SKA vs NHL clubs

[VladNYC*]

In fairness, I think the comparison is apt. Bobby Orr was a good player who played in a league full of low-talent players; he was a head of his time and it showed, and he was great because his competition was non existent. Dallman as well plays in a league where he's not faced with much competition and lights it up.

WTF are you blabbing about now?

 

[obskyr]

In fairness, I think the comparison is apt. Bobby Orr was a good player who played in a league full of low-talent players; he was a head of his time and it showed, and he was great because his competition was non existent. Dallman as well plays in a league where he's not faced with much competition and lights it up.

Bobby Orr had a phenomenal scoring record playing in the best team of his league where dmen were getting almost three times less points. He dominated his peers. Dallman doesn't. He's just a stable offensive def comparable to guys like Nikulin or Rachunek who got a chance to score a lot of goals for a team with less than stellar offensive lines. Is Mamshev on his way to become KHL's Paul Coffey? Damn, that was fast!

...Nah, of course not. He isn't Canadian and he never played in the NA leagues, there's nothing to discuss for an average Canadian fan, so no preposterous comparisons based on the same old sterotypes and sheer speculation will follow.

 

[Mathradio]

I'd predict a first-round exit in the playoffs.

 

[ViD]

probably something like this

 

[obskyr]

Theyd prob make the playoffs,but be crushed by defensive team like LA or Boston.

This post pretty much nails it to be honest. The last NHL East finals were a lot like SKA's experience with Dynamo (who are more like Kings though). Except Petersburg is significantly weaker than Pittsburgh to begin with, there are too many teams to "solve" for SKA.

If only NHL had the Cup of Hope...

 

[Zine]

Several clubs would be NHL level on big ice; the very elite teams playoff level.

 

[Atas2000]

I think the major factor here would be the ice size and aslo how engaged you could get an NHL team in terms of effort. For sure SKA could beat an NHL club touring Russia in the preseason. However when you look at the SKA roster it is full of guys who played in NA and basically ended up in the KHL because they didn't make it or could no longer make it as NHLers. Dallman is a great example. He has been the best D-man in the KHL for many years, but likely couldn't even make an NHL roster now. Kovy obviously has been a super star in the NHL, but even he finished 82nd in league scoring last year which is ceratinly one of the reasons the Devils let him go. I think the KHL and Kovy moving over there are both great for hockey, but the odds are if SKA played a full season in the NHL they would finish in last place. The KHL average talent level is slowly rising, but still not even close to the NHL's.

gave me a laugh. btw SKA is like 6th to 7th best team in the KHL. there are better teams.

 

[Atas2000]

In fairness, I think the comparison is apt. Bobby Orr was a good player who played in a league full of low-talent players; he was a head of his time and it showed, and he was great because his competition was non existent. Dallman as well plays in a league where he's not faced with much competition and lights it up.

Yep, and guys like Lupul or E.Kane couldn't do *** against that "weak" competition.

 

[Atas2000]

Seems Russian fans have this love-hate relatonship with SKA. On the one hand they suck because they can sign whomever they want in Europe at least and steal (lure away) players from other teams. On the other hand it's the only team that could perhaps ''beat evil capitalists NHL" (though funny enough big sports leagues could be the most socialist of all organizations in the USA) on regular basis.

Mind-boggling, defying logic.

1. How is SKA "the only" team if they are by far not the best team in the league?

2. "Evil capitalists NHL"? What do we have now in Russia? Do you even realize this is an extremely american cliche to think Russian would still be "commies"?

I personally like SKA cause they can sometimes give good thrashing to smaller teams and it's always interesting to see SKA - Avto game with a lot of goals instead of both teams play like one knows it will eventually win and the other knows it will eventually lose.... I also like them cause they often lose to Riga and on their home ice too.

Yeah, in that kindergarten-western conference...

 

[Chileiceman]

I think SKA could be a playoff sure on big ice, as would other teams such as Ak Bars and Traktor.

However, on small ice it's a different story. A lot of players on those teams couldn't cut it on the small ice in their forays to North America (much like guys like Kane and Lupul couldn't make it work on the big ice).

 

[obskyr]

gave me a laugh. btw SKA is like 6th to 7th best team in the KHL. there are better teams.

Except it isn't. 6th best teams don't win regular seasons.

What kind of delusion is that?

 

[Atas2000]

Except it isn't. 6th best teams don't win regular seasons.

What kind of delusion is that?

What kind of delusion is to think a team that wins the regular season(which in itself is worth what?) in the western conference with 2! teams worth considering as a contender can be proud of the accomplishment?

For the record: I don't like the fact. The West needs more serious contenders and I hope the money finally clicks with CSKA (Torchetti or not) and maybe Lev's aspirations are for real and maybe Slovan will copy Dynamo Moscow a little bit and win by team effort and desire. Otherwise it's a sad picture. I had hopes for Severstal. They reinforced SKA instead. Atlant is the big unknown right now. Loko is the CBJ of the KHL, no offence at all, a huge bandwaggon though.

Other than that Dynamo Moscow is now the undisputed best team in the KHL. But then the Eastern Conference dishes 5 contenders and another 3 teams all above average Western Conference level. The serial playoff chokers SKA are somewhere at the bottom of that contender pool only because of their roster and their regular season accolades. They are 5th at the very best.

 

[obskyr]

What kind of delusion is to think a team that wins the regular season(which in itself is worth what?) in the western conference with 2! teams worth considering as a contender can be proud of the accomplishment?.

How do conferences even matter in this case? Last season every team had the same amount of matches with only two extra games, in which SKA played against Dynamo (yes, the Moscow one) winning three of their games out of four overall. There were no division points and SKA won the Continental Cup by a large margin. The fact that Severstal is a weaker team than Salavat does not change anything. And there are no objective grounds whatsoever to claim that Ak Bars would win a series against SKA. It's all your homer superstitions.

 

[Vicente]

I would expect SKA to be a serious playoff contender in NHL (in both conferences of it) and maybe become 4th in the conference or so. In playoffs they would get in trouble with ANY team with a good defense.

In Stanley Cup playoffs you often have defensive battles that are decided in 2nd or 3rd OT. SKA has no decent defense to win such battles. Dynamo Moscow though would have good chances to even reach the Stanley Cup finals as outsiders with a good team effort - just as sometimes a surprise team wins NHL title.

 

[Atas2000]

How do conferences even matter in this case? Last season every team had the same amount of matches with only two extra games, in which SKA played against Dynamo (yes, the Moscow one) winning three of their games out of four overall. There were no division points and SKA won the Continental Cup by a large margin. The fact that Severstal is a weaker team than Salavat does not change anything. And there are no objective grounds whatsoever to claim that Ak Bars would win a series against SKA. It's all your homer superstitions.

Taking regular season series as a measuring stick for anything is complete nonsense. It got invented by writers desperately in need to write something before the playoffs. How can you compare a season opener to a mid-season game to a last game of the season with nothing left at stake? Maybe it's one of the big wrongs by SKA, winning those meaningless reg. season games only to flame out in the playoffs. Your example with Dynamo Moscow only supports my point. Who cares about the reg. season series when finally two teams meet in a series where they are in the same place at the same time, both need wins.

As for Severstal as a metaphore for western conference playoffs: sorry but west. conf. playoffs are an easy walk for a serious contender until the conference finals. And that's what killed SKA... yet again. They weren't playing playoff hockey. I don't want to start an in depth analysis wheteher it was mental or physical or whatever. SKA was riding their reg. season wave to some nice "Beach Boys" track and then SUDDENLY the playoffs started when they met Dynamo. SKA did look completely lost. They were not ready to contend. That's what separates a contender from a perennial Cup of Nothing winner.

I don't know why you pick up some AkBars-SKA comparison. I didn't, but here are no "homer superstitions", but some cold hard facts for you: AkBars GC -2, SKA GC - none. that doesn't mean AkBars would win a 7 game series. I don't know who would. Noone knows. But it does mean AkBars is clearly the better team in recent history. It's like calling the Canucks to be better than Chicago. A series? Who knows, but Chicago is the better team and they have 2 SCs to show for it in recent years.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

gave me a laugh. btw SKA is like 6th to 7th best team in the KHL. there are better teams.

It doesn't matter which KHL team you pick. If they played a full season in the NHL with their current rosters they would still finish last by quite a large margin. NHL teams are built for small ice and draw from a much, much, much larger talent pool than the KHL currently does. Look at a team like SKA's roster and see how those players did the last time they played in the NHL / AHL and compare them to any NHL roster. It's still not that close.

The KHL is great for hockey and steadily improving, but I find many Soviet expats like to way over exaggerate the existing talent level there.

 

[doctorgreg]

It doesn't matter which KHL team you pick. If they played a full season in the NHL with their current rosters they would still finish last by quite a large margin. NHL teams are built for small ice and draw from a much, much, much larger talent pool than the KHL currently does. Look at a team like SKA's roster and see how those players did the last time they played in the NHL / AHL and compare them to any NHL roster. It's still not that close.

The KHL is great for hockey and steadily improving, but I find many Soviet expats like to way over exaggerate the existing talent level there.

Well, I believe many canadiens exaggerate their existing talent and underestimate european and, especially, russian hockey level. If Canada has such large talent pool, why you are at the 5th rank beyond top european countries?

http://www.iihf.com/de/home-of-hock...-ranking/mens-world-ranking/2013-ranking.html

And if the difference between NHL and KHL is so great, why NHL does not want to play exhibition games? Oh, its a rhetoric question, dont answer, I know what you will say.

 

[obskyr]

It doesn't matter which KHL team you pick. If they played a full season in the NHL with their current rosters they would still finish last by quite a large margin. NHL teams are built for small ice and draw from a much, much, much larger talent pool than the KHL currently does. Look at a team like SKA's roster and see how those players did the last time they played in the NHL / AHL and compare them to any NHL roster. It's still not that close.

As you may notice that in the first post of this thread, the OP made an emphasis on bigger ice games. Okay?

What exactly are we looking for in the NHL stats of the players like, say, Tikhonov, who found his scoring touch only in the KHL? How productive they were in the third lines? I guess they were not. They'd obviously score more in top 6 playing bigger ice eurohockey that is more suitable for their set of skills, like skating and puck handling as opposed to checking and dumping. (I know it is a stupid sterotype, but I can't help it)

See, in SKA you have players like Thoresen, who in the most prestigeous international bigger ice tournament for players of crappier NHL teams (the IIHF Champ) was able to become a top forward second only to Malkin. Not even Stamkos came close to his scores this year. And while I'm not even sure if those champs prove anything, why can't we just compare the stats of the lockout players?..

To me it seems like a more reasonable idea, because a lot of those guys were top players who came over here to fill the top lines. And, well, comparing to the NHL season that followed, their scoring average grew 10-25%. Yes, it's not something you wouldn't expect considering that the KHL is a less competitve league. (that's a given) But does it fit your assumption that one of the best teams woudn't be competitive even against the Florida Panthers? Sorry, but I don't see that at all. Because if the gap was that huge, their stats would grow much bigger. It would more like Bykov and Khomutov's careers in the NLA, when they went from their Soviet 0.80 PPG to several seasons of stable 2+.

 

[Atas2000]

It doesn't matter which KHL team you pick. If they played a full season in the NHL with their current rosters they would still finish last by quite a large margin.

Who is exaggerating now?

NHL teams are built for small ice and draw from a much, much, much larger talent pool than the KHL currently does. Look at a team like SKA's roster and see how those players did the last time they played in the NHL / AHL and compare them to any NHL roster. It's still not that close.

By your logic E.Kane is a KHL bottom sixer at best.

The KHL is great for hockey and steadily improving, but I find many Soviet expats like to way over exaggerate the existing talent level there.

I don't know about Soviet expats, but I follow both leagues and can compare the level. You are wrong by a large margin.

 

[obskyr]

I don't know why you pick up some AkBars-SKA comparison. I didn't, but here are no "homer superstitions", but some cold hard facts for you: AkBars GC -2, SKA GC - none. that doesn't mean AkBars would win a 7 game series. I don't know who would. Noone knows. But it does mean AkBars is clearly the better team in recent history. It's like calling the Canucks to be better than Chicago. A series? Who knows, but Chicago is the better team and they have 2 SCs to show for it in recent years.

Some cold hard facts for you too: there was no way 2012-13 SKA could play against 2008-09 Ak Bars. I'm glad that you recognize that we can't really speculate if Ak Bars could win a series with SKA or not, that makes the hypothesis of SPb being 6-7th in the league even more groundless. So I can't really think of any objective rankings of the league's teams other than the results of the regular season.

And, no, taking regular season series as a measuring stick for anything wasn't inveted by lazy writers, that's how championship titles have been determined for decades of Russian hockey hisotry.

I'm glad for all the good things that happened to Ak Bars years ago, but except for several cases like said Ak Bars or Dynamo, the KHL teams still are even less stable than the NHL teams. It's somewhat silly to judge nowdays SKA by the performance of SKA from three years back.

 

[ozo]

Some cold hard facts for you too: there was no way 2012-13 SKA could play against 2008-09 Ak Bars. I'm glad that you recognize that we can't really speculate if Ak Bars could win a series with SKA or not, that makes the hypothesis of SPb being 6-7th in the league even more groundless. So I can't really think of any objective rankings of the league's teams other than the results of the regular season.

And, no, taking regular season series as a measuring stick for anything wasn't inveted by lazy writers, that's how championship titles have been determined for decades of Russian hockey hisotry.

I'm glad for all the good things that happened to Ak Bars years ago, but except for several cases like said Ak Bars or Dynamo, the KHL teams still are even less stable than the NHL teams. It's somewhat silly to judge nowdays SKA by the performance of SKA from three years back.

This is a great post.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Well, I believe many canadiens exaggerate their existing talent and underestimate european and, especially, russian hockey level. If Canada has such large talent pool, why you are at the 5th rank beyond top european countries?

http://www.iihf.com/de/home-of-hock...-ranking/mens-world-ranking/2013-ranking.html

And if the difference between NHL and KHL is so great, why NHL does not want to play exhibition games? Oh, its a rhetoric question, dont answer, I know what you will say.

I would like to see some KHL clubs come over and play some games on the small ice vs AHL teams first, and the IIHF rankings?? I don't even think most hardcore Europhiles put any value in those.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

As you may notice that in the first post of this thread, the OP made an emphasis on bigger ice games. Okay?

What exactly are we looking for in the NHL stats of the players like, say, Tikhonov, who found his scoring touch only in the KHL? How productive they were in the third lines? I guess they were not. They'd obviously score more in top 6 playing bigger ice eurohockey that is more suitable for their set of skills, like skating and puck handling as opposed to checking and dumping. (I know it is a stupid sterotype, but I can't help it)

See, in SKA you have players like Thoresen, who in the most prestigeous international bigger ice tournament for players of crappier NHL teams (the IIHF Champ) was able to become a top forward second only to Malkin. Not even Stamkos came close to his scores this year. And while I'm not even sure if those champs prove anything, why can't we just compare the stats of the lockout players?..

To me it seems like a more reasonable idea, because a lot of those guys were top players who came over here to fill the top lines. And, well, comparing to the NHL season that followed, their scoring average grew 10-25%. Yes, it's not something you wouldn't expect considering that the KHL is a less competitve league. (that's a given) But does it fit your assumption that one of the best teams woudn't be competitive even against the Florida Panthers? Sorry, but I don't see that at all. Because if the gap was that huge, their stats would grow much bigger. It would more like Bykov and Khomutov's careers in the NLA, when they went from their Soviet 0.80 PPG to several seasons of stable 2+.

For me the measuring stick is how players do on the small ice since the large majority of the world's rinks are small ice and almost all of the world's top players play in NA on the small ice. Most players can convert to the large ice just fine but it can take quite a bit of time and dedication to make the adjustment and the lockout and world championships are just too short for that to happen. The KHL players I was refering to played one or more full seasons in NA, so it's not really the same thing.

 

[vorky]

I would like to see some KHL clubs come over and play some games on the small ice vs AHL teams first, and the IIHF rankings?? I don't even think most hardcore Europhiles put any value in those.

There were plans for games or all star game AHL vs VHL. KHL will never play against AHL, only NHL.

 

[obskyr]

For me the measuring stick is how players do on the small ice since the large majority of the world's rinks are small ice and almost all of the world's top players play in NA on the small ice. Most players can convert to the large ice just fine but it can take quite a bit of time and dedication to make the adjustment and the lockout and world championships are just too short for that to happen. The KHL players I was refering to played one or more full seasons in NA, so it's not really the same thing.

Pls, be more particular. Botom six players like Artyukhin (NHL) and Feedor Feedorov (AHL) didn't improve their stats for years in SKA, neither did top player Maxim "mad one meter scoring skills" Afinogenov. And no, not really, I have no reasons to believe that North American mediocrities, who are the meat of the NHL, would perform better on bigger ice than native European mediocrities, cherrypicked Dallmans don't do that for me. And I have even less faith in sucess of North American coaches on European rinks, Maurice failed to prove that with both Carolina and Magnitka.