OT: Sens Lounge XCV: Music Mourning Edition

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Jan 19, 2006
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Hey guys, another writing/reading question for everyone.

Now I realize that your opinion will often depend on the piece of writing itself and how it flows but I'm just asking about your general opinion on the writing technique itself moreso than the execution.

There's been this ongoing discussion on a small internet community I frequent about stories that include multiple (a lot of separate distinct) PoVs, and how scenes where the characters actually interact, at the same time, in the same place, can be confusing if the author is jumping between the various characters' perspectives. Something about how it takes the reader awhile to get into the headspace of one character but before they can do so, the author has already jumped into the perspective of a different character. Adding to that, a lot of the time exposition has to be repeated just so the reader doesn't get lost.

Assuming that the multiple PoVs is required for the story, ie. the reader doesn't get lost because each character has their own schemes and machinations they are working on, or they are all noticing something different that is important to the plot later on etc. There are some people that suggested maybe using the groundhog day style PoV structure. Where you go over the entire scene from one perspective, and then jump back in time and go over the same scene again from a different character's perspective and repeat until the whole cast is covered. Of course, that has its own issues, especially the covering the whole scene multiple times issue (though that can be mitigated if you don't actually go through every perspective back to back, but write something else in between).

What do you guys think? How would you structure the scene if you were the one writing? Which do you prefer reading?
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,412
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Hey guys, another writing/reading question for everyone.

Now I realize that your opinion will often depend on the piece of writing itself and how it flows but I'm just asking about your general opinion on the writing technique itself moreso than the execution.

There's been this ongoing discussion on a small internet community I frequent about stories that include multiple (a lot of separate distinct) PoVs, and how scenes where the characters actually interact, at the same time, in the same place, can be confusing if the author is jumping between the various characters' perspectives. Something about how it takes the reader awhile to get into the headspace of one character but before they can do so, the author has already jumped into the perspective of a different character. Adding to that, a lot of the time exposition has to be repeated just so the reader doesn't get lost.

Assuming that the multiple PoVs is required for the story, ie. the reader doesn't get lost because each character has their own schemes and machinations they are working on, or they are all noticing something different that is important to the plot later on etc. There are some people that suggested maybe using the groundhog day style PoV structure. Where you go over the entire scene from one perspective, and then jump back in time and go over the same scene again from a different character's perspective and repeat until the whole cast is covered. Of course, that has its own issues, especially the covering the whole scene multiple times issue (though that can be mitigated if you don't actually go through every perspective back to back, but write something else in between).

What do you guys think? How would you structure the scene if you were the one writing? Which do you prefer reading?


Jeffrey Archer, a pretty good story teller , has a 3 book series about a main character Harry Clifton. He tells the story where a chapter is dedicated to a significant character and a time frame. He manages to bring in all together. It works well for him. I like it.
The books are;
Only time will tell
Sins of the Father
Best kept Secret
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
15,459
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Hey guys, another writing/reading question for everyone.

Now I realize that your opinion will often depend on the piece of writing itself and how it flows but I'm just asking about your general opinion on the writing technique itself moreso than the execution.

There's been this ongoing discussion on a small internet community I frequent about stories that include multiple (a lot of separate distinct) PoVs, and how scenes where the characters actually interact, at the same time, in the same place, can be confusing if the author is jumping between the various characters' perspectives. Something about how it takes the reader awhile to get into the headspace of one character but before they can do so, the author has already jumped into the perspective of a different character. Adding to that, a lot of the time exposition has to be repeated just so the reader doesn't get lost.

Assuming that the multiple PoVs is required for the story, ie. the reader doesn't get lost because each character has their own schemes and machinations they are working on, or they are all noticing something different that is important to the plot later on etc. There are some people that suggested maybe using the groundhog day style PoV structure. Where you go over the entire scene from one perspective, and then jump back in time and go over the same scene again from a different character's perspective and repeat until the whole cast is covered. Of course, that has its own issues, especially the covering the whole scene multiple times issue (though that can be mitigated if you don't actually go through every perspective back to back, but write something else in between).

What do you guys think? How would you structure the scene if you were the one writing? Which do you prefer reading?

Don't change PoV within a chapter.
Any story will always have a primary "storyteller", tell the event from that perspective. Then fill in necessary gaps from the other perspective in a later chapter. And really only touch on the events that actually influence the advancement of the story.

Because any time you're jumping PoV, you're going to have some time frame overlap.
 
Jan 19, 2006
22,966
4,667
Calgary
Don't change PoV within a chapter.
Any story will always have a primary "storyteller", tell the event from that perspective. Then fill in necessary gaps from the other perspective in a later chapter. And really only touch on the events that actually influence the advancement of the story.

Because any time you're jumping PoV, you're going to have some time frame overlap.

I mean, it's a good rule, but just like "show don't tell" and all these other writing rules, writers break it all the time for the sake of the story.

As for the primary storyteller, I think it depends on the story you're telling. It's not like ASoIaF (Game of Thrones for you TV nerds) did that, and it's a massively popular book series even if no one believes it'll be finished before the author dies.
 

Caeldan

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Jun 21, 2008
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Well even with ASoIaF, there's still usually some primary characters for the sake of storytelling.
It's been a while since I've read it, but when there's multiple PoV characters in the same location you typically only get one version of the events.
Unless there was a specific motivation from the event, in which case it's retold in the other character's perspective starting from the key point to show the motivation.

Unless there was a specific motivation from the event, in which case it's retold in the other character's perspective starting from the key point to show the motivation.
However, if you really want to enforce the happening at the same time thing, then use the "subchapter" (I have no idea what the technical term is), where you quickly break away to tell another perspective for the point you absolutely need to reveal from the other side at that position in time and then return to your original character's PoV.
Multiple PoV storytelling imo though is one of those things that's very hard to do properly and most of the time really isn't required.
 
Jan 19, 2006
22,966
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Calgary
Well even with ASoIaF, there's still usually some primary characters for the sake of storytelling.
It's been a while since I've read it, but when there's multiple PoV characters in the same location you typically only get one version of the events.
Unless there was a specific motivation from the event, in which case it's retold in the other character's perspective starting from the key point to show the motivation.

Multiple PoV storytelling imo though is one of those things that's very hard to do properly and most of the time really isn't required.

Yeah, it's been years since I read the books, and I gave up on the series around the 3rd book anyways because I forgot what happened waiting for the next book and didn't really feel like rereading the series to figure it out. Regardless, I'm positive I've read more than one book with perspective switches in a single chapter anyways.

Sure, it's difficult to do properly and often not needed, which is why I stay away from multiple PoVs in stuff I write, because I'm not a great writer, but we're talking about theoretical applications right now. :p:
 

Caeldan

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Jun 21, 2008
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Yeah. I'm just saying my preference as a reader is one pov per chapter unless it's absolutely necessary to give me another pov right this instance, and keep it brief then. It is a bit jarring to switch mid-narrative into another mind.

Otherwise use a flashback device to fill in the missing pov details in the other character's chapter, or pick up their chapter from that point in the story.
 

DrEasy

Out rumptackling
Oct 3, 2010
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Man, Good Vibrations isn't under-appreciated. I mean, maybe among kids who don't listen to older music? The author of that piece sounded young, so maybe it's just his friends who don't know about it? In music circles, it's widely considered to be one of THE most definitive, most influential songs in rock history. It's probably in a consensus of the top-5 most influential rock songs of all time (along with that entire album). How is that under-appreciated?

Also - Good Vibrations was just a small part of the masterpiece that is Pet Sounds. It's widely considered to be one of the most influential albums of all time for a very good reason. The difference between the sound on Pet Sounds and everything else they had done up to that point was shocking. I'd even go so far as to say that it was more influential than anything the Beatles ever did, if only because the Beatles themselves were inspired by Pet Sounds, and we would never have got albums like Sgt. Peppers or White Album or Abbey Road if we didn't have Pet Sounds first.

If we're posting Beach Boys songs, my favourite from that album is God Only Knows:


Good Vibrations isn't on Pet Sounds. I think it was recorded during the Pet Sounds sessions but it only came out as a single.

I agree with you on God Only Knows. One of the most beautiful songs ever - along with Good Vibrations, of course! Another great song on Pet Sounds is Caroline No.

A more obscure Beach Boys song that has the kind of bizarre (some might say "progressive") construction as Good Vibrations is Cabinessence, which was to be part of the ill-fated Smile album:

 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
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Good Vibrations isn't on Pet Sounds. I think it was recorded during the Pet Sounds sessions but it only came out as a single.

I agree with you on God Only Knows. One of the most beautiful songs ever - along with Good Vibrations, of course! Another great song on Pet Sounds is Caroline No.

A more obscure Beach Boys song that has the kind of bizarre (some might say "progressive") construction as Good Vibrations is Cabinessence, which was to be part of the ill-fated Smile album:



God Only Knows is a great song.

Speaking of most beautiful songs ever, I think this should be a candidate.





On a related note, does anyone else generally find sad songs more "beautiful"? Not to say that happy songs cn't be good, but sad songs just seem to strike me on such a deeper level.
 
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Mingus Dew

Microphone Assassin
Oct 7, 2013
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God Only Knows is a great song.

Speaking of most beautiful songs ever, I think this should be a candidate.





On a related note, does anyone else generally find sad songs more "beautiful"? Not to say that happy songs cn't be good, but sad songs just seem to strike me on such a deeper level.


You a Smiths fan?
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
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Here's a couple of reasons why he mentioned them in the context of beautiful sad songs:



Ok. Not really my kind of music to be honest. I can see why he would post them, I even find the second one very relatable. But the sound just doesn't appeal to me.
 

Caeldan

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Jun 21, 2008
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How soon is now was the theme song for Charmed.
It will forever be that to me :laugh:
 

DrEasy

Out rumptackling
Oct 3, 2010
11,018
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Ok. Not really my kind of music to be honest. I can see why he would post them, I even find the second one very relatable. But the sound just doesn't appeal to me.
No problem. I did choose the second song based on stuff you've posted here before!
 

Mingus Dew

Microphone Assassin
Oct 7, 2013
5,587
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Whenever I think of sad music I immediately think of the Smiths.

Also look up "This is the Day" by The The. Kind of a sad/happy song. Really moving in my opinion.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,912
31,129
On a related note, does anyone else generally find sad songs more "beautiful"? Not to say that happy songs cn't be good, but sad songs just seem to strike me on such a deeper level.

No one will play it 'Cause sad songs and waltzes Aren't selling this year
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,070
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Calgary
I have a friend that seems to be slipping into anti-feminist thought and I don't know how to convince him what he reads/believes is wrong. Does anyone have any advice?
 

Fandlauer

Registered User
Apr 23, 2013
6,715
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Ottawa unless it becomes a disaster
I have a friend that seems to be slipping into anti-feminist thought and I don't know how to convince him what he reads/believes is wrong. Does anyone have any advice?

I mean, it depends on on what you mean by anti-feminist thought. There are plenty of valid arguments against certain aspects of third wave feminism. Or are you talking about full-blown misogynistic pua type garbage.
 

saskriders

Can't Hold Leads
Sep 11, 2010
25,070
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Calgary
I mean, it depends on on what you mean by anti-feminist thought. There are plenty of valid arguments against certain aspects of third wave feminism. Or are you talking about full-blown misogynistic pua type garbage.

Trending towards the later, but not quite full blown. He seems to believe that men are more disadvantaged than women. He wants me to watch The Red Pill Documentary with him. Keep in mind he is a "sexless loser" like me so he has reason to be unhappy/angry. It just shouldn't be directed towards women in my opinion.
 

Fandlauer

Registered User
Apr 23, 2013
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Ottawa unless it becomes a disaster
Trending towards the later, but not quite full blown. He seems to believe that men are more disadvantaged than women. He wants me to watch The Red Pill Documentary with him. Keep in mind he is a "sexless loser" like me so he has reason to be unhappy/angry. It just shouldn't be directed towards women in my opinion.

You won't be able to change his mind either way, but I certainly wouldn't indulge him and watch terrible documentaries. I'd just state your opinion on the matter and tell him your not interested. As long as he doesn't act like a misogynist or a creep to the point it bothers you when you hang out I don't think it's the end of the world.

Generally I find people with little life experience with the opposite sex are those that fall in the wacko categories on either side. They tend to just want to blame others for their own issues. Be it a misogynist or a hardcore feminist. You'll just have to evaluate whether you want to continue being friends with him if he completely loses touch with reality.
 

BondraTime

Registered User
Nov 20, 2005
28,677
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East Coast
I have a friend that seems to be slipping into anti-feminist thought and I don't know how to convince him what he reads/believes is wrong. Does anyone have any advice?

I mean, show him your case, and be done with it.

You always seem so caught up in what others do/say.

If he's going down whatever road that is and you feel it's not for you, move on. Thinking of yourself as a "sexless loser" seems pretty silly to me, and just invites bad/negative feelings.

I'm not sure what anti-feminism is, or The Red Pill, but if you feel so strongly against it, just move on.

You seem to be down on yourself to much man. You've done a lot of things and been on a lot of adventures for a guy your age (I'm guessing 21-23 give or take). I'm 28 and would love to have had the adventures you've been on recently.
 
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