Should they be in the HHoF?

[Hockey Outsider]

The Hall has too many stats compilers that just hung on forever to reach certain milestones that served as criteria at the time. There are 13 retired players who scored 500 or more Goals in 1200 or fewer games and 12 of them are in the Hall of Fame. The ONLY one who isn't??? Peter Bondra

Bondra looks HOF-worthy if you look at goal-scoring in isolation, but there are a number of weaknesses in his resume:

• Despite his great goal-scoring numbers, his (comparatively) poor playmaking meant he was never a top ten scorer in his entire career. He only placed in the top 20 twice (T-11th in 1998 and T-18th in 2001). Two times as a top 20 scorer isn't good enough for an all-offense forward. Nor did he play long enough to get big career totals - he finished with under 900 points.
• During his ten year prime (1993 to 2002), he was 5th in the NHL in goals, but only 27th in scoring overall, behind a bunch of non-HOF players like Turgeon, Fleury, Roenick, Mogilny, Tkachuk, Damphousse, Weight, Amonte and LeClair. Some of those players may eventually make the Hall, but getting outscored by Damphousse (who was a much better two-way player), Weight and Amonte hurts.
• He was never considered the best player at his position. He never placed in the top three in the year-end all-star voting. He finished 4th or 5th a few times, but I don't think that screams HOF. He also never got much consideration for the Hart (he finished 6th once year and never again got any serious consideration).
• Bondra wasn't a great defensive player. Yes, he was used on the penalty kill a fair bit as a threat to score shorthanded goals, but this isn't a case where the player brings more value to the team than his offensive stats suggest.
• His playoff resume is disappointing. 56 points in 80 games is poor for a player of his calibre. His team only made it out of the first round twice in his career and he missed games and was way down on the scoring chart both times (1994 and 1998).

Is Bondra a HOF goal-scorer? Yes. But looking at everything else in his resume (playmaking, overall point production, Hart and all-star consideration, defensive play, playoff resume) - he's not really close.

 

[Machinehead]

Clearly, you've never looked at who is in the hall of fame.

I guess that's a fair point but it depends on how you conceptualize "should."

Should based on established standards or should based on my own opinion?

 

[Machinehead]

Also, I would say that I was probably too hard on Mogilny. The first player to defect is pretty significant in NHL history.

 

[AfroThunder396]

None of them make they cut. They are all Hall of Very Good.

Vanbiesbrouck doesn't make the cut based on play alone, factoring in his other complications and he'll never even get brought up.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Fedorov was the only other big name to defect.

Fetisov

 

[GRob83]

Bondra looks HOF-worthy if you look at goal-scoring in isolation, but there are a number of weaknesses in his resume:

• Despite his great goal-scoring numbers, his (comparatively) poor playmaking meant he was never a top ten scorer in his entire career. He only placed in the top 20 twice (T-11th in 1998 and T-18th in 2001). Two times as a top 20 scorer isn't good enough for an all-offense forward. Nor did he play long enough to get big career totals - he finished with under 900 points.
• During his ten year prime (1993 to 2002), he was 5th in the NHL in goals, but only 27th in scoring overall, behind a bunch of non-HOF players like Turgeon, Fleury, Roenick, Mogilny, Tkachuk, Damphousse, Weight, Amonte and LeClair. Some of those players may eventually make the Hall, but getting outscored by Damphousse (who was a much better two-way player), Weight and Amonte hurts.
• He was never considered the best player at his position. He never placed in the top three in the year-end all-star voting. He finished 4th or 5th a few times, but I don't think that screams HOF. He also never got much consideration for the Hart (he finished 6th once year and never again got any serious consideration).
• Bondra wasn't a great defensive player. Yes, he was used on the penalty kill a fair bit as a threat to score shorthanded goals, but this isn't a case where the player brings more value to the team than his offensive stats suggest.
• His playoff resume is disappointing. 56 points in 80 games is poor for a player of his calibre. His team only made it out of the first round twice in his career and he missed games and was way down on the scoring chart both times (1994 and 1998).

Is Bondra a HOF goal-scorer? Yes. But looking at everything else in his resume (playmaking, overall point production, Hart and all-star consideration, defensive play, playoff resume) - he's not really close.

I personally value goals more than assists. Not all points are created equal. Bondra probably would have had 1,000 points and 540+ goals if it weren't for lockouts. He should have come over a couple years sooner as well considering he didn't become an NHL regular until he was 22 and started a streak of 15 straight years with at least 20 goals the following season. He was one of the best goal scorers of the dead puck era, from 94-02 only Jagr had more goals.

 

[Albatros]

Fetisov

Fetisov negotiated a legal transfer as did a number of other players at the time. Moreover, they did so before Mogilny defected. His actions became a mostly political narrative and had no real impact on the NHL careers of these other players.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Pierre Turgeon - blew the doors off on his way into the league, but had little longevity. I say no.
Jeremy Roenick - I think so, but barely. You could argue my criticism of Turgeon applies to Roenick as well, but he had more longevity and had more team success.
Keith Tkachuk - No, not quite
Brian Propp - Would be in if Philly won some cups, but no hardware means not quite enough.
Alexander Mogilny - should be a crime that he isn't in already
Theo Fleury - I hate Theo Fleury. I hate him for scoring a goal that knocked the Oilers out of the playoffs in overtime. I hate that he scored so many goals against us. I hate that he threw away his career thanks to drugs. I hate that he is an idiot on social media. But the man should be in the HHOF easily.
Sergei Gonchar - Should be a lock as well. He would have had some Norris trophies if not for Lidstrom and Pronger
John Vanbiesbrouck - No. Not much discussion here for me. He had a decent career, but was a 1B for most of his career. A strong few seasons in Florida made for great recognition, but he wasn't elite, and wasn't even a 1A starter for long enough for this.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

I voted for Turgeon, Roenick, and of course Mogilny. I think all 3 definitely deserve to be there.

I lean toward inducting Theo Fleury and Sergei Gonchar too.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Mogilny should be in by now, Russia’s first defector should have him in alone, add on the fact he was a really good hockey player and put up good numbers during his time in the NHL; it’s a shame he’s not it yet but Kevin Lowe is.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Only Mogilny and maybe Gonchar

 

[Byron Bitz]

Mogilny being the best player outside of the HOF is nothing compared to baseball where Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Sosa and McGwire have all been snubbed by the HOF

 

[ScaredStreit]

None of the above.

 

[North Cole]

Clearly, you've never looked at who is in the hall of fame.

Maybe those players shouldn't be in either. A few bad inductees doesn't mean we should keep bringing in more bad inductees.

 

[sansabri]

yes to all except Gonchar. the hardware argument is junk

 

[Regal]

Mogilny tends to get pretty overrated whenever this comes up. He was a Hall of Fame talent, no doubt, but really didn't have many years where he played like it and/or stayed heathy, and he has a poor playoff record. Maybe his defection pushes him over the edge for contributions outside of his on-ice performance, and sure if you judge him against the worst players in he should be in, but I really don't see how he's a clear Hall of Famer otherwise or any better than the rest here

 

[treple13]

I hate Theo Fleury. I hate him for scoring a goal that knocked the Oilers out of the playoffs in overtime

As a Flames fan, I wish this is actually what happened. Flames didn't win that series

 

[Perennial]

Turgeon; 1st overall pick in '87

1327 points in 1294 regular season games (1.03 PPG)
97 points in 109 playoff games (.89 PPG)


Modano; 1st overall pick in '88

1374 points in 1499 regular season games (0.92 PPG)
146 points in 176 playoff games (.83 PPG)


Sundin; 1st overall pick in '89

1349 points in 1346 regular season games (1 PPG)
82 points in 91 playoff games (.9 PPG)

 

[Hockeyholic]

Barasso needs to be in.

Hextall won the Vezina & Conn Smythe and yet he's never been seriously considered. I guess the problem is he won said awards in the same season.