GDT: Sharks vs Lightning - The Tankathon Continues - 7:30

TheBeard

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It's not up to Grier. There are few impact free agents available to begin with and it's very unlikely any of them will sign with the Sharks. Trading futures for an established star doesn't make sense. Most likely the players Grier brings in this offseason will be marginal upgrades over the likes of Duclair, Barabanov, Hoffman, Labanc, etc. who need to be replaced.

More significantly, we will be get 0 games out of Hertl next season instead of 48. As you mentioned our goaltending has actually been pretty good this season so odds are it will be worse next year. I think we should expect the Sharks to be worse next season, not better.
It’s essentially up to Hasso, but reality is we’re not playing guys like Hoffman and Labanc and will be playing guys like Gushlin and Musty (unless they’re complete busts). That’s already an upgrade. Benning should be back and Shakir will be getting top 6 minutes as well. Lastly on goaltending, Vanacek is still better than anything we have including Blackwood.

Regardless, either Macklin is playing for us next year or we had a historically bad season which didn’t even result in first overall, and if that happens Plattner won’t give Grier another opportunity to try in such an extreme manner.
 

Hodge

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It’s essentially up to Hasso, but reality is we’re not playing guys like Hoffman and Labanc and will be playing guys like Gushlin and Musty (unless they’re complete busts). That’s already an upgrade. Benning should be back and Shakir will be getting top 6 minutes as well. Lastly on goaltending, Vanacek is still better than anything we have including Blackwood.

Regardless, either Macklin is playing for us next year or we had a historically bad season which didn’t even result in first overall, and if that happens Plattner won’t give Grier another opportunity to try in such an extreme manner.
The difference between Hoffman/Labanc and Musty/Gushchin in 24-25 will be marginal if it exists at all. Same with Vanecek vs. Kahkonen. These are completely insignificant "upgrades."
 

TheBeard

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The difference between Hoffman/Labanc and Musty/Gushchin in 24-25 will be marginal if it exists at all. Same with Vanecek vs. Kahkonen. These are completely insignificant "upgrades."
I think the absolute worst case scenario with Gush and Musty is if the difference is only marginal. It can only be better at least from an effort standpoint, but it shouldn't be hard to replace their combined 12 goals.

Also Vanacek is an upgrade over KK although the cost isn't ideal. I think that combined with a better defense (Benning + Shakir - Nikita and maybe Addison) will help significantly.

If Logan is healthy and able to play this team is already a significantly better squad than what we had this year.
 
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coooldude

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We may be better than we are this year but still end bottom 3. Honestly that's the ideal outcome. It won't be quite so painful to watch, we can get hyped about our young kids (even though, like Eklund, they will have a lot of downs), but we still get a high pick.
 
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Hodge

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I think the absolute worst case scenario with Gush and Musty is if the difference is only marginal. It can only be better at least from an effort standpoint, but it shouldn't be hard to replace their combined 12 goals.

Also Vanacek is an upgrade over KK although the cost isn't ideal. I think that combined with a better defense (Benning + Shakir - Nikita and maybe Addison) will help significantly.

If Logan is healthy and able to play this team is already a significantly better squad than what we had this year.
The worst case, and most likely, scenario with Gush and Musty is that they prove they aren't good enough to play in the NHL next season.

Vanecek, Kahkonen and Blackwood are basically all the same guy. 1B goalies who could put up anything from .890 to .910 SV% and no one would bat an eye.

Couture doesn't sound like he's going to be able to play again but even if he does, why would a 35 year old Couture give us more than we got from Hertl this season?
 
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TheBeard

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The worst case, and most likely, scenario with Gush and Musty is that they prove they aren't good enough to play in the NHL next season.

Vanecek, Kahkonen and Blackwood are basically all the same guy. 1B goalies who could put up anything from .890 to .910 SV% and no one would bat an eye.

Couture doesn't sound like he's going to be able to play again but even if he does, why would a 35 year old Couture give us more than we got from Hertl this season?
Your worst case scenario is exactly my point - that the difference is only marginal. Even if they're not ready to play, finding someone, anyone to compensate for the pathetic play of Hoff and Banc won't be hard to do if Grier actually wants to.

Up until this year Vita has been a 2.7 GAA/.910 save guy and the Devils D has never been better than average. I like him more than both Mac and KK even if he's not the answer.

Couture, when healthy, is a better all-around player than Hertl who's never healthy. That's my opinion. If he doesn't play? Then the team absolutely needs to spend in the offseason just to reach the floor. I wouldn't be surprised to see them make a lot of short term pitches to guys like Turbo, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Henrique, Debrusk etc.

Frankly, the only reason this team wouldn't get better is because Grier isn't interested in getting better. If they don't get first overall this season, trying to replicate with different results may be a tough sell to both the fans and the owner.
 
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Hodge

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Your worst case scenario is exactly my point - that the difference is only marginal. Even if they're not ready to play, finding someone, anyone to compensate for the pathetic play of Hoff and Banc won't be hard to do if Grier actually wants to.

Up until this year Vita has been a 2.7 GAA/.910 save guy and the Devils D has never been better than average. I like him more than both Mac and KK even if he's not the answer.

Couture, when healthy, is a better all-around player than Hertl who's never healthy. That's my opinion. If he doesn't play? Then the team absolutely needs to spend in the offseason just to reach the floor. I wouldn't be surprised to see them make a lot of short term pitches to guys like Turbo, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Henrique, Debrusk etc.

Frankly, the only reason this team wouldn't get better is because Grier isn't interested in getting better. If they don't get first overall this season, trying to replicate with different results may be a tough sell to both the fans and the owner.
But you were selling the "upgrade" from Hoffman/Labanc to Gushchin/Musty as one of the reasons we'll be a better team next season. If it's more likely to be a marginal difference then those replacements won't do much to improve the team.

It's perfectly reasonable to like Vanecek more than Blackwood and KK but the point is there isn't much reason to consider these goalies vastly different from each other. Again, not a reason to bank on significant improvement.

Couture is 35 and if he plays again it will be after essentially an 18 month hiatus. In the extremely unlikely event he plays more than 5-10 games for us next season, Couture will definitely not be better than Hertl.

We just traded Hertl, Karlsson, Meier and Burns away without replacing them. You can't replace those players in UFA and it wouldn't make sense to even if possible. We are going to be as bad as we were this season for at least a few more years.
 

TheBeard

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But you were selling the "upgrade" from Hoffman/Labanc to Gushchin/Musty as one of the reasons we'll be a better team next season. If it's more likely to be a marginal difference then those replacements won't do much to improve the team.

It's perfectly reasonable to like Vanecek more than Blackwood and KK but the point is there isn't much reason to consider these goalies vastly different from each other. Again, not a reason to bank on significant improvement.

Couture is 35 and if he plays again it will be after essentially an 18 month hiatus. In the extremely unlikely event he plays more than 5-10 games for us next season, Couture will definitely not be better than Hertl.

We just traded Hertl, Karlsson, Meier and Burns away without replacing them. You can't replace those players in UFA and it wouldn't make sense to even if possible. We are going to be as bad as we were this season for at least a few more years.
The upgrade aspect is we can't get any worse than what Labanc and Hoffman and even Kunin (whom I like) brought offensively. That's almost 10 million dollars of dead weight. The fact that the absolute worst case scenario is we get the production we already got but for about 9 million dollars cheaper means allocating funds elsewhere (if they choose to go that route).Using Gush and Musty over those three means if the team wanted they could spend 6-8 on someone to compensate financially if they wanted to. We'd still have to overpay for whomever that is, but it's still a massive upgrade from what we got.

The goaltending was not our issue this year so I'm not concerned about that aspect being a weakness.

Couture, man, who knows what happens with him, but I imagine there would be a little more clarity going into next season regarding his long term health than the last minute, constant set back conundrums we dealt with this year. It was hard for Grier to know how to compensate when every day seemed to be a different development with Logan.

No one is saying to replace the elite talents we let go in FA, but there is undoubtedly a bushel of decent enough players available that would be better than having to play Jason MacDonald on the power play. Like I've said many times, if the team doesn't get better next year, it's because Grier didn't want them to, not because he couldn't. And, as I've said before, if we had the season we did and finish dead last and still don't win the lottery, it'll be a hard sell to everyone in the organization to go the same route. What are they gonna try and do, finish even more in last?
 

karltonian

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Couture, when healthy, is a better all-around player than Hertl who's never healthy.
I'm generally with where you are going but can't cosign this at all. Hertl is absolutely a better player all-around, he is physically dominant and can credibly play 1C, something Couture never could. Couture may have been defensively better at his peak but it has been many years, Hertl's faceoff ability is a huge point in his favor, and I don't know where the Hertl never healthy thing comes from. Aside from the knee injury related layoffs he's been a tank.

Re-signing Kane is when it all fell apart.
bleh. only because we didn't get full value out of him.
 

Juxtaposer

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bleh. only because we didn't get full value out of him.
No, because 1) it prevented us from signing Pavelski, 2) signing a player who has been bounced from two NHL teams for character reasons to a 7 year contract is insanely stupid, and 3) because if we hadn’t re-signed Kane, we’d have Tim Stutzle.

Trading for Kane as a rental was fine. Re-signing him destroyed this team.
 

TheBeard

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I'm generally with where you are going but can't cosign this at all. Hertl is absolutely a better player all-around, he is physically dominant and can credibly play 1C, something Couture never could. Couture may have been defensively better at his peak but it has been many years, Hertl's faceoff ability is a huge point in his favor, and I don't know where the Hertl never healthy thing comes from. Aside from the knee injury related layoffs he's been a tank.
Hertl was generally invisible this year save for that one miracle stretch where he was the best player in the game for a week. Outside of that he was either checked out or in serious decline. I have no doubts once he suits up for Vegas he'll be his old self again, but from what we've seen he just didn't seem to care all that much (not that I blame him).
 

karltonian

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No, because 1) it prevented us from signing Pavelski, 2) signing a player who has been bounced from two NHL teams for character reasons to a 7 year contract is insanely stupid, and 3) because if we hadn’t re-signed Kane, we’d have Tim Stutzle.

Trading for Kane as a rental was fine. Re-signing him destroyed this team.
Hindsight being 20/20, replacing pavelski with a younger, faster, more physical 1st liner was never a bad decision. There's no guarantee we finish where we did in another circumstance, and Kane was a 1st line player regardless. The fact we lost a 1st line player for nothing is the issue.
 
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karltonian

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It wasn't a fluke. We had no depth. We're they playing Marleau on PP1? The goaltending was atrocious as well.
we had more depth than many teams that finished above us. Yes the atrocious goaltending had a lot to do with it as well, Jones went sub .900, so we finished way below where we could or should have.
 

TheBeard

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we had more depth than many teams that finished above us. Yes the atrocious goaltending had a lot to do with it as well, Jones went sub .900, so we finished way below where we could or should have.
You're a bad team when you're playing Gambrell, Melker and Sorensen at the same time. We esstentially lost Pavs, Nyquist and Donskoi and replaced them with the likes of Kellman and Noesen
 

karltonian

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You're a bad team when you're playing Gambrell, Melker and Sorensen at the same time. We esstentially lost Pavs, Nyquist and Donskoi and replaced them with the likes of Kellman and Noesen
A bottom 3 team looks like the Sharks last year, or even this year, not the 19-20 Sharks. We still had Brendan Dillon for god's sake.
 

Jargon

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I suspect Grier takes active steps in improving the team next year. I think the aggressiveness of the plan depends on whether get Celebrini or not, but I think Hasso and the fans will want some upward trajectory — even if it’s still a bottom 3-5 finish, he’s likely going to do everything he can to put together a team that isn’t this miserable. I expect a few high energy, high battle beastly guys brought in, mixed in with some of our prospects like possibly Smith, Musty, Guschin and Muhk.
 

DarrylshutzSydor

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#10, #90, #9 and Blackwood all looked good in this game. The Shark Tank has gone way down hill. The music sucks, the services suck, and there is no coffee? Only good thing is that you can sit wherever you want.
 

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