In Order from first to last:
Shore: 4 Hart trophies. Scoring like mad in a time when Defensemen could not score. The guy was the total package. Leader, physical monster, Defensive Demon, and could score. Violent, tough and aggressive; would have probably won 7 or 8 Norrises had they been around when he played
Harvey: Scoring like he did before his time was remarkable. Above all else, he was nearly Perfect Defensively. Arguably the best defensive player and penalty killer ever; slowed the game to a crawl or sped it up with great breakout passes as needed; won 7 Norris trophies in 8 years; 5-time Hart finalist; 11-time all-star
Bourque: The best example of consistent excellence on the blueline; won 5 Norrises; despite not winning the Cup with Boston, he was an excellent outstanding playoff performer; people severely underrate how tough and aggressive Bourque was in his prime. Bourque had a higher peak value than anyone since Orr (his 1990 season was probably the best by a defenseman in the past 30 years) and has more longevity (he was first, second or third for the Norris in FIFTEEN different seasons and was a 19-time all-star. 2 time Hart Runner up(One was stolen by Messier and Edmonton Journalists who intentionally left Bourque off the Ballot. lost by 1 point)
Potvin: Excellent defensive player; a tough, aggressive checker and fighter; excellent goal-scoring and playmaking; captained the Islanders to four Stanley Cups; won 3 Norrises. 8-time all-star and 2-time Hart finalist. Not Quite as great as Bourque
Kelly: Four time Hart finalist. Excellent defensive player, although a little passive. Great playmaker. Played half his career as a Center though.
I'd agree with your entire post.... And for the inevitable Lidstrom addition.. he would be above Kelly and below Potvin if he was on this list.
I love Lidstrom, but I'd take Orr, the guys on this list, and Robinson before him.I'd agree with your entire post.... And for the inevitable Lidstrom addition.. he would be above Kelly and below Potvin if he was on this list.
I love Lidstrom, but I'd take Orr, the guys on this list, and Robinson before him.
So would I..... I just said he was 5th of 6th on THIS list.... I'd still take Chelios over Lidstrom....
But I agree with an above poster... he still has time to grow. Bourque to me is still quite a bit ahead of Lidstrom. And Chelios, Robinson and Potvin too. But if Lidstrom keeps it up for 2 or 3 or 4 more years as a top D-Man in the NHL maybe he leapfrogs all of those guys.
The old Norris voting since 2001:
2000-2001
NORRIS: Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 600 (56-5-1-0-0); Ray Bourque, COL 251 (4-16-12-10-9); Scott Stevens, N.J. 203 (1-15-14-4-6)
Shore - The only one who can lay claim to being the best hockey player on the planet for a significant portion of his career.
Harvey - Possibly the best player on the greatest dynasty ever. Should have won some Hart trophies, but voters tended to vote for high scoring forwards during his era. May also have been a victim of a Hab vote split during his best years costing him Harts.
Potvin - At his best, he was better than Bourque. Put him ahead of Bourque for this reason, plus he added an element of meaness to his game that Bourque lacked.
Bourque - Probably the most consistent of the five, and he was better for a longer period of time, but IMO his peak wasn't at the same level as the other three. Outside of the year he almost won MVP, Bourque was never as good as Potvin was during his 3 Norris years. Basically putting him ahead of Potvin would be akin to putting Dionne ahead of Lafleur. Dionne was better for longer, but Lafleur at his best was far better.
Kelly - Really good, but was consistently outplayed by Harvey during the same era. The other four are arguable when it comes to their ranking, but IMO Kelly is a notch below.
Shore - The only one who can lay claim to being the best hockey player on the planet for a significant portion of his career.
Harvey - Possibly the best player on the greatest dynasty ever. Should have won some Hart trophies, but voters tended to vote for high scoring forwards during his era. May also have been a victim of a Hab vote split during his best years costing him Harts.
Potvin - At his best, he was better than Bourque. Put him ahead of Bourque for this reason, plus he added an element of meaness to his game that Bourque lacked.
Bourque - Probably the most consistent of the five, and he was better for a longer period of time, but IMO his peak wasn't at the same level as the other three. Outside of the year he almost won MVP, Bourque was never as good as Potvin was during his 3 Norris years. Basically putting him ahead of Potvin would be akin to putting Dionne ahead of Lafleur. Dionne was better for longer, but Lafleur at his best was far better.
Kelly - Really good, but was consistently outplayed by Harvey during the same era. The other four are arguable when it comes to their ranking, but IMO Kelly is a notch below.
Just out of curiosity, have there ever been a more durable player over such a long span as him? I think 2/3 of the games he's "missed" in his career were simply to give him a night off before the playoffs.
Not that I expect many of the other to have done so, but Lidstrom has never missed a playoff game.
Lidstrom is still on the outside looking in when it comes to the top 5 defensemen of all time.
He is still in the "Robinson/Park/Kelly" area in the top 10. Not top 5 all time.
3 more Norris trophies and a Hart runner up might propel Lidstrom past Potvin, but his Norris trophies are so weak in regards to others.
Lidstrom is very hard to really guage because at 38 he's basically still in his peak. Most of the greats had a span of several years where they were clearly at their best. The Lidstrom of 2008 plays at the same level that the Lidstrom on 1995 did. He just seems to have had a low peak relative to his peers but probably the longest peak of any of them. His style of play doesn't rely on being physical or especially fast so even as his body starts to decline his positioning and intelligence are as sharp as ever so he just doesn't degrade. Sometimes I think he could play another 10 years if he wanted to and still be at about the same level he is now. He probably wouldn't keep winning awards simply because some others will invariably have started peaking by then.
I doubt he ever gets Hart consideration. He's the top defenseman scorer in the NHL, unquestioned best player on the top team, and has an NHL-best +/- which is more than double the closest defenseman on his team and 33% higher than 2nd place on his team yet the only Wing ever mentioned in Hart talk is Zetterberg. I honestly think Lidstrom would have to score 100pts to get consideration with his quiet, below-the-radar, dominating playstyle.
Not to mention he technically did win a Hart trophy, and he was top 3 for the Norris in 15 different seasons.Bourque's 17 straight seasons as a post-season All-Star is pretty damn impressive too.
Add to that it's next to impossible for defensemen to get Hart consideration.
It's a tough situation though - on one hand, winning Norris trophies against weak competition does hurt his resume, but at the same time it's unfair to penalize him for not having the opportunity to play against better players.
I disagree. Bourque's 1990 season was the best of either Potvin or Bourque's peaks. The Dionne comparison is very far from the truth. Potvin's best year was not better than Bourque in 1990. Potvin had a Dynasty of hall of fame players to play with, while Bourque had teams he personally took the extra mile that lacked the star power.
Replace either player on their respective teams, and the outcomes are close to the same. Bourque wins 4 cups while Potvin tries to carry a one line Bruins squad on his back. Their playoff numbers are close to even.
Potvin did indeed have a meaner streak than Bourque(Caused him injury woes for his troubles), However, he also had double the amount of penalty minutes, while Bourque played a hybrid of "bend don't break" poke checking and used his physicality as well when the situation called for it. He was one of the best defensive defensemen of his time, as well as the best offensive defenseman outside of Paul Coffey in his time.
Also, Longevity and consistency play a big part in judging careers(Lidstrom is higher on the list than others with better peaks because of this). Potvin's Career was cut shorter for a reason. His style of play. The rough game takes a toll on the body. Bourque's style, while just as effective defensively, let him play like an iron man for 22 years vs Potvin's 15.
But hey, Opinions are opinions. I respect yours
The best case scenario here is to call them a very close call, almost a tie for what they brought to the table.
Lidstrom is very hard to really guage because at 38 he's basically still in his peak. Most of the greats had a span of several years where they were clearly at their best. The Lidstrom of 2008 plays at the same level that the Lidstrom on 1995 did. He just seems to have had a low peak relative to his peers but probably the longest peak of any of them. His style of play doesn't rely on being physical or especially fast so even as his body starts to decline his positioning and intelligence are as sharp as ever so he just doesn't degrade. Sometimes I think he could play another 10 years if he wanted to and still be at about the same level he is now. He probably wouldn't keep winning awards simply because some others will invariably have started peaking by then.
I doubt he ever gets Hart consideration. He's the top defenseman scorer in the NHL, unquestioned best player on the top team, and has an NHL-best +/- which is more than double the closest defenseman on his team and 33% higher than 2nd place on his team yet the only Wing ever mentioned in Hart talk is Zetterberg. I honestly think Lidstrom would have to score 100pts to get consideration with his quiet, below-the-radar, dominating playstyle.
Since 1990, here's all the defencemen that have finished top 5 in Hart balloting:I doubt he ever gets Hart consideration. He's the top defenseman scorer in the NHL, unquestioned best player on the top team, and has an NHL-best +/- which is more than double the closest defenseman on his team and 33% higher than 2nd place on his team yet the only Wing ever mentioned in Hart talk is Zetterberg. I honestly think Lidstrom would have to score 100pts to get consideration with his quiet, below-the-radar, dominating playstyle.
Good post. Ill just answer the part I bolded. His injuries over the years had hampered him. He was playing in pain much of the time, and still was great. His playing style led to this. He decided he did not like the way he was progressing(His very words) and decided to hang them up rather than fade away.Personally, I think Potvin was better in 1978 and 1979 than Bourque in 1991(his almost MVP year). A case could also be made for 1976. As good defensively and better offensively, plus more physical. He averaged over +60 in those two years.
Potvin's playoff numbers are slightly better on a PPG basis, but I agree, the Isles still win the 4 cups with Bourque. Just because I think Potvin is better, doesn't mean I don't think Bourque was also almost as good and IMO they are extremely close. Pretty much at least 95% of the player I thought Potvin was.
Potvin was still an excellent player when he retired. Never understood why he chose to quit. He pretty much played a full season in his last year and was still as good or better than many of his comtemporaries were at 35 such as Robinson.
Agreed, I think it's very close between the two. Very arguable as to who was better.
I think the voters are way too stats happy. Back in the O6 days, voters watched a player at least 14 times a year. Now, a voter out east might see a Niedermayer or a Pronger five times a year. You can't evaluate a guy's worth based on stats alone, moreso for defencemen than forwards.Since 1990, here's all the defencemen that have finished top 5 in Hart balloting:
`90: Bourque 2nd
`91: Bourque 4th
`95: Coffey 4th
`00: Pronger 1st
That's it. That's all. Defencemen have only received 4 of the possible 85 spots in that span. Lidstrom, MacInnis, Leetch and Niedermayer have never finshed top 5 in Hart voting, but Turgeon, Yashin, Nolan and Bertuzzi all have.
That means either a) there's no good defencemen anymore or b) the writers are ignoring them. I believe it's theory b)