Confirmed Signing with Link: [SJS] Patrick Marleau signs with the Sharks (1 year, $700K)

Discussion in 'Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk' started by MMC, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. DrSteveBrule cool guy

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    16
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Pacific Grove, CA
    Basing his entire career off his short time in Toronto is ridiculous. lol at the nothing franchise line...it's been 53 years since the Leafs won a Cup. Who cares how his time there will be remembered.
     
  2. Reality Check Registered User

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Messages:
    15,576
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    Trophy Points:
    169
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    San Jose needs to do the same with Doug Wilson as Detroit did with Ken Holland.
     
  3. The Big D Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    838
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    I have no problem blaming Lou and Babs for this. In fact check my post history. I’ve been very consistent on that point. There was less than 0 reason to give Marleau the third year. That deal and Zaitsev are big reasons why Lou wasn’t re-upped after his agreed upon 3 year term was up.
     
  4. tarheelhockey Nostrildamus

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    66,152
    Likes Received:
    61,306
    Trophy Points:
    225
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    The Triangle
    Time zones definitely do have an impact on the body. So does spending additional hours in transit. This is honestly just common sense to anyone who has ever traveled as part of their job.

    We can say at a minimum that he was staying in competitive shape to play a sport at a high level, against guys whose only focus was on that sport.

    Beyond that, how can you say how strenuous it was, or what the focus was, or that the workouts were "barely anything"? Where are you getting that information? And who are you comparing it to? Some NHL players arrive out-of-shape to training camp every year, and always have.

    I would agree that it's all a bit of a wash. That's exactly my point. Yes, players block more shots than they used to. And shots don't injure you the way they used to. It's a wash. Yes, players hit harder than they used to. And they actually wear helmets with substantial padding so the impacts of hitting are much less significant. It's a wash. Yes, they travel more time zones. And they make that up by the hours of rest they gain from faster travel. It's a wash. Yes, summer training is more intense than it used to be. And they're doing that instead of playing a second sport or working in a factory. It's a wash. Virtually all of it is basically an exchange of one type of strain for another.

    In terms of scheduling, Howe skated primarily during the 70-game era and into the 80-game era, with a much more extensive exhibition schedule than what we have now. The overall number of games hasn't changed significantly since going to the 70-game schedule in the early 50s -- and they've added about 3 weeks to the schedule so it's a little less compact than it used to be.
     
  5. The Big D Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    838
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    All that time without winning and it’s still the centre of the hockey universe. Frankly who cares how many public skates paddy takes wearing teal. There are more people within a ten block radius of SBA that care about how Lou and Marleau bungled up the leafs chance at a cup while the big three were on value deals than there are sharks fans in all of NorCal.
     
  6. BiolaRunner Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    98
    SB Cash:
    $ 58,571
    Gender:
    Male
    Babcock would let him get to within a game of the record first
     
  7. DrSteveBrule cool guy

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2019
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    16
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Pacific Grove, CA
    I have no problem with Toronto, I just insulted them because you called San Jose a "nothing franchise" and you've been insulting probably the most beloved Sharks player in franchise history because of his stint in Toronto and because, in your words, he's a "loser". If he's a loser because he doesn't have a Cup, then your team has been a bunch of losers for over 50 years. No matter how many people "care". lol
     
    WSS11, Sharksfan83 and Guttersniped like this.
  8. Quid Pro Clowe Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    46,302
    Likes Received:
    5,216
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    530
    Well the post I quoted seemed to put it on Patty's shoulders.

    Leafs were the only team to offer the 3rd year. Sharks offered 2 at 5 per, and when Marleau brought them the Leafs offer in an attempt to get Wilson to match he told him "good luck in Toronto".
     
  9. The Big D Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,625
    Likes Received:
    838
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    The part that falls on PM is the way that he handcuffed the team by forcing a buyout or a trade to only SJ or a team that was 100% buying him out. He signed for three years and I’m sure the agreed upon outcome after season 2 wasn’t that.
     
  10. TomasHertlsRooster Don’t say eye test when you mean points

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    32,958
    Likes Received:
    24,220
    Trophy Points:
    172
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Graduate Student
    Location:
    Fremont, CA
    This has been hashed out time and time again. Marleau wanted to stay in Toronto for the 3rd year, but Toronto had to trade him because Kyle Dubas is one of the worst RFA contract negotiators in the history of the NHL and the terrible contracts that he signed his players to forced Toronto to trade Marleau. Marleau had a full NTC, and he didn’t even have to waive it at all; he was being amenable to Toronto just by waiving it, but he made it clear that if he were going to waive it, it would be on his terms - in a trade to San Jose or another team that would buy him out.

    Quit your whining and scapegoating.
     
  11. Kranix Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    10,706
    Likes Received:
    6,338
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Nice spin
     
  12. Pinkfloyd Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    60,510
    Likes Received:
    5,633
    Trophy Points:
    220
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Government Employee
    Location:
    Roseville
    Citing common sense on something that is not even done anymore is questionable to say the least. People don't travel on train to do what Gordie Howe did anymore nor most other professions. The idea that he spent additional hours in transit compared to players today is unproven in this conversation from what I've seen and I think it would be very difficult to do so.

    As for the against guys whose only focus was on that sport, are you sure about that? Typically, players in those days had off-season jobs across all sports. What Howe did then wasn't out of the norm. I like that you ask the question about how I can say how strenuous it was when you're doing the same thing making it a parallel. Yeah, some players do arrive out of shape but that's not the norm anymore. It often occurred during Howe's time for various reasons like they had other jobs for instance.

    I think it's taking the easy way out to call it all a wash. The physical and mental punishment that players endure these days are greater. Just because they've gotten advances in equipment and medicine doesn't mean it's caught up enough to make it a wash. Is it a wash that a lot of guys develop mental trauma to the extent of committing suicide seemingly more often than in the past? I don't.

    As for the scheduling, a predominant 70 game schedule compared to 82 is merely one thing. The playoffs have extended itself as well. Marleau has played about a half season longer in the playoffs than Howe did. But again, none of this matters and really is only trying to take away from what Marleau is going to do next season. Anyone able to stay at an NHL level for 23 seasons in any era has an impressive career regardless of any other stat.
     
  13. tarheelhockey Nostrildamus

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    66,152
    Likes Received:
    61,306
    Trophy Points:
    225
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    The Triangle
    That may be true from a West Coast point of view, but on the Atlantic seaboard the matter of train vs plane is a decision that people make every day. Almost nobody chooses the train unless the distance is triflingly small (e.g. Philly to NYC). There absolutely is a difference between the 8-hour train ride or the 1.5-hour flight from Washington to Boston. Especially if it leaves late at night and you're expecting to work the following day.

    I meant that he was playing against baseball prospects whose only focus was on advancing in that sport. To go out there and not only make the team, but also play effectively in that environment, he had to have been in full blown baseball training. Everyone else on the team certainly would have been.

    No need to go down the path of exactly how many NHL'ers actually worked real 9-to-5 jobs in the offseason, and how many actually showed up to camp out of shape, but suffice it to say that this is largely mythology based on a small number of incidents that stick in people's memory.

    You're right that it's the easy way to call it a wash. We could try and pick apart every detail of the topic for a precise analysis, but IMO that's not needed. We can just as easily, for the sake of internet conversation, look at the broad strokes and see that a lot of this stuff breaks even. A lot of these changes happened because of efforts to make the game less stressful on the mind and body -- injury prevention and treatment, collectively bargained rights, improvements to off-ice accommodations, schedule decompression, etc. And because of those improvements, they're able to push the envelope a little more, squeeze a little more juice out of the player. It all stays more or less in balance -- looks different, feels about the same.

    As far as suicide is concerned, I don't know of any increase in the suicide rate among NHL players as a whole. That spate of suicides happened in the stage-fighter demographic that was a phenomenon of the 90s and 00s -- and yes, I definitely would say that specific breed of player took a level of physiological punishment that was unique in history.

    I was going to mention playoffs, because for some players that would be a legit point, but we're talking about Patrick Marleau.

    And no, none of this is meant to take anything away from his career. I just don't see any need to speak inaccurately about other eras in order to boost modern accomplishments. If Marleau's record stands in its own right, then let it do that.
     
  14. Pinkfloyd Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    60,510
    Likes Received:
    5,633
    Trophy Points:
    220
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Government Employee
    Location:
    Roseville
    Except the issue isn't everyday people making a commute choice. It's a hockey player on a hockey schedule that isn't five days a week. You're right that there's a difference but the difference isn't some huge toll on the body for a hockey player like you're implying in comparison to a plane trip.

    As for the baseball stuff, he played partly against baseball prospects...most of whom didn't make it clearly...but he also played in a league that other NHL'ers would participate in for their summers. They also played against guys that were well past their prime because semi-pro isn't the same as a legitimate minor league. This was closer to rec ball than it was minor league baseball.

    I don't get your last part. I don't know if the whole "we're talking about Patrick Marleau" thing is a dig or what but you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of by misrepresenting eras for the purpose of boosting accomplishments. You're just on the side of the other era. That's the only difference. You are absolutely still speaking inaccurately about it.
     
  15. tarheelhockey Nostrildamus

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    66,152
    Likes Received:
    61,306
    Trophy Points:
    225
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    The Triangle
    I'm not sure what you mean here... NHL players either traveled or played almost daily during that time period.

    Again just picking a random stretch from a random year (1957) of no particular significance:

    [coming off a week-long, 3 game homestand in Detroit]
    Dec 14 - @ Detroit, 4:00 start
    [16 hours overnight to NYC]
    Dec 15 - @ NYC
    Dec 16-17 - Back to Detroit, 16 hour train ride
    Dec 18 - Morning practice
    Dec 19 - @ Detroit, 8:30 start
    Dec 20 - Travel to Chicago, 5 hour train ride
    Dec 21 - @ Chicago, 4:00 start
    [5 hours overnight to Detroit]
    Dec 22 - @ Detroit, 8:30 start
    Dec 23-24 - To Boston, 23 hour train ride
    Dec 25 - @ Boston, 8:30 start?
    Dec 26-27 - To Montreal, 13 hour train ride
    Dec 28 - @ Montreal, 8:30 or 9:00 start
    [10 hours overnight to Detroit]
    Dec 29 - @ Detroit, 8:30 start
    Dec 30 - Practice?
    Dec 31 - @ Detroit, 8:30 start
    [5 hours overnight to Chicago for a 7:30 start]

    Does that look dramatically different than a modern NHL schedule? Not really, especially not compared to an Eastern schedule.

    Just looking at one season, 1951, half of the teams had a future major leaguer on their roster. That clearly isn't a "rec league" environment.

    I'm saying Marleau isn't exactly Nicklas Lidstrom finishing his season in mid-June every year and having half a summer to recover. He has played a little under 10 playoff games per season on average, while Howe played a little under 8. The difference is insignificant when we're talking about months of recovery time.
     
  16. Pinkfloyd Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    60,510
    Likes Received:
    5,633
    Trophy Points:
    220
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Government Employee
    Location:
    Roseville
    Different, yes but it's the more taxing part that I'm going to take issue with. Nothing you're showing here makes that case for you. Just pointing out the length doesn't do anything. It's not as if they didn't have certain amenities on these trains to ease the burden. You make way more of that than it actually was.

    As for your second point, if all you got is one future major leaguer on half the teams, while at the same time ignoring everything else on the roster, and try to present that to me seriously then there's not going any further with you on that point. That attempt is ridiculous. Most players in that league were either way over the hill, rec league level players or attractions to sell tickets. The competition level is not something to point to as if it's some huge accomplishment as an athlete. It was a summer hobby.

    The last part is just more exaggerating but Gordie's average of 8 would lead to the season ending in those times mid-to-late April. Today's player averaging even just 10 games puts them in the middle of May. More games and less recovery even with a lengthy off-season still. Plenty of guys play through injuries that last through the previous season.
     
    Guttersniped likes this.
  17. BCShark Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,528
    Likes Received:
    182
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    patty is a nice safe player but when you jump over pucks in playoff games against teams like the red wings of course you are going to play lots of games. my god dw move on, your fierce loyalty has costed us so much already.
     
  18. Byrddog Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    5,720
    Likes Received:
    321
    Trophy Points:
    173
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    It could be worse Joe could be my kid.
     
    Forge likes this.
  19. Ryann Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    16
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    i like you. you're crazy. but i like you.
     
    DrSteveBrule likes this.
  20. Sjsharks5 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    26
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    You could definitely leave your opinion limited to the negative view of his time in Toronto and sound a lot more credible. To summarize the scope of his career as being a bum, lifelong loser for a poor franchise is not a good look. He was one of the main centerpieces of a franchise that made playoffs every year for many, many years. The numbers speak for themselves, and they don’t paint the picture of him being a bum. How you get to that conclusion is beyond me.
     
    DrSteveBrule likes this.
  21. tarheelhockey Nostrildamus

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    66,152
    Likes Received:
    61,306
    Trophy Points:
    225
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    The Triangle
    Certainly it's not more taxing to take a 2-hour plane flight than to take a 23-hour train trip. It's not more taxing to arrive at your destination at 3am than at 6am. No amenity on a train is so extreme -- especially when compared to an NHL charter plane -- that it somehow makes train travel an advantage.

    They switched from trains to planes for a reason. I have never in my life heard a pro athlete describe ground travel as preferable to planes, unless it was a John Madden situation.

    It was the highest level of baseball played in the province. MLB scouts showed up and recruited future MLB and AAA players. They sold tickets for the games. Obviously it was a low-level league, but that can also be said about college summer leagues today. The idea that semi-pro ball is a "hobby" is simply wrong. It's like saying Junior B hockey is a hobby. Low level compared to the NHL, sure, but you're still talking about the upper 1% of players in the game, playing in front of paying customers.

    The point is simply that this was the offseason training plan for Howe and a lot of his contemporaries. Playing a semi pro (or in some cases, fully professional) sport is pretty obviously going to keep a player conditioned during the offseason. These guys weren't sitting around drinking beer and watching TV all summer, they were professional athletes protecting their jobs.

    Howe's average season ended April 16th. Marleau's ended May 6th.

    Bear in mind Marleau took an entire season off from hockey at age 25, and had a half-season break at age 33.

    Let's not even get into comparisons between their needs for injury recovery.
     
  22. Pinkfloyd Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    60,510
    Likes Received:
    5,633
    Trophy Points:
    220
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Occupation:
    Government Employee
    Location:
    Roseville
    Being preferable doesn't make it less taxing on the player.

    I don't care if it's the highest level of baseball in the province. That doesn't make it more than what it was quality wise. It makes no sense to compare it to Junior B hockey because when did you ever see attractions take part in your league? Again, exaggerating something to make something more than what it was for the person involved. Yeah, they were using it for off-season conditioning but that conditioning was light on purpose.

    The last point is just needless bashing. Took a season off? Half-season break? You're really going to marginalize those things that would've made it where Marleau broke this record a year and a half ago, when one can just flip that on you to say that Howe just took two years off and quit the league? Look, it's one thing to make your case and have a difference of opinion on certain things but this last bit of yours is just insulting for the sake of it rather than actual constructive conversation and heavily disingenuous.
     
  23. MessierII Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    18,524
    Likes Received:
    3,822
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Pretty wild how few injuries he’s had.
     
    Fixxer likes this.
  24. Fixxer Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,898
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Trophy Points:
    94
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Tampa has to see the use of having a Marleau contract onboard. I would love for him to win the cup, but ending his career in San Jose and getting the most games played record would be a nice finish nonetheless.

    One way or the other, I feel like Howe played more games due to the 400+ games he also played in the WHA. Howe also played many 70 games seasons, as opposed to 82. But yeah, Marleau would still be the leader for GP in the league if he plays 45 more NHL games.
     
  25. tarheelhockey Nostrildamus

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    66,152
    Likes Received:
    61,306
    Trophy Points:
    225
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    The Triangle
    Take a deep breath.

    I am not bashing anybody. At the end of the day, this is just an abstract number we're talking about. Nobody is going to think differently of either player when the record changes, and it's all in good fun. I already said that days ago, here.

    I do take issue with the idea that today's players have a significantly more taxing physical experience than players of the 50s and 60s, when there is a metric shit-ton of evidence to the contrary. That point simply doesn't stand. It is not true.

    In regards to the point above, it is a fact that the 2005 and 2013 lockouts helped extend careers. Look at Lidstrom in 2004 versus 2006. Look at Ovechkin in 2012 versus 2013. Nobody calls that a black mark on those players, it's just a fact that it happened. Any discussion of Lidstrom's or Ovechkin's longevity as elite players has to note that they benefitted from extended breaks to recover their A-game. The same has to be noted about Marleau and any other player of that generation, not as bashing but simply as a fact.

    The following is from an article written by Gordie Howe in 1967, about the reason his generation had longer hockey careers than in the past.

    [​IMG]

    If you want to have the last word on this, as an expert witness contradicting Gordie Howe, go right ahead.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"