottier, C
18. Howie Morenz, C
19. Larry Robinson, D
20. Bobby Clarke, C

Please provide explanations and reference points.

 

[lextune]

Well, most of us would consider the Stanley Cup finals to be the most important games and while he wasn't bad he certainly wasn't the guy who stepped it up.

I would argue that all playoff games are important. You don't get to the finals if you lose in the 2nd round.....

I just don't think it is his clutch ability that makes him great.

My reply to this will be a post I made after last year's playoffs.....

Malkin; the right choice for the Smythe?

Yes, because of the final round.

I think the real question is; "Did Crosby have the best first three rounds of all time that didn't end up winning the Smythe?"

Crosby finished only five points behind Malkin, both of them in the elite 30+ point club.

The Pens don't get to the finals without Sid. He had an awesome amount of "big points".

Crosby actually set an amazing record this playoff run.

He scored the the opening goal of six games. It is one of those very telling stats for me....few things set the tone of a playoff game like the game's first goal. Even Wayne, Mario, Kurri and the like, in their playoff goal scoring glory, never put together that kind of performance.

Not incidentally, Pittsburgh won 5 out of those 6 games. And the one loss saw Crosby score all three of his team's goals in a one goal loss 4-3 to the Caps, (the dueling hat tricks night with Ovy).

Without Sid the Pens lose; first round.

Scoring the first goal of the game, time after time after time like that was incredibly clutch.

And it was not as if he was known for scoring lots of goals at that point. He was still primarily a playmaker. Very few of the goals were of the like we saw from him this year. He was in the dirtiest of dirty areas, seemingly willing goals into the net. If you aren't going to call Crosby's play in last year's playoffs 'clutch', I must admit to being very curious about your definition of the word.

 

[matnor]

How many of the all-time greats raised their play in the playoffs rather than simply continued their dominant regular season play, in your estimation?

For reference, here's the top 20 players from the last HF All-Time Draft:

1. Bobby Orr, D
2. Wayne Gretzky, C
3. Mario Lemieux, C
4. Gordie Howe, RW
5. Eddie Shore, D
6. Doug Harvey, D
7. Bobby Hull, LW
8. Raymond Bourque, D
9. Jean Beliveau, C
10. Maurice Richard, RW
11. Denis Potvin, D
12. Stan Mikita, C
13. Dominic Hasek, G
14. Nicklas Lidstrom, D
15. Red Kelly, D
16. Guy Lafleur, RW
17. Bryan Trottier, C
18. Howie Morenz, C
19. Larry Robinson, D
20. Bobby Clarke, C

Please provide explanations and reference points.

Well, for at lot of these guys I would merely resort to a statistical argument since I don't enough about them. But I would argue that Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Hasek and Lidström pretty much did in the postseason what they did in the regular season (of course the game change in the postseason and a player like Gretzky didn't hunt records like he did in the regular season).

 

[matnor]

I would argue that all playoff games are important. You don't get to the finals if you lose in the 2nd round.....

Completely agree

If you aren't going to call Crosby's play in last year's playoffs 'clutch', I must admit to being very curious about your definition of the word.

I suppose it depends on how you define clutch. If by clutch you mean play very good in very important situations I would definately define his play as clutch. If on the other hand mean ability to raise his level way above his regular season play then I wouldn't say he was overly clutch.

 

[lextune]

If on the other hand mean ability to raise his level way above his regular season play then I wouldn't say he was overly clutch.

Isn't that what he did, by become a goal scorer all of a sudden?

Crosby finished the regular season with 33 goals in 77 games....

....He scored 14 goals in the first 16 playoff games.

If that is not raising his goal scoring level way above his regular season play then what is?

There is not a person on earth who expected to see that from him. He had helped lead the Pens all the way to the finals the year before with a total of 6 goals in 20 games.

 

[matnor]

Isn't that what he did, by become a goal scorer all of a sudden?

Crosby finished the regular season with 33 goals in 77 games....

....He scored 14 goals in the first 16 playoff games.

If that is not raising his goal scoring level way above his regular season play then what is?

There is not a person on earth who expected to see that from him. He had helped lead the Pens all the way to the finals the year before with a total of 6 goals in 20 games.

In the end he scored 15 in 24 which would be the relevant stat, still definately impressive for a playmaker. Who knows, in the end we may look upon his career and say he was an extremely clutch player. My point is that it is too early to tell whether he is a guy who always raises his game. A lot of players have had good or bad reputations that have changed over time. Look at Sakic and Yzerman for instance who both had a reputation of not being able to lead their clubs to victory, something that seems ridiculous now.

 

[markov`]

In the end he scored 15 in 24 which would be the relevant stat, still definately impressive for a playmaker. Who knows, in the end we may look upon his career and say he was an extremely clutch player. My point is that it is too early to tell whether he is a guy who always raises his game. A lot of players have had good or bad reputations that have changed over time. Look at Sakic and Yzerman for instance who both had a reputation of not being able to lead their clubs to victory, something that seems ridiculous now.

Lol Crosby has proven he was clutch when he scored the biggest goal in hockey since I don't know when, and also bringing his team to the Cup 2 straight times and winning once. I think there's a pattern, don't you?

 

[Big Phil]

Again, I agree he is a dominant playoff performer. But, just as with other all time greats it's more a case of him continuing his dominant regular season performance with a dominating playoff performance rather than raising his play.

Anyway, I shall try and stop derailing this thread...

I think it's easier said than done though. If scoring goals in the playoffs was easy then Joe Thornton would do it. It's a whole other animal in the postseason. This is where the legends truly earn their dough

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

In the end he scored 15 in 24 which would be the relevant stat, still definately impressive for a playmaker. Who knows, in the end we may look upon his career and say he was an extremely clutch player. My point is that it is too early to tell whether he is a guy who always raises his game. A lot of players have had good or bad reputations that have changed over time.

Pretty impressive for anyone, considering it was the highest post-season goal total in 13 years.

Look at Sakic and Yzerman for instance who both had a reputation of not being able to lead their clubs to victory, something that seems ridiculous now.

The difference is that Crosby's already accomplished what Yzerman hadn't until he was 32, which led to that reputation. Whatever happens from this point on, what #87's done can't be taken away.

 

[lextune]

In the end he scored 15 in 24 which would be the relevant stat, still definately impressive for a playmaker. Who knows, in the end we may look upon his career and say he was an extremely clutch player. My point is that it is too early to tell whether he is a guy who always raises his game. A lot of players have had good or bad reputations that have changed over time. Look at Sakic and Yzerman for instance who both had a reputation of not being able to lead their clubs to victory, something that seems ridiculous now.

Not sure how scoring 14 of those in the first 16 games is not relevant....



We all know that he was not as dominant in the finals. Whether it was injury or now; who knows, but the 14 goals in the first three rounds is just sick.

 

[Stray Wasp]

Well, for at lot of these guys I would merely resort to a statistical argument since I don't enough about them. But I would argue that Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Hasek and Lidström pretty much did in the postseason what they did in the regular season (of course the game change in the postseason and a player like Gretzky didn't hunt records like he did in the regular season).

A comparison you might find interesting: Gretzky's first two Stanley Cup finals series.

In 83 the Islanders swept the Oilers 4-0 and Gretzky scored 0+4.
In 84 the Oilers beat the Islanders 4-1 and Gretzky scored 4+2. In the first three games of the series he registered a solitary assist.

While the Red Wings in 08 and 09 aren't on a par with the Islanders in their pomp you're still talking about trying to surmount the checking line and top defensemen on a formidable team. Even the greatest players will struggle to dominate in those circumstances. But they can make important intangible contributions. Gretzky and Crosby have both proven the ability to keep working hard even if they can't score and that sets a great example for the rest of the team.

 

[matnor]

A comparison you might find interesting: Gretzky's first two Stanley Cup finals series.

In 83 the Islanders swept the Oilers 4-0 and Gretzky scored 0+4.
In 84 the Oilers beat the Islanders 4-1 and Gretzky scored 4+2. In the first three games of the series he registered a solitary assist.

While the Red Wings in 08 and 09 aren't on a par with the Islanders in their pomp you're still talking about trying to surmount the checking line and top defensemen on a formidable team. Even the greatest players will struggle to dominate in those circumstances. But they can make important intangible contributions. Gretzky and Crosby have both proven the ability to keep working hard even if they can't score and that sets a great example for the rest of the team.

Couldn't agree with you more. Great players will sometimes struggle in important games. There is no player who always come through for his team in important situations.

 

[matnor]

Not sure how scoring 14 of those in the first 16 games is not relevant....



We all know that he was not as dominant in the finals. Whether it was injury or now; who knows, but the 14 goals in the first three rounds is just sick.

My point was that you have to look at his entire body of work if you are to say that he is inherently clutch. Those first three rounds were extremely impressive for sure and if he had played like that his entire playoff career than I would have no problem saying he is extremely clutch.

Since a lot of people apparantley think I hold a controversial opinion let me be extremely clear one last time. Crosby is a fantastic player that plays extremely well in the regular season and continues to play extremely well in the postseason. So far in his career I don't think we've seen enough of him to say that he always raises his game more than other players do in the postseason. He has been one of the best players in the regular season and one of the best players in the postseason. If he continues his brilliant play so far in the playoffs in the future I'll change my mind. I don't think I can say the same thing in many other ways now so let's move on and discuss something else shall we?