Selänne vs Francis

[TheDevilMadeMe]

But see, the point is that while their teams have been largely a wash (see a post above), Francis outplays Selanne badly in the postseason.

I don't think their teams were really a wash. I think Selanne is a player who has more effect on how his team does in the regular season than Francis, so the Ducks without him were worse. I just got this from watching them play.

But anyway, Francis definitely does have the better postseason record by a pretty good margin. I do agree that Selanne barely got to play in the playoffs during his prime, so it is too small a sample to call him a playoff choker, but it is definitely underwhelming.

I have Francis in the 110-120 range on my top 120 list and I can't see him moving. I'm not sure where to put Selanne. If he had even decent playoff success, he would be a top 100 player for sure, but he definitely needs to be lowered because of it. I just don't know how much to lower him, because Selanne really was in a bad situation in terms of even getting chances to excel in the playoffs in Anaheim. He had no secondary scoring threat like a Ron Francis on the 2nd line for instance.

Yes, but your analogy fails hard. Ovechkin is akin to the Jagrs of Selannes era. Selanne isn't even close to him. You could use that argument to support that Jagr is better than Francis (obviously), but not Selanne. Selanne wasn't ever top-2, which is what Ovechkin has been pretty much all the time. And Parise is poor comparison to Francis as well.

Parise did have a better season in 08-09 than any season Francis had in his career, that is true. Sorry, I just had to say it.

I'm not sure of a good modern comparison. Selanne to Kovalchuk, maybe, though Selanne was always better at using his teammates than Kovalchuk. There was a thread here recently about who Francis compares best to and there was no consensus. Mikko Koivu was a name often mentioned, but I think he needs to get a little better offensively to be at Francis level (then obviously maintain that level for 20 years).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Exactly how many Hart-finalist seasons did he have? Wouldn't it be about the same as the mighty Yashin had? And couldn't it be the case that the Ducks had another, superior player playing alongside Selanne most of the time? Stop making Selanne into something he never was.

He was a Hart finalist once, when Kariya was injured. When Selanne was a Hart finalist, he was playing at the exact same level that he did for most of his seasons in Anaheim, so I said he had several "Hart-calibre seasons."

 

[MadArcand]

Parise did have a better season in 08-09 than any season Francis had in his career, that is true. Sorry, I just had to say it.

Oh c'mon, that's the trade proposal boards level.

Selanne's Hart finalist season was IMO abberation and mistake more than indication of his consistent Hart-level play.

 

[jepjepjoo]

I would pick francis just based on his whalers and hurricanes career. The gap between them seems big to me. Selanne had a good peak, but francis had the better two way game and playoffs, that more then nullifies whatever selanne did with the ducks.

And what would he have over Selanne based on his Whalers/Canes career?

regular season: 1186gp 382g 793a 1175pts (81-91, 98-04) <-- 9 of the seasons had higher scoring than any season Selanne ever played.

Playoffs: 62gp 14g 25a 39pts (86,87,88,89,90,99,01,02)

Once top10 in points (9th)

 

[quoipourquoi]

Selanne's Hart finalist season was IMO abberation and mistake more than indication of his consistent Hart-level play.

It was book-ended by seasons in which he finished no lower than second in both the goal and point races...

I'm not sure of a good modern comparison. Selanne to Kovalchuk, maybe, though Selanne was always better at using his teammates than Kovalchuk.

I honestly can't stand the Kovalchuk/Selanne comparisons.

Goals
Kovalchuk: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8
Selanne: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 10

Assists
Kovalchuk:
Selanne: 4, 7, 9, 9

Points
Kovalchuk: 2, 6, 8, 10
Selanne: 2, 2, 5, 5, 7, 8

All-Star
Kovalchuk: 2
Selanne: 1, 1, 2, 2


I know this isn't always the place for "Adjusted Points," but adjusted or not, Selanne's 1999 pretty much tramples over Kovalchuk's highest levels of play, as his 2007 his near equal to Kovalchuk's peak in itself.


It's off-topic to go on a tangent like this in the Francis thread, but jeez, do I hate that comparison to Kovalchuk. Fact is, there is no modern equivalent for Selanne, because Selanne is still relevant in the NHL (he's barely dipped below .50 goals per game each season since he recovered from injury, and 5th overall since the lockout). Selanne is still making his case against retired players, so maybe this is an argument to revisit when Selanne logs in a little bit more of the 550 games by which he trails Francis?

 

[canucks4ever]

And what would he have over Selanne based on his Whalers/Canes career?

regular season: 1186gp 382g 793a 1175pts (81-91, 98-04) <-- 9 of the seasons had higher scoring than any season Selanne ever played.

Playoffs: 62gp 14g 25a 39pts (86,87,88,89,90,99,01,02)

Once top10 in points (9th)

Both of selanne's second place finishes were with kariya. The only thing you can provide is stats because thats all teemu offers. He has no intangibles. I have nothing against selanne, watched him play millions of times, but when he gets matched up against the better player, i vote for the better player.

 

[Seanconn*]

Selanne saw fewer minutes. Selanne played much less shorthanded. Kariya was also the captain, not Selanne.

of course Kariya was going to be captain... but Selanne was A for a long time, and captain one year.


Selanne also hasn't shown any consistent top-10 offense without Kariya. And Francis carried weak Canes to Cup finals. Selanne never carried anything, and on average played on better teams anyway.

.

uggggh, wrong. 92/93, 95/96 (mostly points scored with the jets by far), and throw in 05/06 (90 and 13th in scoring), and 06/07 (94 and 11th in scoring) Ron Francis got his top 10 "without" Jagr in 01/02 by scoring 77 points... great.

Funny bonus playoff fact: Out of 8 seasons together, Francis outscored Jagr in playoffs four times, and always outscored him when the Pens made it past round 1. Selanne never outscored Kariya (granted, just two playofss together)
.

Ron Francis is a solid playmaker, but he also put a lot of his points in the mid 80s to mid 90's. Francis has also played with more talent around him than Selanne has. I just can't get over how u think Kariya is by far better than Selane or was more important to the ducks

try and think how many of jagrs goals were assists from Francis!

this is a hard comparison.. both players have similar points per game over long careers. Francis assits more, but Selanne gets underatted for his assisting, it's not like he's scored more goals than assists like bure. Selanne isn't a playmaker in the league of Forsberg or Franics... but Forsberg and Francis both had MANY MANY more chances to play with super talented people like Sakic, Mario, Jagr, Kovalev, Hejduk, Drury... then you take Selanne and Kariya who were pretty much the only offensive talent on the Ducks for a long time...

If Selanne and Kariya had the chance to play with a center like Fedorov, or Lindros they could have had 130+ seasons too, imo!

I vote Selanne, but Francis is very close.

 

[MadArcand]

uggggh, wrong. 92/93, 95/96 (mostly points scored with the jets by far), and throw in 05/06 (90 and 13th in scoring), and 06/07 (94 and 11th in scoring) Ron Francis got his top 10 "without" Jagr in 01/02 by scoring 77 points... great.

Yeah, because absolute numbers with no era context tell us so much...

And yes, no consistent top-10s - 11th and 13th aren't top 10, and one more isolated case in his rookie year (in 92-93 where everyone and their pet frog had career years) doesn't make any difference in that.

Ron Francis is a solid playmaker, but he also put a lot of his points in the mid 80s to mid 90's. Francis has also played with more talent around him than Selanne has. I just can't get over how u think Kariya is by far better than Selane or was more important to the ducks

try and think how many of jagrs goals were assists from Francis!

this is a hard comparison.. both players have similar points per game over long careers. Francis assits more, but Selanne gets underatted for his assisting, it's not like he's scored more goals than assists like bure. Selanne isn't a playmaker in the league of Forsberg or Franics... but Forsberg and Francis both had MANY MANY more chances to play with super talented people like Sakic, Mario, Jagr, Kovalev, Hejduk, Drury... then you take Selanne and Kariya who were pretty much the only offensive talent on the Ducks for a long time...

If Selanne and Kariya had the chance to play with a center like Fedorov, or Lindros they could have had 130+ seasons too, imo!

I vote Selanne, but Francis is very close.

Jagr > Kariya, obviously, but the third member was usually a scrub and not bloody Lemieux like many seem intent on to be mistaken...

 

[jepjepjoo]

Yeah, because absolute numbers with no era context tell us so much...

And yes, no consistent top-10s - 11th and 13th aren't top 10, and one more isolated case in his rookie year (in 92-93 where everyone and their pet frog had career years) doesn't make any difference in that.

2x1st, once 3rd and once 10th in goals without Kariya seems pretty consistent.

 

[MadArcand]

So now offense = goals only? News to me, guess Bondra also provided consistent top 10 offense...

 

[vulture77]

Selanne was quite easily superior offensive player to Francis, I don't see how this is even a question. It's Francis's career value and intangibles that push him ahead overall to me.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Selanne was quite easily superior offensive player to Francis, I don't see how this is even a question. It's Francis's career value and intangibles that push him ahead overall to me.

This is how I see it as well. Selanne's peak offensively was a fair bit higher than Francis but Ronnie's career is much better due to his longevity, leadership, defense and consistency.

15 seasons of 75 points or more is really quite an accomplishment for Francis.

Selanne has what.. 7 seasons of 75 or more?

 

[jepjepjoo]

This is how I see it as well. Selanne's peak offensively was a fair bit higher than Francis but Ronnie's career is much better due to his longevity, leadership, defense and consistency.

15 seasons of 75 points or more is really quite an accomplishment for Francis.

Selanne has what.. 7 seasons of 75 or more?

11 of those 15 seasons came in a very high scoring era and 3 on a very high scoring offensive minded team(some of the season could fall in the same category).

I could argue that Selanne was more consistent offensively:

Over 80 game seasons:

Selanne 5
Francis 12

Over 70 game seasons:

Selanne 12
Francis 19

Over 130 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 1
Francis 0

Over 120 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 2
Francis 1

Over 110 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 4
Francis 2

Over 100 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 6
Francis 4

Over 90 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 9
Francis 7

Over 75 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 11
Francis 13

Selanne really only had 9 relatively healthy seasons in the NHL (all of his over 70game seasons excluding 2 SJ years and 03-04) while Francis has 19 over 70 game seasons so Francis takes the longetivety argument, but Selanne was more consistent offensively.

Edit. All of Francis' over 100 adjusted points were with Jagr.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Both of selanne's second place finishes were with kariya. The only thing you can provide is stats because thats all teemu offers. He has no intangibles. I have nothing against selanne, watched him play millions of times, but when he gets matched up against the better player, i vote for the better player.

So you seriosly would take Francis over Selanne solely based on his play with Canes/Whalers while he only had one top10 placement and 1 good playoffs? Also the argument that offense is the only thing Selanne is good at is bull. He's not that bad defensively, he brings good leadership and is a great guy to have in your locker room (Seriosly has anyone ever said anything bad about Selanne as a person?)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So now offense = goals only? News to me, guess Bondra also provided consistent top 10 offense...

Give me a break with the Bondra comparison.

Selanne:

Top 10 points finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th
3 Times First Team All-Star
2 Times Second Team All-Star

Bondra:

Top 10 points finishes: None
0 Times First Team All-Star
0 Times Second Team All-Star

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

11 of those 15 seasons came in a very high scoring era and 3 on a very high scoring offensive minded team(some of the season could fall in the same category).

I could argue that Selanne was more consistent offensively:

Over 80 game seasons:

Selanne 5
Francis 12

Over 70 game seasons:

Selanne 12
Francis 19

Over 130 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 1
Francis 0

Over 120 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 2
Francis 1

Over 110 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 4
Francis 2

Over 100 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 6
Francis 4

Over 90 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 9
Francis 7

Over 75 adjusted point seasons:

Selanne 11
Francis 13

Selanne really only had 9 relatively healthy seasons in the NHL (all of his over 70game seasons excluding 2 SJ years and 03-04) while Francis has 19 over 70 game seasons so Francis takes the longetivety argument, but Selanne was more consistent offensively.

Edit. All of Francis' over 100 adjusted points were with Jagr.

And you'd be just as wrong as anyone saying that Francis was a better offensive player. Francis was obviously more consistent offensively - one of the most consistent players in history. You could count on Francis to provide a very consistent level of production for almost 20 years, and that was indeed quite valuable. (I consider Francis's own production with the Penguins on par with the rest of his career, despite the numbers).

Sure Selanne got injured - but those are still down seasons.

 

[MadArcand]

Give me a break with the Bondra comparison.

Selanne:

Top 10 points finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th
3 Times First Team All-Star
2 Times Second Team All-Star

Bondra:

Top 10 points finishes: None
0 Times First Team All-Star
0 Times Second Team All-Star

Yet their goalscoring finishes are a wash, and are all that jepjepjoo used.

 

[canucks4ever]

So you seriosly would take Francis over Selanne solely based on his play with Canes/Whalers while he only had one top10 placement and 1 good playoffs? Also the argument that offense is the only thing Selanne is good at is bull. He's not that bad defensively, he brings good leadership and is a great guy to have in your locker room (Seriosly has anyone ever said anything bad about Selanne as a person?)

Okay maybe i was being a bit sarcastic with that comment, but why am i going to argue, you pick selanne in every single poll. I always liked selanne and felt he was underrated by the media because they always gave more attention to his linemate paul kariya. Did he peak better than francis, yes. Did he peak better than oates, um no. Oates would score in the regular season, score in the playoffs, play defense and win face-offs. Selanne would score goals, and that's it. I have been to many canucks games at GM place when they played the ducks. I have seen selanne play in person, he was fast, very fast, but yeah he didn't really learn the defensive aspect of hockey from his hero jari kurri. I picked selanne over fleury and modano, even over francis is acceptable cuz francis had a weak peak, but he ain't better than Stastny or Oates, those 2 are just better, no adjusted stats are going to change that.

I do agree though that Selanne was always better than Kariya. I don't get why Kariya was always given more special treatment in 1996-2000 from the media, they always act like he had intangibles, he was basically an all offense player to and selanne usually outscored him.

 

[Starchild74]

Francis is indeed one of the best "all-round" centers of the last 30 years. But Selanne is just a "good winger?" Utterly laughable. Selanne himself is one of the best scoring wings of the last 30 years.

If Gms really would pick Francis over Selanne, then clearly they would be willing to pay more money for Francis's services. And the reality is, I'm pretty sure that Selanne was the higher paid player by quite a bit.

Francis was definitely the biggest "missing piece" in Pittsburgh, however.

I am not arguing that Selanne was not good but I would be hard pressed to say Selanne is one of the best scoring wingers in the last 30 years. I can for sure name at least 10 scoring wingers that were better then him. That is just counting goal scoring only, when you take into account a wingers all round play I could probably name 20 wingers that are better then Selanne in the last 30 years. Once again not taking anything away from Selanne but he should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Francis.

As far has who earned the most money. That is not a good argument for when Francis was in his prime years. Which one could say was between 1990-1998. Salaries were not like they are today. Also look at today. Is Wade Redden better then Brent Seabrook? Is Shawn Horcoff better then Ryan Getzlaf? Is Jason Blake better then Alexandre Burrows? So you can't go by salaries to determine who the better player is.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Okay maybe i was being a bit sarcastic with that comment, but why am i going to argue with you, you pick selanne in every single poll. Did he peak better than francis, yes. Did he peak better than oates, um no. Oates would score in the regular season, score in the playoffs, play defense and win face-offs. Selanne would score goals, and that's it. I have been to many canucks games at GM place when they played the ducks. I have seen selanne play in person, he was fast, very fast, but yeah he didn't really learn the defensive aspect of hockey from his hero jari kurri. I picked selanne over fleury and modano, even over francis is acceptable cuz francis had a weak peak, but he ain't better than Stastny or Oates.

I do agree though that Selanne was always better than Kariya. I don't get why Kariya was always given more special treatment in 1996-2000 from the media, they always act like he had intangibles, he was basically an all offense player to and selanne usually outscored him.

I think you're the only one out there who talks about Oates as an all-time great playoff performer. He wasn't bad in the playoffs, but definitely not as good as he was in the regular season.

As for Kariya, I agree with others that he had potential to be greater than Selanne, because he basically came into the league as a very young player already at a similar level. He just never got better.

 

[canucks4ever]

I think you're the only one out there who talks about Oates as an all-time great playoff performer. He wasn't bad in the playoffs, but definitely not as good as he was in the regular season.

As for Kariya, I agree with others that he had potential to be greater than Selanne, because he basically came into the league as a very young player already at a similar level. He just never got better.

He's no joe sakic in the playoffs, but he still scored.

 

[jepjepjoo]

And you'd be just as wrong as anyone saying that Francis was a better offensive player. Francis was obviously more consistent offensively - one of the most consistent players in history. You could count on Francis to provide a very consistent level of production for almost 20 years, and that was indeed quite valuable. (I consider Francis's own production with the Penguins on par with the rest of his career, despite the numbers).

Sure Selanne got injured - but those are still down seasons.

Obviosly it depends on the definition of "consistent" and I really was just replying to how misleading this is:

15 seasons of 75 points or more is really quite an accomplishment for Francis.

Selanne has what.. 7 seasons of 75 or more?

Francis' played in the most offensive era of the history of the NHL. It's not like 75 points in the 80's is the same as it was during the dead puck era. Of course 15 seasons with over 75 points is great, but it's actually alot closer between him and Selanne than the raw numbers suggest 11vs13 (or 10vs12 if you take out 94-95).

 

[vulture77]

I picked selanne over fleury and modano, even over francis is acceptable cuz francis had a weak peak, but he ain't better than Stastny or Oates.

Well I voted Selanne over Oates, but I thought he is worse than Francis all-time.

I might have undervalued Oates's peak. In any case I don't think the three players are that much far apart from each other.

Selanne leads in individual hardware, Francis has the career numbers, Oates's stats look weakest, but his peak might have been highest and he is probably the second best playmaking center after Gretzky or arguably Lemieux.

 

[jepjepjoo]

I could probably name 20 wingers that are better then Selanne in the last 30 years. Once again not taking anything away from Selanne but he should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Francis.

Ok, name them. I'm actually curious to see your list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Obviosly it depends on the definition of "consistent" and I really was just replying to how misleading this is:



Francis' played in the most offensive era of the history of the NHL. It's not like 75 points in the 80's is the same as it was during the dead puck era. Of course 15 seasons with over 75 points is great, but it's actually alot closer between him and Selanne than the raw numbers suggest 11vs13 (or 10vs12 if you take out 94-95).

This is true. 75 points in the 1980s is incredibly unimpressive. Any average first liner should have been able to score that in the 1980s.