Should we split up TKO?

[Leonardo87]

I have to say this has been one of the more insightful threads posted in the off season. Because breaking up TKO could very well make this team better overall. That is certainly worth a debate.

 

[Cayuse]

I voted to keep them together but I think there should've been another option and that is to keep them together for the most part but split them up on occasion for a couple games just to give a different look and see what else works.

 

[Rschmitz]

I think DFC and I are talking about certain situations. TKO could go cold they have before but not long enough to warrant changing lines, if next season they have more of those cold slumps, then Coop should change things around. I just fear the secret is out, and a lot of teams are going to start to focus on them, rather than Stamkos. We will need a backup plan or at least another very strong scoring line.

I'm for splitting them up in different circumstances. As long as they don't get too far away from what already works.

This logic is stupid.

You test everything possible in the first 20 games and begin to perfect what comes out of the mess.

There's 0 GOOD reasons to NOT try splitting them and seeing what happens.

What if we find out we can create two "TKO's" by splitting the lines...

Logic people... logic....

1. Because those first 20 games count, too. Experimenting could cost wins

2. Because the general consensus is that it's the chemistry of the line that makes it work, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. The chances of recreating arguably the best line in hockey seems very unlikely

3. Because once you find something that works, you stick with it. Consistency and familiarity is very important in creating chemistry and successful line combinations.

 

[DFC]

I'm for splitting them up in different circumstances. As long as they don't get too far away from what already works.




1. Because those first 20 games count, too. Experimenting could cost wins

2. Because the general consensus is that it's the chemistry of the line that makes it work, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. The chances of recreating arguably the best line in hockey seems very unlikely

3. Because once you find something that works, you stick with it. Consistency and familiarity is very important in creating chemistry and successful line combinations.

For sure, re: bolded. I'd be shocked if there's a single person who thinks TKO shouldn't be Plan A. It's just they probably shouldn't be Plan A-through-Z.

If TKO are perfectly healthy and our offense doesn't hit a major sputter in 82 games, we should play them together for 82 games. All those of us saying "both" are saying is, if we run into a situation where it could be advantageous to split them, we should do it. We saw that situation in the finals, I think.

 

[Rschmitz]

For sure, re: bolded. I'd be shocked if there's a single person who thinks TKO shouldn't be Plan A. It's just they probably shouldn't be Plan A-through-Z.

If TKO are perfectly healthy and our offense doesn't hit a major sputter in 82 games, we should play them together for 82 games. All those of us saying "both" are saying is, if we run into a situation where it could be advantageous to split them, we should do it. We saw that situation in the finals, I think.

Fair enough, definitely the best approach I think. Would definitely vote for that if there were three options. There seems to be a split between those who would shuffle that line for a spark, and there are some who want to experiment early "first 20 games" to find two killer lines.

I voted to keep them together but I think there should've been another option and that is to keep them together for the most part but split them up on occasion for a couple games just to give a different look and see what else works.

 

[Sky04]

So why do we need to split up this line when we have a soon to be 10+million dollar player on the other? You'd think a guy who's going to get paid like Stamkos could make do with scrubs like Drouin, Killorn, Callahan and Filppula. Let's face it, everyone voting on this line being split is hinting at trying to "get Stamkos going".

I mean cool, if Kucherov and Palat make Stamkos a 90 point guy again I'm all for it, but if he's relying that much on linemates it should be reflected in his upcoming salary.

 

[Bolt32]

So why do we need to split up this line when we have a soon to be 10+million dollar player on the other? You'd think a guy who's going to get paid like Stamkos could make do with scrubs like Drouin, Killorn, Callahan and Filppula. Let's face it, everyone voting on this line being split is hinting at trying to "get Stamkos going".

I mean cool, if Kucherov and Palat make Stamkos a 90 point guy again I'm all for it, but if he's relying that much on linemates it should be reflected in his upcoming salary.

Bingo. Also with that said, Drouins game is talored made for Stamkos's game. I really want our top 6 to be in a couple of years.

Palat-Johnson-Kucherov with

Erne-Stamkos-Drouin.

Which would be a MSL-Stamkos like combination with Erne filling the role of what Downie did when that line was dominate, just Erne I believe has more skill than Downie. That is a hell of a top 6. Though if Stamkos wants 10+ million a year, he needs to be that dominate player without the likes of a Drouin, Kucherov, Johnson and Palat to earn that. Which is something he has yet to show me.

 

[Werewolf]

So why do we need to split up this line when we have a soon to be 10+million dollar player on the other? You'd think a guy who's going to get paid like Stamkos could make do with scrubs like Drouin, Killorn, Callahan and Filppula. Let's face it, everyone voting on this line being split is hinting at trying to "get Stamkos going".

I mean cool, if Kucherov and Palat make Stamkos a 90 point guy again I'm all for it, but if he's relying that much on linemates it should be reflected in his upcoming salary.

I believe the appropriate terminology to answer the bolded is: "synergy".

 

[DFC]

So why do we need to split up this line when we have a soon to be 10+million dollar player on the other? You'd think a guy who's going to get paid like Stamkos could make do with scrubs like Drouin, Killorn, Callahan and Filppula. Let's face it, everyone voting on this line being split is hinting at trying to "get Stamkos going".

I mean cool, if Kucherov and Palat make Stamkos a 90 point guy again I'm all for it, but if he's relying that much on linemates it should be reflected in his upcoming salary.

This, sadly, is way too true. Except the part about making Stamkos a 90 point guy. Still don't think it'd be worth it. Let Stamkos get his 75 while TKO tears up the league.
And it's not like we don't/won't (at some point) have other options for his wingers.

 

[The Macho King]

Also - to the "split them up and we can have TWO TKOs!!!" brigade -

It shows an incredible ignorance at the level of chemistry those three have on both ends of the ice. You don't get two TKOs - you get one and thank the good Amon Ra that you are one of the lucky few teams in the league to get such a line.

 

[These Are The Days]

Also - to the "split them up and we can have TWO TKOs!!!" brigade -

It shows an incredible ignorance at the level of chemistry those three have on both ends of the ice. You don't get two TKOs - you get one and thank the good Amon Ra that you are one of the lucky few teams in the league to get such a line.

Johnson and Palat drive that line. Simply for Kucherov he gets the benefit. That's not to diss Nikita either, but ANYONE could plug in with those two and be productive. We've seen Callahan do it, we've seen Stamkos do it, we saw St. Louis do it. Now lucky for us and Nikita... I think he can score in bunches no matter who he is playing with so long as they can keep up with him. He is very versatile.

Any good coach sticks with what works so Coop didn't mess with anything last year. But the lesson we learned in the SCF was that the Filppula-Stamkos-Killorn connection is not sustainable. They're too streaky. We needed Stamkos in particular to get going and we got nothing out of him. I can't put full blame on his linemates but the captain sucked out loud in the SCF. We lost because he didn't pull his weight while our top line went down with injury.

Needless to say that has to be fixed. We need 2 new players for Stamkos and I'd say we need it ASAP. The most logical thing for Cooper to do is to put Drouin and Stamkos together full time. Hell, even make them roommates for all I care. All you have to do is see what happens. I personally think it's going to be amazing.

But for some inexplicable reason I think we actually CAN have more than one TKO. Drouin and Stamkos were freaking magic together. It didn't happen much but it was INSTANT results the moment those two stepped on the ice together. We don't necessarily HAVE TO move anyone if Jon and Steven are good enough together. Someone like Callahan will provide enough muscle so the two-headed monster can produce night in and night out.

But assume Callahan struggles at some point during the year... you could swap him and Kucherov off the lines and I think not only would Kucherov continue to play well, but it would reverse Callahan's fortunes as well.

If we find that it's more effective then by God stick with it.

This preseason should see as much experimentation as possible so we can preemptively figure out what will and will not work immediately and what needs more time.

 

[Rschmitz]

Johnson and Palat drive that line. Simply for Kucherov he gets the benefit. That's not to diss Nikita either, but ANYONE could plug in with those two and be productive. We've seen Callahan do it, we've seen Stamkos do it, we saw St. Louis do it. Now lucky for us and Nikita... I think he can score in bunches no matter who he is playing with so long as they can keep up with him. He is very versatile.

Any good coach sticks with what works so Coop didn't mess with anything last year. But the lesson we learned in the SCF was that the Filppula-Stamkos-Killorn connection is not sustainable. They're too streaky. We needed Stamkos in particular to get going and we got nothing out of him. I can't put full blame on his linemates but the captain sucked out loud in the SCF. We lost because he didn't pull his weight while our top line went down with injury.

Needless to say that has to be fixed. We need 2 new players for Stamkos and I'd say we need it ASAP. The most logical thing for Cooper to do is to put Drouin and Stamkos together full time. Hell, even make them roommates for all I care. All you have to do is see what happens. I personally think it's going to be amazing.

But for some inexplicable reason I think we actually CAN have more than one TKO. Drouin and Stamkos were freaking magic together. It didn't happen much but it was INSTANT results the moment those two stepped on the ice together. We don't necessarily HAVE TO move anyone if Jon and Steven are good enough together. Someone like Callahan will provide enough muscle so the two-headed monster can produce night in and night out.

But assume Callahan struggles at some point during the year... you could swap him and Kucherov off the lines and I think not only would Kucherov continue to play well, but it would reverse Callahan's fortunes as well.

If we find that it's more effective then by God stick with it.

This preseason should see as much experimentation as possible so we can preemptively figure out what will and will not work immediately and what needs more time.

Palat and Johnson definitely have the most chemistry, and have put in a lot more man hours together while recognizing each others tendencies. I think the triplet name sake is well earned however, Kucherov's style of play and skill set compliment the other two perfectly, and while I do think you could plug anyone in with Johnson and Palat and they'd find success, Kucherov made his linemates significantly better as well.

 

[Leonardo87]

Johnson and Palat drive that line. Simply for Kucherov he gets the benefit. That's not to diss Nikita either, but ANYONE could plug in with those two and be productive. We've seen Callahan do it, we've seen Stamkos do it, we saw St. Louis do it. Now lucky for us and Nikita... I think he can score in bunches no matter who he is playing with so long as they can keep up with him. He is very versatile.

Any good coach sticks with what works so Coop didn't mess with anything last year. But the lesson we learned in the SCF was that the Filppula-Stamkos-Killorn connection is not sustainable. They're too streaky. We needed Stamkos in particular to get going and we got nothing out of him. I can't put full blame on his linemates but the captain sucked out loud in the SCF. We lost because he didn't pull his weight while our top line went down with injury.

Needless to say that has to be fixed. We need 2 new players for Stamkos and I'd say we need it ASAP. The most logical thing for Cooper to do is to put Drouin and Stamkos together full time. Hell, even make them roommates for all I care. All you have to do is see what happens. I personally think it's going to be amazing.

But for some inexplicable reason I think we actually CAN have more than one TKO. Drouin and Stamkos were freaking magic together. It didn't happen much but it was INSTANT results the moment those two stepped on the ice together. We don't necessarily HAVE TO move anyone if Jon and Steven are good enough together. Someone like Callahan will provide enough muscle so the two-headed monster can produce night in and night out.

But assume Callahan struggles at some point during the year... you could swap him and Kucherov off the lines and I think not only would Kucherov continue to play well, but it would reverse Callahan's fortunes as well.

If we find that it's more effective then by God stick with it.

This preseason should see as much experimentation as possible so we can preemptively figure out what will and will not work immediately and what needs more time.

I think Callahan should be with Stamkos to start the season so I agree with you. Do I want to see Callahan do well? of course, this team wins when he does, but also will be better for Stamkos and numbers have proven that. I would also like to see Drouin up there, we saw that line together for a short time and it looked very good, and it produced but kept getting broken up likely due to Coopers short leash on Drouin. It will solve a lot of those possession issues if Drouin is up there, plus Droun will have an elite goal scorer to work with, along with an elite grinder to do the dirty work on a high level, who also is a good goal scorer with a good shot.

Cooper had moved Callahan up and down from the Stamkos line to the 3rd line not because of Callahan's play but because anytime he moved up with Stamkos, the 3rd line went to crap, so there is an issue with the 3rd line, but if Killorn and Flip cannot get that line going without Callahan then that is a problem.

As per TKO, who knows if they will have the same magic next season, what if they take a step back, or other teams start adjusting. I just feel we need to have two strong lines to rely on scoring, not just one and a Bi polar one. We lost the cup because TKO was basically out of the picture due to injuries, and we did not have another dominating line to do the job, and those games were so reachable to come back and win. But i do have a lot of faith in the Drouin - Stamkos - Callahan line to be very good and more consistent.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Don't fix what's not broken. With that said if they falter for a decent amount of games--break them up.

 

[These Are The Days]

I think Callahan should be with Stamkos to start the season so I agree with you. Do I want to see Callahan do well? of course, this team wins when he does, but also will be better for Stamkos and numbers have proven that. I would also like to see Drouin up there, we saw that line together for a short time and it looked very good, and it produced but kept getting broken up likely due to Coopers short leash on Drouin. It will solve a lot of those possession issues if Drouin is up there, plus Droun will have an elite goal scorer to work with, along with an elite grinder to do the dirty work on a high level, who also is a good goal scorer with a good shot.

Cooper had moved Callahan up and down from the Stamkos line to the 3rd line not because of Callahan's play but because anytime he moved up with Stamkos, the 3rd line went to crap, so there is an issue with the 3rd line, but if Killorn and Flip cannot get that line going without Callahan then that is a problem.

As per TKO, who knows if they will have the same magic next season, what if they take a step back, or other teams start adjusting. I just feel we need to have two strong lines to rely on scoring, not just one and a Bi polar one. We lost the cup because TKO was basically out of the picture due to injuries, and we did not have another dominating line to do the job, and those games were so reachable to come back and win. But i do have a lot of faith in the Drouin - Stamkos - Callahan line to be very good and more consistent.

Well you can't split Callahan in two unfortunately. I think Namestnikov is going to make the team (unless Cooper is going to keep Brown and Patch up here full time) and I think he would gel with Killorn and Filppula. He's the north-south player that line needs to stay consistent. And being a good two-way forward already, he should fit in with the motif of Cooper using them as a shutdown line. But Vladdy's role with the team will ultimately up to Cooper.

You can plug in Condra with the Killorn and Filppula combination and I think it would actually work very well. He's gonna wind up being our bottom 6 version of Callahan in the sense that you'll put him where needed and he'll get the job done. I personally think Ryan is better off with the top lines raising hell. Plus I'd hate to be paying a 3rd liner $5.8 million AAV just in principle.

Regardless of where we shift Callahan between the top 2 lines you could use for our bottom 6

Killorn-Filppula-Namestnikov/Condra
Patch-Boyle-Brown/Namestnikov/Condra

I think Erik is in for a heck of a season. I really think he stands a real shot at a dozen goals or more. Killorn and Filppula can both swing between 3rd line and top 2 if necessary. I must say the versatility of our lineup is second to no one.

And just for fun... new line combination in case of a Johnson injury

Drouin-Namestnikov-Kucherov

Palat-Stamkos-Callahan

D0000oo0o00oooo00000d!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Leonardo87]

Well you can't split Callahan in two unfortunately. I think Namestnikov is going to make the team (unless Cooper is going to keep Brown and Patch up here full time) and I think he would gel with Killorn and Filppula. He's the north-south player that line needs to stay consistent. And being a good two-way forward already, he should fit in with the motif of Cooper using them as a shutdown line. But Vladdy's role with the team will ultimately up to Cooper.

You can plug in Condra with the Killorn and Filppula combination and I think it would actually work very well. He's gonna wind up being our bottom 6 version of Callahan in the sense that you'll put him where needed and he'll get the job done. I personally think Ryan is better off with the top lines raising hell. Plus I'd hate to be paying a 3rd liner $5.8 million AAV just in principle.

Regardless of where we shift Callahan between the top 2 lines you could use for our bottom 6

Killorn-Filppula-Namestnikov/Condra
Patch-Boyle-Brown/Namestnikov/Condra

I think Erik is in for a heck of a season. I really think he stands a real shot at a dozen goals or more. Killorn and Filppula can both swing between 3rd line and top 2 if necessary. I must say the versatility of our lineup is second to no one.

And just for fun... new line combination in case of a Johnson injury

Drouin-Namestnikov-Kucherov

Palat-Stamkos-Callahan

D0000oo0o00oooo00000d!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's my whole point, Callahan is getting paid nearly 6 million with a full NMC, he had 54 points in 77(76 games really) that is a .70 PPG average, which he has averaged over the last 5 seasons. That is living up to his contract. 50 points or more and he is golden. If he hits 60 points while playing his two way style, then that contract is a steal. I think if he was with Stamkos the entire season, he would of done it this past season. I think people forget he started the season with 21 points in his first 20 games. Then he gets moved to the 3rd line, come on now.

Reading some posts here and it's not because Callahan is not good enough to be in the top 6, it's really because our 3rd line is putrid without him, but Cooper needs to fix that while keeping Callahan in the top 6, and keep a solid 3rd line. If you look back there was one time the 3rd line was good without Callahan, it had Killorn - Vladdy - Drouin on it, but we are not putting Flip with Stamkos. Also keep Paquette off the 3rd line.

Oh and that Pallahan with Stamkos line, re-watch the Montreal and Vancouver games from the beginning of the season to get the best of that line, damn it was good. TKO has locked up one of the lines, so it really leaves little manuerving if we are not going to break up the triplets, but there are certainly options we should look at in case they get cold, or one of them goes down with an injury.

As per Condra, already a huge upgrade from Morrow. We should be able to throw out 4 lines that can all score, so should be exciting next season, if everyone stays healthy for the most part.

 

[Sky04]

Johnson and Palat drive that line. Simply for Kucherov he gets the benefit. That's not to diss Nikita either, but ANYONE could plug in with those two and be productive. We've seen Callahan do it, we've seen Stamkos do it, we saw St. Louis do it. Now lucky for us and Nikita... I think he can score in bunches no matter who he is playing with so long as they can keep up with him. He is very versatile.

No, Stamkos didn't work well with them or they would've stuck with that, they tried it, it didn't work. You don't give enough credit to Kucherov and St.louis for being extremely versatile players with a huge skillset, both of those players have high hockey IQ, with great shooting and passing abilities. St.louis has been able to play on any line with any linemates and produce during his entire 14 years here, Kucherov was making elite plays with 4th liners in his rookie year, it's no coincidence you get the results you do when you stick them with Johnson-Palat.

 

[Leonardo87]

No, Stamkos didn't work well with them or they would've stuck with that, they tried it, it didn't work. You don't give enough credit to Kucherov and St.louis for being extremely versatile players with a huge skillset, both of those players have high hockey IQ, with great shooting and passing abilities. St.louis has been able to play on any line with any linemates and produce during his entire 14 years here, Kucherov was making elite plays with 4th liners in his rookie year, it's no coincidence you get the results you do when you stick them with Johnson-Palat.

Stamkos worked very well with Palat and/or Kucherov . He was not good with Flip or Johnson likely because of them all being centers. There was just something about moving those guys out of their natural position.

 

[These Are The Days]

No, Stamkos didn't work well with them or they would've stuck with that, they tried it, it didn't work. You don't give enough credit to Kucherov and St.louis for being extremely versatile players with a huge skillset, both of those players have high hockey IQ, with great shooting and passing abilities. St.louis has been able to play on any line with any linemates and produce during his entire 14 years here, Kucherov was making elite plays with 4th liners in his rookie year, it's no coincidence you get the results you do when you stick them with Johnson-Palat.

I had a long tangent about how versatile Kucherov is and how we could use it for Callahan's benefit were he struggling on the Stamkos line. You'd swing Kucherov to a different line and he'd stay productive with a Stamkos/Drouin combination if needed. But I chopped it because I felt it would've been long winded and redundant.

All I really want is for Stamkos to stay productive like all the players in the TKO line did. Being our (supposed) best player I'd expect that of him. If Callahan stays productive that's extra bonus.

Goes to show how spoiled I've gotten. Best offense in the NHL and I want more lol.

Nice little story. When I first got Lady Sunny to watch hockey I'd say "Watch 86, Kucherov." "Ok I'm looking and he's not there" "well he went off the ice" "uhh ok what's so good about him?" "just wait he's gonna do something awesome" about 2 shifts later out would come Kucherov. "Kucherov there he is! 86! 86!!!!" There he would storm in on a self-created breakaway and nearly score. Get the puck back a few seconds later and shoot again. To which Lady Sunny would go "WOAH!!" he'd score a goal, then another and it's like "Damn baby you weren't kidding!!"

 

[The Macho King]

I had a long tangent about how versatile Kucherov is and how we could use it for Callahan's benefit were he struggling on the Stamkos line. You'd swing Kucherov to a different line and he'd stay productive with a Stamkos/Drouin combination if needed. But I chopped it because I felt it would've been long winded and redundant.

All I really want is for Stamkos to stay productive like all the players in the TKO line did. Being our (supposed) best player I'd expect that of him. If Callahan stays productive that's extra bonus.

Goes to show how spoiled I've gotten. Best offense in the NHL and I want more lol.

Nice little story. When I first got Lady Sunny to watch hockey I'd say "Watch 86, Kucherov." "Ok I'm looking and he's not there" "well he went off the ice" "uhh ok what's so good about him?" "just wait he's gonna do something awesome" about 2 shifts later out would come Kucherov. "Kucherov there he is! 86! 86!!!!" There he would storm in on a self-created breakaway and nearly score. Get the puck back a few seconds later and shoot again. To which Lady Sunny would go "WOAH!!" he'd score a goal, then another and it's like "Damn baby you weren't kidding!!"

Similar story - I got my brother into hockey over the past year when I was visiting late in the season. Made him watch some games with me - after the second game I asked him who his favorite player was and he said Kucherov.

He doesn't understand my love of Hedman, though, so I have some work to do with him still.

 

[Bolt32]

Similar story - I got my brother into hockey over the past year when I was visiting late in the season. Made him watch some games with me - after the second game I asked him who his favorite player was and he said Kucherov.

He doesn't understand my love of Hedman, though, so I have some work to do with him still.

Best break out pass in the world should do the trick to get lightning fans to love Hedman. Least it has always worked with me.

 

[Stamper]

The thing that makes this thread weird to me is that people seem to think that disassembling TKO in order to try out new line-combinations will forever screw up the chemistry between TKO and they'll never be able to go back to it....

This just made me chuckle all the time during the thread.

 

[xteesy]

The thing that makes this thread weird to me is that people seem to think that disassembling TKO in order to try out new line-combinations will forever screw up the chemistry between TKO and they'll never be able to go back to it....

This just made me chuckle all the time during the thread.

That's why I stopped chiming in lol...

People think if you switch something up it'll be a curse and **** will hit the fan or something.... *sigh*

 

[Leonardo87]

So, um do we now or let them work it out?

 

[DFC]

I don't think it matters. Not until we find some players willing to get their nose dirty in front. Palat had some moments tonight.

Can anyone remember a SINGLE rebound opportunity? I can't. That's a big problem. Until that's sorted out, changing up the lines will be sort of like changing the tires on a car that's out of gas.