Post-Game Talk: Senators 3 Leafs 2

[Jojalu]

the problem isn't the loss , the problem is we have too many slow ineffective players , sure the ones who get to play on the top 2 lines will put up some points but we need more from our depth players than to just hang around the crease

giving 11m to JT is killing this team and shitting the blame to Marner isn't going to deflect away from this reality nor is pretending he's playing on some elite level going to change the fact he's way to slow to be a game changer

Muzzin losing another step that he couldn't afford to lose is going to bury our D core and Holl is a bottom pair D at best

the positive is that when Mathews gets back he and Willie/Mitch/Rielly should be enough to keep us in the playoff hunt as long as the goalies don't fall apart

Depth players havn't been the issue. They have scored half of thr Leafs goals so far.

Anytime Marner or JT wants to show up on the scoresheet would be fine. Especially 5v5 where they should be dominating.

I don't think the Leafs will be involved in a lot of track meets this year.

Designed to win 2-1 or 3-2 which they should be able to most nights.

Holl and Muzzin need to be better for this to happen...

 

[LaPlante94]

of course they're trying to shift to shift the blame to the core and away from the trash they surrounded them with , that's why they going on and on about how they believe in them

and also i believe this core can win a cup , what i have a hard time believing is this core can win a cup with the players Dubas surrounded them with

This core is surrounded with players who have near league minimum contracts because our core is paid over 50% of our cap and we need to fit like 17 others on the team. If the core players don't like it then they shouldn't have signed for so much but they did and they got to live with it and play with lesser talented players because of it. Dubas gave our core guys everything they wanted and they need to live up to those contracts and start to perform in the playoffs. I won't say I've agreed with every Dubas move because I haven't but he's gave our core good cheap players to play with and they just haven't lived up to those contracts in the playoffs.

 

[hotpaws]

Depth players havn't been the issue. They have scored half of thr Leafs goals so far.

Anytime Marner or JT wants to show up on the scoresheet would be fine. Especially 5v5 where they should be dominating.

I don't think the Leafs will be involved in a lot of track meets this year.

Designed to win 2-1 or 3-2 which they should be able to most nights.

Holl and Muzzin need to be better for this to happen...

i agree JT and Marner have to start to produce but how haven't the depth players been an issue ?

Amadio
Simmonds
Kerfoot
Ritchie

have all been complete trash the first two games to go along with our 2nd D pair , Bunting has been okay , Spezza has been fine but his line gets filled in due to his mates and Engvall/Kase have been up and down so it's not just our top line

 

[hotpaws]

This core is surrounded with players who have near league minimum contracts because our core is paid over 50% of our cap and we need to fit like 17 others on the team. If the core players don't like it then they shouldn't have signed for so much but they did and they got to live with it and play with lesser talented players because of it. Dubas gave our core guys everything they wanted and they need to live up to those contracts and start to perform in the playoffs. I won't say I've agreed with every Dubas move because I haven't but he's gave our core good cheap players to play with and they just haven't lived up to those contracts in the playoffs.

this isn't basketball where you can surround 3 stars with bargain bin players and think you'll win a title

Dubas f***ed this team the second he handed JT 11m ,

 

[Jojalu]

i agree JT and Marner have to start to produce but how haven't the depth players been an issue ?

Amadio
Simmonds
Kerfoot
Ritchie

have all been complete trash the first two games to go along with our 2nd D pair , Bunting has been okay , Spezza has been fine but his line gets filled in due to his mates and Engvall/Kase have been up and down so it's not just our top line

Depth players just need to score 1 goal per game in theory and you should be fine.

The facat that a 4th liner hasn't scored doesn't upset me. They usually are 1 point every 4 games. Kase and Bunting have been all over the place and will put up 40 points.

Ritchie has to produce more if he wants to play top line. Way more. Can't be just a presence in front of the net. Has to go retrieve pucks and generate some O.

I don't think we will score nearly the same amount of goals this year as the previous few, but do believe we will be top 10 again goals against and take another step towards grinding out wins

 

[nuck]

Nah, I disagree - I think there's always room for loyalty, and if the cap went up, you could have started to surround those big contracts with other nice pieces in the same way that Pittsburgh did initially around their big 4 contracts. Once the cap stayed flat, and you realized you didn't have a winner, the plan needed to be adjusted and they didn't do it - that will be their biggest downfall

I don't think Dubas and Shanny are trying to shift blame. Nothing that either of them have said, has suggested that they have any issue taking responsibility on their own shoulders. I'm not sure why you feel they would some skirt away from the blame? Dubas often takes much of it on his own.

Dubas apologizes but he doesn't really admit mistakes. There is no blame with them. Has he ever said that a trade or a signing was a bad idea? Management have indicated that by sheer tyranny of will this team will succeed because "they believe in them." They replaced Hyman with Ritchie and some bargain bin bits and the club is somehow on target for a deep playoff run. If you believe JT is a legit difference maker then that can be an excuse for the playoff loss to the eventual SC finalist, therefore the addition of Tavares in the post season is greater than the loss of Hyman. It sort of works if Marner and Matthews have the kind of playoff they are capable of but I don't have their confidence. So far Keefe seems like a worse playoff coach than Babcock was. What has he learned? Losing to the Sens so Mitch gets 24:20 in TOI including 2:28 on the f'ing PK? WTF its an 82 game season Sheldon, save the excessive ice time for games that have some meaning.

Now back to the thread Not a great outing but as many have mentioned, its only game two, they were bound to lose a game or two to the Sens no matter what, and they had 48 SOG without Matthews. I am losing zero sleep over this one, and I think some folks are keying too much on some individual players and not enough on the team game. If Mitch is getting 6 shots on the net that's a good thing because even soft shots end up in the net with deflections, screens, and rebounds and none of those can be provided by the shooter. My biggest complaint about Marner with Matthews is he is going to give up the shot to the big guy so often its predictable. 2.8 SOG a night last season needs to be improved on so I will take the 6 and wait for Marner's line mates to help convert some of those. We need to remember a two game scoring slump doesn't actually qualify as a slump. I am more worried about their goalies staying healthy than that Mitch and JT aren't filling the net in Matthew's absence.

 

[justloveleafs]

Dubas apologizes but he doesn't really admit mistakes. There is no blame with them. Has he ever said that a trade or a signing was a bad idea? Management have indicated that by sheer tyranny of will this team will succeed because "they believe in them." They replaced Hyman with Ritchie and some bargain bin bits and the club is somehow on target for a deep playoff run. If you believe JT is a legit difference maker then that can be an excuse for the playoff loss to the eventual SC finalist, therefore the addition of Tavares in the post season is greater than the loss of Hyman. It sort of works if Marner and Matthews have the kind of playoff they are capable of but I don't have their confidence. So far Keefe seems like a worse playoff coach than Babcock was. What has he learned? Losing to the Sens so Mitch gets 24:20 in TOI including 2:28 on the f'ing PK? WTF its an 82 game season Sheldon, save the excessive ice time for games that have some meaning.

Now back to the thread Not a great outing but as many have mentioned, its only game two, they were bound to lose a game or two to the Sens no matter what, and they had 48 SOG without Matthews. I am losing zero sleep over this one, and I think some folks are keying too much on some individual players and not enough on the team game. If Mitch is getting 6 shots on the net that's a good thing because even soft shots end up in the net with deflections, screens, and rebounds and none of those can be provided by the shooter. My biggest complaint about Marner with Matthews is he is going to give up the shot to the big guy so often its predictable. 2.8 SOG a night last season needs to be improved on so I will take the 6 and wait for Marner's line mates to help convert some of those. We need to remember a two game scoring slump doesn't actually qualify as a slump. I am more worried about their goalies staying healthy than that Mitch and JT aren't filling the net in Matthew's absence.

canot read this,way too thick, we are on small devices,until u make three sentence posts, i will never read anything from u.. just saying brother, have an eye, if not a heart.,

 

[killer1980]

People have a tough time believing that our team juat isn't very good. Our top 4 our nowhere near the best 4 on a team in the league. We have a very limited supporting cast. Give kids these days a lot of money and they party and are highly unmotivated. Seeing their attitude this summer, I was embarassed to be a Leaf fan. They don't care and the general manager seems to want to be pals rather than their boss. I predict they won't make the playoffs as the downward slide accelerates.

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

So many debbie downers in here. Maybe if you were a bit more optimistic you would enjoy the games more and good things would happen.

 

[Sinkkunaattori]

Just now got time to watch the game, and I only had the Sens broadcast available. It was hilarious how much effort the play-by-play guy was putting in to ignore all the Leafs jerseys in the stands and the Go Leafs Go chants while commenting about the home crowd this and home crowd that.

Meh, we had many good chances but flubbed the shots on most of them. Put Matthews in there and that's a W for sure. I'll refrain from doom-and-glooming yet since it was just game 2 of the season.

 

[francis246]

this isn't basketball where you can surround 3 stars with bargain bin players and think you'll win a title

Dubas f***ed this team the second he handed JT 11m ,

I don’t agree with this. Do you for one second actually believe this team would be better without him? I think Kadri still gets traded because they don’t want to deal with his antics and then what does the Center depth look like then? Maybe you keep Kapanen and Brown. But I don’t think the leafs were ruined by the Tavares signing.

the problem since Dubas has taken over is there is zero accountability for Matthews and Marner specifically. Let’s call a spade a spade, those two run the show in Toronto. Coaches and management are afraid to lay into them. The biggest mistake Dubas made was firing Mike Babcock in my opinion. Because I believe Babcock would have gotten through to the group eventually.

 

[hotpaws]

I don’t agree with this. Do you for one second actually believe this team would be better without him? I think Kadri still gets traded because they don’t want to deal with his antics and then what does the Center depth look like then? Maybe you keep Kapanen and Brown. But I don’t think the leafs were ruined by the Tavares signing.

the problem since Dubas has taken over is there is zero accountability for Matthews and Marner specifically. Let’s call a spade a spade, those two run the show in Toronto. Coaches and management are afraid to lay into them. The biggest mistake Dubas made was firing Mike Babcock in my opinion. Because I believe Babcock would have gotten through to the group eventually.

yes the team would be better off without him and having his 11m dollar cap hit broken into pieces to fill out the lineup

the great thing about being Johnny is nothing is ever his fault

-in jr it was the Gens couldn't build a team around him to have success
-traded to a stacked London team and still didn't go anywhere , not his fault though because the spits were stacked too and his teammates let him down
-9 yrs on the island and the story line was poor JT was stuck playing with pure shit , he leaves and it's 'Trotz is the only reason there performing so well"
-signs with Toronto and the team performs no better yet it everybody's else fault and it's poor Johnny who is being let down once again by his teammates

where's JT's accountability and why is he so special that all his teammates get thrown under the bus since he was 15 to deflect any criticism away from him ?

 

[SweLeafsFan]

I want to see Spezza center Nylander's line until Matthews is back. Forget about age, Spezza still has offensive skill most players on the leafs are nowhere near.

 

[DopeyFish]

WTF does any of that crap matter? The scoreboard is the only stat that matters.

I hate that hockey has become baseball with all these stupid effing stats.

imma sum it up for you

the stuff i wrote is what happened in the game

the score is the result

saying you only care about one but not the other doesn't make you favor winning, rather the opposite.

the stats aren't stupid because they're simple and explain a lot about the game. It's better to learn about them and understand what they are, rather than Bieksa your way through life, thinking that possession is a keep-away game.

CF (corsi for/against) = shot attempts percentage... basically when a shot is directed at the net, regardless if blocked or wide but as a percentage of the share of when they were on the ice... meaning who was in position to shoot more (offensive and defensive)

FF (fenwick for/against) = unblocked shot attempts... so basically sandins numbers show that more shots were being blocked when he was on the ice in our favor.

SF = shots for/against share

SCF = scoring chance for/against... so basically shots that actually had a reasonable chance to score

HDCF = high danger chance for/against... shots that were made in dangerous positions in front of the net

if everybody on the leafs had the advanced stats that sandin had every game, the leafs would have 75+ wins. the only reason it's not 82 is because goalies exist and they can steal games regardless of how their team plays in front of them.

 

[Morbo]

canot read this,way too thick, we are on small devices,until u make three sentence posts, i will never read anything from u.. just saying brother, have an eye, if not a heart.,

...you can't read a couple of paragraphs?

guess we really are in the twitter world now.

 

[francis246]

yes the team would be better off without him and having his 11m dollar cap hit broken into pieces to fill out the lineup

the great thing about being Johnny is nothing is ever his fault

-in jr it was the Gens couldn't build a team around him to have success
-traded to a stacked London team and still didn't go anywhere , not his fault though because the spits were stacked too and his teammates let him down
-9 yrs on the island and the story line was poor JT was stuck playing with pure shit , he leaves and it's 'Trotz is the only reason there performing so well"
-signs with Toronto and the team performs no better yet it everybody's else fault and it's poor Johnny who is being let down once again by his teammates

where's JT's accountability and why is he so special that all his teammates get thrown under the bus since he was 15 to deflect any criticism away from him ?

The Gen's were brutal, besides JT who did they have around him? Dale Mitchell, how's he doing? Besides Del Zotto, Andreoff, Neuvirth and JT no one even sniffed NHL time on the Gen's roster. They only got better in later years because London moved quality pieces to get him. Windsor was easily the best team in Junior at the time as well. How can you even blame Tavares in London? He had 50 points in 24 games after he was traded to London 2ppg... then had 21 points in 14 games in the playoffs... he absolutely dominated, what else did you want him to do? I swear some of you come up with nonsense just fit a narrative.

Same thing with the Islanders, they didn't get better because JT left. They got better because they finally allowed their guys to develop and they got an influx of young talent right around the time JT's contract ended. It's not JT's fault that the organization was completely incompetent while he was there. They iced some brutal teams, this is before they got Barzal and before Pulock, Anders Lee, Pelech all became the players they became. I'm sure they'd be even better with JT there. Don't try and twist the narrative. JT had a career year his first year here, people love to dwell on the negative. The fact of the matter is JT has been about a PPG player since joining the leafs. He definitely needs to step it up right now, but it's not on him. At the end of the day it's the two kids who fleeced Dubas have simply not been effective enough.

 

[notDatsyuk]

My favourite part was when the TSN panel kept insisting that it was a redirect.
Just towing the company line. Not an ounce of integrity if you added them all together.

Impressive. The refs, the video review people in Toronto, the coaches, the broadcast crew, and 99% of the people watching the game all got that call wrong, and only a very few Leafs fans got it right.

 

[Racer88]

imma sum it up for you

the stuff i wrote is what happened in the game

the score is the result

saying you only care about one but not the other doesn't make you favor winning, rather the opposite.

the stats aren't stupid because they're simple and explain a lot about the game. It's better to learn about them and understand what they are, rather than Bieksa your way through life, thinking that possession is a keep-away game.

CF (corsi for/against) = shot attempts percentage... basically when a shot is directed at the net, regardless if blocked or wide but as a percentage of the share of when they were on the ice... meaning who was in position to shoot more (offensive and defensive)

FF (fenwick for/against) = unblocked shot attempts... so basically sandins numbers show that more shots were being blocked when he was on the ice in our favor.

SF = shots for/against share

SCF = scoring chance for/against... so basically shots that actually had a reasonable chance to score

HDCF = high danger chance for/against... shots that were made in dangerous positions in front of the net

if everybody on the leafs had the advanced stats that sandin had every game, the leafs would have 75+ wins. the only reason it's not 82 is because goalies exist and they can steal games regardless of how their team plays in front of them.

I have to disagree with your last paragraph. Sandin may have these great numbers as far as the stats you listed goes but how many goals or points did he produce. This is not a rant against Sandin as I actually like him.
This is about how often these stats do not translate into goals and wins.
Take Corsi/for. If a player gets lots of shot directed at the net but continually misses the net or is block he would have great corsi numbers but I would argue that he has an awfully inaccurate shot and is also unable to get in the clear for a good shot that actually makes it to the net.
Take high danger shots, many times we see players in high danger areas shoot it right into the goalies crest or wildly miss the net. This again shows up as lots of “high danger” shot but gives a false evaluation of the players skill

if every one had Sandin stats were would the goals come from to win

 

[hotpaws]

The Gen's were brutal, besides JT who did they have around him? Dale Mitchell, how's he doing? Besides Del Zotto, Andreoff, Neuvirth and JT no one even sniffed NHL time on the Gen's roster. They only got better in later years because London moved quality pieces to get him. Windsor was easily the best team in Junior at the time as well. How can you even blame Tavares in London? He had 50 points in 24 games after he was traded to London 2ppg... then had 21 points in 14 games in the playoffs... he absolutely dominated, what else did you want him to do? I swear some of you come up with nonsense just fit a narrative.

Same thing with the Islanders, they didn't get better because JT left. They got better because they finally allowed their guys to develop and they got an influx of young talent right around the time JT's contract ended. It's not JT's fault that the organization was completely incompetent while he was there. They iced some brutal teams, this is before they got Barzal and before Pulock, Anders Lee, Pelech all became the players they became. I'm sure they'd be even better with JT there. Don't try and twist the narrative. JT had a career year his first year here, people love to dwell on the negative. The fact of the matter is JT has been about a PPG player since joining the leafs. He definitely needs to step it up right now, but it's not on him. At the end of the day it's the two kids who fleeced Dubas have simply not been effective enough.

who were the long list on NHLers when Marner or Kane led the Knights to the Mem cup ? and yes JT did put up points when he got there but the teams record was much worse with him which is obviously not his fault as well , lol

so for 9 yrs it was the Islanders organization was bereft of any talent but the exact second JT left quality players starting popping up everywhere ? lol , he's like the DeRozen of hockey , puts up stats but the team performs better without him

and here it's also not JT's fault either , it's now the 2 players who have outperformed him who are the problem and are holding back the team , but he'll hang around the net and vulture some points like the assist he got last game for doing nothing and his supporters will continue to blame anyone and everyone else if the team doesn't perform

 

[LaPlante94]

this isn't basketball where you can surround 3 stars with bargain bin players and think you'll win a title

Dubas f***ed this team the second he handed JT 11m ,

That's fair to say I guess. Our core are all elite players and we got the best goaltending and defence we've had in a long time so that core is still very much to blame for our playoff struggles. Tavares went down with injury so we can't really blame him. Nylander was by far our best player and took that next step so can't say anything about him. The other 2 though, they didn't. At least Tavares earned a bigger contract from his time as an Islander.

 

[hotpaws]

That's fair to say I guess. Our core are all elite players and we got the best goaltending and defence we've had in a long time so that core is still very much to blame for our playoff struggles. Tavares went down with injury so we can't really blame him. Nylander was by far our best player and took that next step so can't say anything about him. The other 2 though, they didn't. At least Tavares earned a bigger contract from his time as an Islander.

our core isn't all elite , AM and Marner are but JT isn't and it is yet to be seen if our D and goalies are the best we've had in a long time

the team has failed to advance for 5 straight years , the last 2 against supposedly weaker teams and it's on all of them including JT who did little his first 2 playoffs with us

also JT didn't earn a bigger contract , ufa's get overpaid which is fine but the problem is we overpaid for a player who doesn't play a position we were in need of and that is where the problem lies

 

[myleafs]

Really wanted Dubas to succeed.

Think the second he married himself to the core for this coming season, he was doomed.

I don't see any scenario where he survives this season, and sadly it'll be down to his loyalty for his guys. He deserved better.

I agree to wanting to see Dubas succeed and the scenario that he survives is at least a 1st round win imo. It is early but doubts are quickly creeping in after the first 2 games. High unrealistic hopes for castaways from other teams is starting to feel like a pipe dream. I am starting to wonder really for the first time if Dubas and Keefe for that matter have a grasp on what it takes to win at the nhl level. I want to be wrong about that and hope I am but at the same time, though it has only been two games I am not seeing a deep playoff team on the ice.

 

[myleafs]

People have a tough time believing that our team juat isn't very good. Our top 4 our nowhere near the best 4 on a team in the league. We have a very limited supporting cast. Give kids these days a lot of money and they party and are highly unmotivated. Seeing their attitude this summer, I was embarassed to be a Leaf fan. They don't care and the general manager seems to want to be pals rather than their boss. I predict they won't make the playoffs as the downward slide accelerates.

This line of thinking is def in the dark corners of my mind but Im trying to see the light and enjoy the season. Time will tell and will reveal all.

 

[myleafs]

I don’t agree with this. Do you for one second actually believe this team would be better without him? I think Kadri still gets traded because they don’t want to deal with his antics and then what does the Center depth look like then? Maybe you keep Kapanen and Brown. But I don’t think the leafs were ruined by the Tavares signing.

the problem since Dubas has taken over is there is zero accountability for Matthews and Marner specifically. Let’s call a spade a spade, those two run the show in Toronto. Coaches and management are afraid to lay into them. The biggest mistake Dubas made was firing Mike Babcock in my opinion. Because I believe Babcock would have gotten through to the group eventually.

Whatever you think about Babs and for me its not much but he had lost the room completely by the time he was let go. They had tuned him out.

 

[LaPlante94]

our core isn't all elite , AM and Marner are but JT isn't and it is yet to be seen if our D and goalies are the best we've had in a long time

the team has failed to advance for 5 straight years , the last 2 against supposedly weaker teams and it's on all of them including JT who did little his first 2 playoffs with us

also JT didn't earn a bigger contract , ufa's get overpaid which is fine but the problem is we overpaid for a player who doesn't play a position we were in need of and that is where the problem lies

He was a 30 goal guy and a PPG player his entire career on terrible coached teams with very average players at best. He earned his contract and could've got paid more to go play in California.

He's been here 3 seasons and we made the playoffs all 3 and he played well the 1st series. 2nd series he could've been better and last series he only played less than 10 mins?

Every team is in need of top tier centers. Without Tavares who is our #2C? Kadri? Kerfoot? Much easier to find better wingers who'll sign cheap then it is to find better centers who sign cheap and play in the top 6. Take Tavares out of our lineup and then what? Where does that money go to? Do we use most of that to re sign Rielly? Give me an example of what our lineup possibly could look like if we never signed him because I'm actually interested in seeing it because I doubt you can find a top 6 C who can bring what he does offensively and defensively.