Sidney Crosby - best player ever?

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I don't know what those goalies were supposed to do...play into their 40's because they could because no one else was good enough to take their job? Brodeur drove a team to a Final in '95 and 2012...that's remarkable. Three distinct eras and Brodeur is a high mark of all of them...

 

[tinyzombies]

I agree.

No way a guy like Martin Brodeur could succeed post lockout.

Wait....

The last few years has gone another level- ask Rask who says he’s happy he retired when he did. Everyone can shoot and skate now. Brodeur’s ramshackle style wouldn’t work today, he’d have to adjust to the profly and I’m sure he’d agree. And that’s not a style you can just pick up.

 

[VanIslander]

Anybody who thinks Crosby stacks up - in terms of peak or longevity - with Howe, Gretzky, Hasek,... is beyond the pale.

Orr, Lemieux... you can play the: they-gimpy card, otherwise nah.

Guys like Roy and Beliveau stand in the queue...

No way on this green earth does anyone this last couple of decades replace the top candidates for best player ever.

This is ABSURD.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Guys being polite in retirement doesn't prove anything.

Fleury won his only Vezina at 38. Quick had a career resurgence at 37.

Burns is playing good hockey at 40. Pavelski is elite at 39.

 

[Steven Toast]

And he’s probably the best two way player ever.

Not even remotely close.

 

[tinyzombies]

Anybody who thinks Crosby stacks up - in terms of peak or longevity - with Howe, Gretzky, Hasek,... is beyond the pale.

Orr, Lemieux... you can play the: they-gimpy card, otherwise nah.

Guys like Roy and Beliveau stand in the queue...

That’s just pure intimidation.

 

[Despote]

The last few years has gone another level- ask Rask who says he’s happy he retired when he did. Everyone can shoot and skate now. Brodeur’s ramshackle style wouldn’t work today, he’d have to adjust to the profly and I’m sure he’d agree. And that’s not a style you can just pick up.

This discourse has happened many times before. When Bourque retired, he said that when he came in the league some guys could really skate and when he retired everyone could really skate.

20 years from now people will say the same. There's a quote from 1930s that says hockey players are getting more skilled and the best from previous eras would struggle to keep up. This isn't a new or unique phenomenom.

 

[tinyzombies]

This discourse has happened many times before. When Bourque retired, he said that when he came in the league some guys could really skate and when he retired everyone could really skate.

20 years from now people will say the same. There's a quote from 1930s that says hockey players are getting more skilled and the best from previous eras would struggle to keep up. This isn't a new or unique phenomenom.

Those players would have to prove it today some would say. Not me but some others.

 

[VanIslander]

The truth is intimidating.

Wow? Crosby isn't as great as Howe or Gretzky? Why why why... *tongue in cheek* ... gttfooh.

This is silliness.

END thread. Or show repeatedly how it ain't it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Brodeur’s ramshackle style wouldn’t work today, he’d have to adjust to the profly and I’m sure he’d agree.

Brodeur would be the best of this era too because the advent of these new shooting concepts is something he already was prepared to stop because of his post integrations/setups and what not...

And again, this is a goalie that developed in the 80's, played before the DPE, played through the DPE, played through the no-touch nuNHL, and into DPE 2.0 and was very successful in all of them...you think this era would be his undoing...?

 

[VanIslander]

I have never said anything positive about Brodeur ever ('cuz he was compared to Roy & Hasek - lol - no comparison).

But compared to today? .... dang, he and Tretiak (okay, Belfour too), .... are a tier above.

 

[daver]

Anybody who thinks Crosby stacks up - in terms of peak or longevity - with Howe, Gretzky, Hasek,... is beyond the pale.

He just finished his 19th season. He was elite in his first, had a Top 5-10 careers from his 2nd to his 18th, and was slightly less elite in his 19th.

Who else can say this?

His Hart and Art nomination resume is only bettered by members of the Big 4.

 

[DitchMarner]

Meh... this "argument" isn't dead yet?

It was a thing back in 2016/2017. At the time he was at the top of the hockey world and it was probably assumed by some that he would stay there for the foreseeable future.

However, it didn't take McDavid too long to overtake him as the clear best player. Since this whole thing basically just boils down to, "the current best is the all-time best because hockey is always improving," shouldn't the argument be made for Connor instead if it's going to be made at all?

In real, actual, physical games that those two have played against each other, McDavid has absolutely dominated him. I mean, the stats aren't close at all. I won't post them here, but it has been an extremely one-sided competition head-to-head. You can say Crosby is old now, but these two have been in the League together for a long time now. The point is that if Crosby was the "best" ever in a literal sense, he would have fared much better in those head-to-head games and would have held his own in award voting and such against him better than he has in recent years.

A few years from now, some will be asking if Bedard or whoever the next big superstar turns out to be is the best to ever play and then they'll be asking it about someone else. In essence, it's pointless.

Greatness is about transcendence and domination... no one in 2056 will care that players today can do things players couldn't do in the 1980s. People will care about Gretzky's records.

 

[jigglysquishy]

He just finished his 19th season. He was elite in his first, had a Top 5-10 careers from his 2nd to his 18th, and was slightly less elite in his 19th.

Who else can say this?

His Hart and Art nomination resume is only bettered by members of the Big 4.

It really depends on what you consider an elite season.

If you measure between top 5 Hart finishes.

Ovechkin - 2008-2015 - 8 seasons
Richard - 1945-1955 - 11 seasons
Hull - 1960-1971 - 12 seasons
Jagr - 1995-2006 - 12 seasons
Beliveau- 1955-1969 - 15 seasons
Crosby- 2007 - 2021 - 15 seasons
Lemieux- 1986-2001 - 16 seasons
Gretzky - 1980 - 1998 - 19 seasons
Howe - 1951 - 1969 - 19 seasons

Top 5 in Hart is a very high bar, but Crosby does look fantastic in this metric. It's also very arbitrary. Like a 6th place finish isn't inherently worth less than a 5th place.

 

[VanIslander]

He was twice top 5 in goals,
5 times top 5 in assists
8 times top 5 in points.

Injuries ON, .. that puts him behind Orr, Lemieux and a few stalward greats.

Certainly not in the Gretzky, Howe, Hasek tier.

 

[Henry Miller]

The comparison of eras runs both ways; sure the average player is better and faster now with better conditioning; Gretzky playing with better players now with the training and equipment that is used now would still be a monster. It’s not like he didn’t play against good players and teams back in the day anyway. Gretzky’s career and records are so absurd that he will always be the high water mark unless the complexion of the game drastically changes

 

[Henry Miller]

Meh... this "argument" isn't dead yet?

It was a thing back in 2016/2017. At the time he was at the top of the hockey world and it was probably assumed by some that he would stay there for the foreseeable future.

However, it didn't take McDavid too long to overtake him as the clear best player. Since this whole thing basically just boils down to, "the current best is the all-time best because hockey is always improving," shouldn't the argument be made for Connor instead if it's going to be made at all?

In real, actual, physical games that those two have played against each other, McDavid has absolutely dominated him. I mean, the stats aren't close at all. I won't post them here, but it has been an extremely one-sided competition head-to-head. You can say Crosby is old now, but these two have been in the League together for a long time now. The point is that if Crosby was the "best" ever in a literal sense, he would have fared much better in those head-to-head games and would have held his own in award voting and such against him better than he has in recent years.

A few years from now, some will be asking if Bedard or whoever the next big superstar turns out to be is the best to ever play and then they'll be asking it about someone else. In essence, it's pointless.

Greatness is about transcendence and domination... no one in 2056 will care that players today can do things players couldn't do in the 1980s. People will care about Gretzky's records.

I’ve always wondered what those people think about players like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Dan Marino, Steve Young, and dozens of other sports players who didn’t “benefit” from playing today. Marino and Young would thrive in today’s NFL. No reason to think Babe Ruth or Pete Rose wouldn’t be good players. The all time greats transcend

 

[daver]

It really depends on what you consider an elite season.

If you measure between top 5 Hart finishes.

Ovechkin - 2008-2015 - 8 seasons
Richard - 1945-1955 - 11 seasons
Hull - 1960-1971 - 12 seasons
Jagr - 1995-2006 - 12 seasons
Beliveau- 1955-1969 - 15 seasons
Crosby- 2007 - 2021 - 15 seasons
Lemieux- 1986-2001 - 16 seasons
Gretzky - 1980 - 1998 - 19 seasons
Howe - 1951 - 1969 - 20 seasons

Top 5 in Hart is a very high bar, but Crosby does look fantastic in this metric. It's also very arbitrary. Like a 6th place finish isn't inherently worth less than a 5th place.

Finishing in the Top 3/5 in scoring or in Hart voting in the O6 era is, statistically speaking, not the same as doing it in the current era.

Over Crosby's 19 years of elite play, he has finished, on average, 7% behind the average #1/#2 PPGs per season. His average PPG finish (among players who played 50% of the season) was 7th.

In Howe's legendary 20 years of Top 5 finishes, he finished 6% behind the average #1/#2 PPGs per season. His average PPG finish (among players who played 50% of the season) was 3rd.

There is no doubt that Crosby had more competition vying for Top 3/5 Art Ross and Hart finishes.

Obviously not arguing for Crosby over Howe in any context or metric, merely pointing out the among Crosby's current contemporaries, his track record stands out more than raw finishes would indicate.

As much as Crosby loses out on raw trophies and raw number comparisons, he should get full credit for being elite, if not quite as his peak, in an impressive number of seasons that quality-wise, is only bettered by Wayne and Howe.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He's clearly has a better regular season resume through his first nine seasons due to less injuries. Other than that, Crosby was similarly as dominant vs. his peers on a per game basis through their first nine seasons.

Only on your very deliberately and self-admitted cherry picked sample of partial seasons and mid-way through seasons, which also corresponds with his chief competition from the era having down seasons. There's really not much of an argument for Crosby over McDavid other than reaching to logical depths as that.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He just finished his 19th season. He was elite in his first, had a Top 5-10 careers from his 2nd to his 18th, and was slightly less elite in his 19th.

Who else can say this?

His Hart and Art nomination resume is only bettered by members of the Big 4.

Crosby wins points for consistency as in no bad seasons and always very good ones. However, his Post-30 resume is very bare.

Turned 30 on August 7, 1987

Since that date

0 Stanley Cups, 1 Playoff Series win
1 NHL All-Star 2nd Team
5th, 10th, 10th point finishes
0 top 10 goal finishes
7th and 7th assist finishes

I think people would be surprised at how little Crosby has accomplished since turning 30, considering he has stayed healthy and stayed good the entire time. Gretzky's post-30 resume for instance has 2 Art Rosses, NHL All-Star 1st team once and NHL All-Star 2nd team three times and a Stanley Cup Final appearance, and I don't hear Gretzky's longevity get brought up that often.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Crosby's all time spot is fairly narrow. He's either 3rd or 4th for centers. With some fringe opinions still having Morenz ahead and some people jumping the gun on McDavid.

No one will present a reasonable argument higher than 5 or lower than 10.

 

[norrisnick]

Crosby's all time spot is fairly narrow. He's either 3rd or 4th for centers. With some fringe opinions still having Morenz ahead and some people jumping the gun on McDavid.

No one will present a reasonable argument higher than 5 or lower than 10.

Only if centers count more than other positions by default even if the player isn't necessarily better.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I'm not making this post to pick on Crosby, more to point out how underrated Jagr is.

Jagr has
5 art rosses, 4 in a row, including one he won only playing 63 games
1921 points
201 playoff points
123 points at age 33/34, 66 points at age 43/44
3 pearsons, only 1 hart

2 Cups, although both being won right at the start of his career seems to be used against him.


What has Crosby done to be ranked above Jagr? I'm not saying they don't have comparable resumes, obviously Crosby has enjoyed a great career and longevity. That being said he never dominated the NHL like jagr did in the late 90s.

 

[The Macho King]

He's in that 8-12 range of players for me.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Crosby's all time spot is fairly narrow. He's either 3rd or 4th for centers. With some fringe opinions still having Morenz ahead and some people jumping the gun on McDavid.

No one will present a reasonable argument higher than 5 or lower than 10.

Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Jagr, Hasek, Bourque, Shore, McDavid, Roy, Beliveau, Morenz, Lidstrom, Plante, no logicial is a bit harsh, it's easier to boot Crosby out of the top 10 than put him in the top 5.