Shea Weber

[Enoch]

The Weber deal hurt us more in reputation and short term monetarily than the long-term cap figure. He is actually going to end up being underpaid by cap value, but he is getting crazy $$$ right now. Screw you Philly.

 

[triggrman]

And not to mention the damage it does to Poile's rep, taking his star player and team captain to arbitration looked really really bad, and it pissed Weber off. In fact Weber said as much

I'm sure that's had to help some of these players add Nashville to their no trade list.

 

[glenngineer]

And not to mention the damage it does to Poile's rep, taking his star player and team captain to arbitration looked really really bad, and it pissed Weber off. In fact Weber said as much

I'm sure that's had to help some of these players add Nashville to their no trade list.

And while that may be true, Weber also stated it's a business and while his feelings may have been hurt then, I'm sure he's over it now, especially every July 1 I'm sure he gets over it a little bit more.

Also, if that were the case, Jokinen wouldn't have signed here. Rinne had nothing but good things to say.

While Poile hasn't been perfect, he is still one of the most respected GM's in the league and guys don't want to play here right now because we haven't had playoff success. As soon as we start making noise in the playoffs, things will change. Detroit used to be the place to go and now they have a hard time acquiring guys via free agency. Their top guys are on their downswing and they're young guys aren't the same as what used to come through the system. While they're not chopped liver, there is no Datsyuk or Zetterberg to follow the Yzerman generation. They will struggle now that they can't get the top free agents anymore. If and when they start doing damage in the playoffs again, they will get the marquee guys again. Why do you think guys are going to teams like Dallas, Minny and Anaheim? They see the upside.

We'll be fine if Lavi does his job with the young guys and they actually produce. We have a great goalie, a very solid and young d-corp and our forward prospects could be very good if developed properly. I think we have a solid future IF things play out properly. Only time will tell.

 

[PredsV82]

And while that may be true, Weber also stated it's a business and while his feelings may have been hurt then, I'm sure he's over it now, especially every July 1 I'm sure he gets over it a little bit more.

Also, if that were the case, Jokinen wouldn't have signed here. Rinne had nothing but good things to say.

While Poile hasn't been perfect, he is still one of the most respected GM's in the league and guys don't want to play here right now because we haven't had playoff success. As soon as we start making noise in the playoffs, things will change. Detroit used to be the place to go and now they have a hard time acquiring guys via free agency. Their top guys are on their downswing and they're young guys aren't the same as what used to come through the system. While they're not chopped liver, there is no Datsyuk or Zetterberg to follow the Yzerman generation. They will struggle now that they can't get the top free agents anymore. If and when they start doing damage in the playoffs again, they will get the marquee guys again. Why do you think guys are going to teams like Dallas, Minny and Anaheim? They see the upside.

We'll be fine if Lavi does his job with the young guys and they actually produce. We have a great goalie, a very solid and young d-corp and our forward prospects could be very good if developed properly. I think we have a solid future IF things play out properly. Only time will tell.

you have really gotta stop posting sensible **** that I agree with completely... its making my brain hurt..

 

[triggrman]

Weber being over it doesn't make Poile look any more appealing to high end free agents. He still took his captain and star player to arbitration and tried to lowball him. When has that ever happened on another team?

Nothing against Jokinen but he's not a high end free agent.

Also, what makes Poile so respected in the league and how is that measured? He was so respected that Philly didn't hesitate to sign one of Poile's star players to an offer sheet.

On the surface he looks like he's made some great moves lately like unloading his mistake of Hendricks contract, trading Erat for Forsberg and Legwand for Jarnkrok and a 2nd round pick.

However, Jarnkrok hasn't proven he's Legwand's replacement yet and Forsberg has yet to become a fulltime player so it's really too early to chalk those up as wins, regardless of their perceived talent. Maybe those GMs gave the players up because they didn't seem as talented as Poile and the media thought they were. We don't know yet, but will soon.

I like the Lavi hire. It seems so un-Poile like.

I like the Neal trade. It seems so un-Poile like.

 

[Jarnberg]

Im pretty sure the Weber arbitration happened because the owners were not on solid financial footing that summer.

What is this based on?

 

[PredsV82]

What is this based on?

just deductive reasoning... why else would Poile have done that? If Poile had the green light to sign Weber to any contract he wanted(which was the case the following summer,when the owners were prepared to sign Weber, Suter and Parise if they would have accepted) then why wouldnt Poile just let him go find his best offer and match it, just like he did with Philly?

 

[Jarnberg]

just deductive reasoning... why else would Poile have done that? If Poile had the green light to sign Weber to any contract he wanted(which was the case the following summer,when the owners were prepared to sign Weber, Suter and Parise if they would have accepted) then why wouldnt Poile just let him go find his best offer and match it, just like he did with Philly?

At the time it was rumored we wanted a longer term deal and Weber wanted a shorter term deal to see how the team would do. It was said at the time we had money to sign Weber

I don't see how this can be blamed on the owners when they matched the offer sheet the next summer

Seems like a common theme on here to blame the owners for Poile's "mishaps"

 

[gopreds19]

just deductive reasoning... why else would Poile have done that? If Poile had the green light to sign Weber to any contract he wanted(which was the case the following summer,when the owners were prepared to sign Weber, Suter and Parise if they would have accepted) then why wouldnt Poile just let him go find his best offer and match it, just like he did with Philly?

I don't know if that holds water. From being financially unsure one summer to signing Weber to, like, the largest contract in the NHL the next. Not sure that makes sense.

Sadly, I think the arbitration was the result of Weber wanting out. I don't doubt that Poile probably offered him a fair market value, long term contract in both the summers of 2011 and 2012. Weber not signing probably meant a more ominous situation that what we wanted to admit, because after all, they sold it well that things were on good terms.

I criticize Poile's "lowball" offer at the hearing more tongue-in-cheek than anything else. It's business, I get that. Nonetheless, I don't think it made our GM or the organization look particularly good to the rest of the NHL players and the media. Did that contribute to the wave of star players not wanting to play here (Kesler, Spezza, maybe more?), seems to be that way.

The whole process with Weber, and for that matter, Suter, made Poile look as ham-fisted as he did with Scott Stevens. Whether Weber was truly offended or not, we'll never know. But if not signing and going to arbitration wasn't signal enough that Weber would have preferred to go to another city, signing that offer sheet certainly was.


Sorry, back to MDZ. Still not signed by anyone.

 

[triggrman]

I don't know if that holds water. From being financially unsure one summer to signing Weber to, like, the largest contract in the NHL the next. Not sure that makes sense.

Sadly, I think the arbitration was the result of Weber wanting out. I don't doubt that Poile probably offered him a fair market value, long term contract in both the summers of 2011 and 2012. Weber not signing probably meant a more ominous situation that what we wanted to admit, because after all, they sold it well that things were on good terms.

I criticize Poile's "lowball" offer at the hearing more tongue-in-cheek than anything else. It's business, I get that. Nonetheless, I don't think it made our GM or the organization look particularly good to the rest of the NHL players and the media. Did that contribute to the wave of star players not wanting to play here (Kesler, Spezza, maybe more?), seems to be that way.

The whole process with Weber, and for that matter, Suter, made Poile look as ham-fisted as he did with Scott Stevens. Whether Weber was truly offended or not, we'll never know. But if not signing and going to arbitration wasn't signal enough that Weber would have preferred to go to another city, signing that offer sheet certainly was.


Sorry, back to MDZ. Still not signed by anyone.

Weber didn't choose arbitration, the team did. So by your line of reasoning should Weber have concluded that Poile wanted to get rid of him? If not, why wouldn't it work both ways.

Also, did the following players also want out when they signed an offer sheet?

Ryan O'Reilly
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Steve Bernier
David Backes
Dustin Penner
Thomas Vanek
Ryan Kesler
Sergei Fedorov
Mattias Ohlund
Joe Sakic

Because all these players signed offer sheets with other teams.

 

[gopreds19]

Where did I say "Weber chose arbitration". You're right, the ORG did that. But he pretty much forced their hand by not signing, what I think we all can agree, was a fair market contract. So it's not as simple, as, "the ORG took him to arbitration".

And it's much more complex than the offer sheet. It's the totality of the situation. Did any of the other players on that last string along the organization for 2 consecutive years? Did any of the other players on your list sign a deal that was structured in such a way that it would be as hard as possible for the original team to sign?

But if you want an answer, it's clear that all those players were fully prepared to go elsewhere when they signed their offer sheets.

 

[triggrman]

Poile choose arbitration because he saw it as a way to control cost for one more year and it pissed Weber off. If you don't believe me, go read Weber's comments on it or listen to his tone in interviews.

That wasn't forced by Weber, that's the last thing Weber wanted. Weber wanted a long term max deal, which he eventually got with terms that were way tougher on the Predators than they could have been had he been offered it the year before. Poile was offering Weber another bridge type contract, Weber thought he deserved more and did. It was just another one of Poile cost controlling efforts that he's done throughout his career.

Now, you can try to shoot holes in this all you want but first please tell me what other team has taken their franchise player and captain to club elected arbitration in the past?

Ryan O'Reilly is the only other star type player I remember having club elect arbitration.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I figure the Weber talk can continue here. Please keep it civilized.

Last page of posts have been moved here ^^

 

[Predsrule]

Weber didn't choose arbitration, the team did. So by your line of reasoning should Weber have concluded that Poile wanted to get rid of him? If not, why wouldn't it work both ways.

Also, did the following players also want out when they signed an offer sheet?

Ryan O'Reilly
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Steve Bernier
David Backes
Dustin Penner
Thomas Vanek
Ryan Kesler
Sergei Fedorov
Mattias Ohlund
Joe Sakic

Because all these players signed offer sheets with other teams.

If I remember correctly weber would of picked to have the deal a year long as well bringing him to a ufa. But he picked the shorter one to stay a rfa if he wanted to leave he would not of done that.

 

[RaiderDoug]

On the surface he looks like he's made some great moves lately like unloading his mistake of Hendricks contract, trading Erat for Forsberg and Legwand for Jarnkrok and a 2nd round pick.

However, Jarnkrok hasn't proven he's Legwand's replacement yet and Forsberg has yet to become a fulltime player so it's really too early to chalk those up as wins, regardless of their perceived talent. Maybe those GMs gave the players up because they didn't seem as talented as Poile and the media thought they were. We don't know yet, but will soon.

I would consider both those trades wins right now.

Erat's almost literally done nothing since he left - people on this board throw a hissy fit whenever VLC is mentioned and he's got the same cap hit and scores 20 goals a season. Imagine what we'd be saying about Poile if we still had Erat on the roster. That's addition by subtraction.

Considering that we weren't resigning Legwand anyway - all we gave up for Jarnkrok is about 20 games of Legwand. So even if Jarnkrok flames out miserably, getting a prospect of his caliber for a 20 game rental - that's a win no matter how you cut it - and even better considering that in the short time since the trade, Legwand scored at a .52 PPG and Jarnkrok at a .58 clip.

Poile's not perfect, but even if Forsberg and Jarnkrok completely flame out over the next year or two (unlikely), it's still a good trade.

 

[triggrman]

I would consider both those trades wins right now.

Erat's almost literally done nothing since he left - people on this board throw a hissy fit whenever VLC is mentioned and he's got the same cap hit and scores 20 goals a season. Imagine what we'd be saying about Poile if we still had Erat on the roster. That's addition by subtraction.

Considering that we weren't resigning Legwand anyway - all we gave up for Jarnkrok is about 20 games of Legwand. So even if Jarnkrok flames out miserably, getting a prospect of his caliber for a 20 game rental - that's a win no matter how you cut it - and even better considering that in the short time since the trade, Legwand scored at a .52 PPG and Jarnkrok at a .58 clip.

Poile's not perfect, but even if Forsberg and Jarnkrok completely flame out over the next year or two (unlikely), it's still a good trade.

And I understand the motive. It was to save money and they were both smart business moves, right now though, they were just basic money decisions.

Edit: now that I think about it, Legwands ice results were matched by Jarnkrok so that's a win in budget and the ice.

However, as few of points as Erat may have since he left, Forsberg probably has less so on the ice that's not a win yet.

Again, I'm mostly disappointed as we were told we were no longer a budget team but all we've done is subtract salaries and haven't added much of anything.

I'm tired of my teams forwards being the worst in the NHL and Poile not doing anything about it.

 

[PredsV82]

Weber was not seeking a short term deal in the summer of 2011. He knew that the next CBA was probably going to have limits on contract terms. He knew he was an RFA until after the new CBA, so he needed to get his "max" deal done before the new CBA. He wanted a maximum deal and he felt the only way he could assure that he was getting the max was to go the offer sheet route (essentially thats the only way to see what the true "market" value for him was, because going offer sheet allowed him to negotiate as if he was a UFA)

Poile took him to arbitration to avoid that, even though he risked the possibility that Weber could choose a two year deal and we would be screwed. the only reason to take that risk is if you dont have the money to cover a big offer sheet.

Between the summer of 2011 and the summer of 2012, we added Brett Wilsons deep pockets, and I believe one of the owners sold their business and made a huge profit. So by summer of 2012, we not only had the money to cover a Weber offer sheet, we had the money to try to keep Suter and sign Parise. Weber still wanted to see what his full value was on the market, which is why he went the offer sheet route rather than just signing Poiles blank check, which was apparently offered.

so in summary, it WAS the owners who drove the decision to take Weber to arbitration in 2011. There is no other logical explanation.

 

[Cashville]

Im pretty sure the Weber arbitration happened because the owners were not on solid financial footing that summer. If they had been in a position to match any offer that summer, Poile would have been able to let Weber seek his best offer and then just match it. And its a darn shame that it worked out that way because you have to figure the number woukd have been high but not absurd like the deal he ended up getting

Am I missing something? Why did you bump a ~3 year old thread?

 

[PredsV82]

Am I missing something? Why did you bump a ~3 year old thread?

you missed the ten posts prior to mine. the Weber subject came up in the MDZ thread and several of us were debating it. AW moved the discussion to this thread rather than having us continue in a thread that was about Del Zotto

 

[Cashville]

Ahah; can't trust those ex-Whaler fans!

 

[triggrman]

Weber was not seeking a short term deal in the summer of 2011. He knew that the next CBA was probably going to have limits on contract terms. He knew he was an RFA until after the new CBA, so he needed to get his "max" deal done before the new CBA. He wanted a maximum deal and he felt the only way he could assure that he was getting the max was to go the offer sheet route (essentially thats the only way to see what the true "market" value for him was, because going offer sheet allowed him to negotiate as if he was a UFA)

Poile took him to arbitration to avoid that, even though he risked the possibility that Weber could choose a two year deal and we would be screwed. the only reason to take that risk is if you dont have the money to cover a big offer sheet.

Between the summer of 2011 and the summer of 2012, we added Brett Wilsons deep pockets, and I believe one of the owners sold their business and made a huge profit. So by summer of 2012, we not only had the money to cover a Weber offer sheet, we had the money to try to keep Suter and sign Parise. Weber still wanted to see what his full value was on the market, which is why he went the offer sheet route rather than just signing Poiles blank check, which was apparently offered.

so in summary, it WAS the owners who drove the decision to take Weber to arbitration in 2011. There is no other logical explanation.

I don't believe the owners forced Poile into arbitration, I believe Poile pushed that, rolled the dice and lost, badly.

 

[Montross]

Weber was not seeking a short term deal in the summer of 2011. He knew that the next CBA was probably going to have limits on contract terms. He knew he was an RFA until after the new CBA, so he needed to get his "max" deal done before the new CBA. He wanted a maximum deal and he felt the only way he could assure that he was getting the max was to go the offer sheet route (essentially thats the only way to see what the true "market" value for him was, because going offer sheet allowed him to negotiate as if he was a UFA)

Poile took him to arbitration to avoid that, even though he risked the possibility that Weber could choose a two year deal and we would be screwed. the only reason to take that risk is if you dont have the money to cover a big offer sheet.

Between the summer of 2011 and the summer of 2012, we added Brett Wilsons deep pockets, and I believe one of the owners sold their business and made a huge profit. So by summer of 2012, we not only had the money to cover a Weber offer sheet, we had the money to try to keep Suter and sign Parise. Weber still wanted to see what his full value was on the market, which is why he went the offer sheet route rather than just signing Poiles blank check, which was apparently offered.

so in summary, it WAS the owners who drove the decision to take Weber to arbitration in 2011. There is no other logical explanation.

Yet the owners, flush with all of this money, still do not spend to the cap. I'm not buying this.

 

[PredsV82]

I don't believe the owners forced Poile into arbitration, I believe Poile pushed that, rolled the dice and lost, badly.

Yet the owners, flush with all of this money, still do not spend to the cap. I'm not buying this.

youre both just seeing this through the lens of your own anti-Poile bias. There in no way that if the owners had the money to cover a huge contract in the summer of 2011 that Poile doesnt either offer Weber the moon or allow him to seek an offer sheet and just match it. If there was plenty of money why on earth would Poile make that gamble? After all, it isnt HIS money he's spending...

as far as not spending to the cap, you have to have someone willing to take the money. Poile tried to spend to the cap, and had Suter and Parise signed on as planned we would be in cap trouble right now. But you cant possibly spend to the cap if the only people who will sign are guys like Cullen and Stalberg, unless you want to give them stupid money for no reason.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Ahah; can't trust those ex-Whaler fans!

Heeeeeeeeyyyyyyy

 

[triggrman]

youre both just seeing this through the lens of your own anti-Poile bias. There in no way that if the owners had the money to cover a huge contract in the summer of 2011 that Poile doesnt either offer Weber the moon or allow him to seek an offer sheet and just match it. If there was plenty of money why on earth would Poile make that gamble? After all, it isnt HIS money he's spending...

as far as not spending to the cap, you have to have someone willing to take the money. Poile tried to spend to the cap, and had Suter and Parise signed on as planned we would be in cap trouble right now. But you cant possibly spend to the cap if the only people who will sign are guys like Cullen and Stalberg, unless you want to give them stupid money for no reason.

And you're blinded by your Poile fanboy glasses.

I'm trying to find the quote from Poile now but one of his original excuses for filing for arbitration was to keep offer sheets from coming in. Give me a bit though.