Seeking Historical Perspective: Crosby/Malkin and Mario/Jagr

[StutzlesTapeJob]

Note: This is not a who is better.

From those who saw more games from the Mario/Jagr era, i was wondering how the supporting players and team as a whole played around them.

For Sid and Geno, it seems many of our players always defer to them and play hockey that involves a good deal of "watching the play". Specifically true when DB juggles the lines.

Was this the same when Mario and Jagr were in their prime? Did the pens have more talent then with Francis and such to support them?

I don't intend to spark debate, it is more a question for my own musings which I was hoping to build perspective on.

Thanks!

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[ColePens]

Different eras, my friend. It's really hard to have this discussion. Even the role of specific players was different. Plus the game has really evolved to the point where parity is quite ubiquitous.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Offensively I really feel the 90's teams were much more dominant. The supporting players we had like Recchi, Stevens, Francis, Straka, Mullen, Brown, Kovalev in the late 90's adding to that offensive defensemans like we had Coffey, Murphy, Zubov, Hatcher

 

[Illinest]

I remember there would be problems with deference at times but it was more likely to be a new guy like zubov when he was with the team. It also was a bit different because jagr liked to isolate himself against a defenseman and bull around him. With young jagr on the line you basically wanted to let him do the work of getting the puck to the net. Then with lemieux he was on a different level from the other three.

 

[Bengui]

The 90s teams had more HHOFers then you can count on your fingers...

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I remember there would be problems with deference at times but it was more likely to be a new guy like zubov when he was with the team. It also was a bit different because jagr liked to isolate himself against a defenseman and bull around him. With young jagr on the line you basically wanted to let him do the work of getting the puck to the net. Then with lemieux he was on a different level from the other three.

Not just defense but I would never ever have any faith what's so ever in Barrasso and Wregget. I don't care how much of a lead we had I would always panic and feel like we needed at least a minimum of 6 goals to win

 

[Vegeta]

I swear Tommy B is the most underrated penguin on this board.

 

[vikingGoalie]

intersting topic. been a penguins fan since 83. and I'm an unabashed mario fan.

These days with a cap and better training regimens players are not showing up to camp to get into shape, nor can any one team really roll out a roster where literally 1/3 of them will be in the HOF. I mean heck Ron Francis gets no respect and he's FOURTH all time for points.

However, Crosby and Makin need to dominate for a long period of time to realistically be compared to Mario/Jagr. I also don't recall Jagr/Mario disappearing for long stretches during the season. Jagr was damn good at the same time that Mario was.

That and there just aren't stories like getting off a plane after your last chemo treatment and playing. Or being in so much pain you can't lace your own skates up, but yet winning scoring titles while doing so. I mean you can't make up a better story then some of this. I think Crosby if he can have some longevity will start to edge his way into the conversation, but he's just not really that close yet.

Lest we forget, Mario was not what he was when he came back to play again.
He had 76 points in 43 games in 2000 when he first came back.
His last season he looked like a broken down tractor, his hip was a wreck he had heart issues and he *still* put up 22pts in 26 games in 2006. This being during the era of greater parity (still not quite what it is now) and certainly better overall conditioned atheletes in the NHL.

Throw in Jagr who has a closet of scoring titles and harts, just not quite at the same level imo.

but the story is still being written.

 

[NastyNick]

Mario's defensive game would make Ovechkin look like Bobby Orr. He also never took care of himself - constantly smoked, always had some injury nagging him. There is no questioning his size and skill, but there is no doubt he could have been greater than he was.

Crosby, on the other hand, is on top of the NHL at a time when the overall talent in the league is much higher. I think he has reached his peak - and his current peak is higher then Mario's ever was. More is demanded of the individual player now - including staying in shape, knowing the offensive schemes, playing defense, etc. The goaltending is leagues ahead of what it was during Mario's days as well. Just having the butterfly style has eliminated low shots that use to be difficult to stop.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

91-93 or so i don't think there's any doubt those pens were stacked with talent and excellent role players top to bottom. Even good teams played crap defense back then though so structurally the current team would look much more defensively sound. From 94 on i think CP lost his way and built a fairly one dimensional, offensive minded, soft team. They were an 80s team stuck in a trapping league. The penguins teams now are not quite as good as the early 90s overall, but much more well rounded than the teams from the mid and late 90s.

 

[Dying Alive]

The 90s teams had more HHOFers then you can count on your fingers...

Watching the early 90s Penguins was nuts. They were basically an All Star team. As far as Mario goes, all I can really say is that I've never seen a player since who I had as much fun watching. The closest I've probably seen is Geno when he's really playing well, and even then it's not all that close. Mario would just take over a game and do things that were amazing and you couldn't believe you just saw. Watching Jagr's early career was also amazing. You could tell back then that he was really having fun just playing hockey, before all of the pouting and dying alive stuff came about.

Even though I was fairly young I still have tons of memories of watching those early 90s Pens teams play. To me it's apples and oranges when you look at the current team. One thing that hasn't changed is that Pens fans have been beyond lucky to get to see all of the talent we have seen come through the organization. I think it's taken for granted more often than not.

 

[Eli Cash]

The games were a lot of fun to see, but the defense almost seemed like it was non-existent. The Pens never seemed to have that shut-down pair. It was fun when other teams tried to play run-and-gun with them though, because you'd end up with these 7-6 scores.

Also, the 90s Pens were incredible when the goalie was pulled. Seemed like they scored the tying goal a fair amount of the time. I wonder if there are any stats available to see how many times they scored with the goalie pulled.

As far as Lemieux and Jagr go...it really is apples to oranges when comparing to Crosby and Malkin. I was 5 years old to 15 years old during this era, but I always got a sense that everything was going to be ok as long as one of them was on the ice. I actually felt it the most with Francis to tell you the truth. Such a complete player to watch. Jagr isn't really comparable to anyone I've seen in the NHL...ever. A young Jagr with the puck along the boards was impossible to defend.

Man, we were lucky.

 

[ZapRowsdower13]

I swear Tommy B is the most underrated penguin on this board.

Not to me you're not Mr. Barrasso, not to me. You might have been a jerk but it's undeniable you're one of the reasons we won the two cups in the early 90's.

Mario's defensive game would make Ovechkin look like Bobby Orr. He also never took care of himself - constantly smoked, always had some injury nagging him. There is no questioning his size and skill, but there is no doubt he could have been greater than he was.

Crosby, on the other hand, is on top of the NHL at a time when the overall talent in the league is much higher. I think he has reached his peak - and his current peak is higher then Mario's ever was. More is demanded of the individual player now - including staying in shape, knowing the offensive schemes, playing defense, etc. The goaltending is leagues ahead of what it was during Mario's days as well. Just having the butterfly style has eliminated low shots that use to be difficult to stop.

Good sir is your career of choice being DEAD WRONG?!?!!? Marios defensive game is FAR and away better than Ovies, and a lot of others for that matter. I'm not saying he's a Datsyuk, Federov, Gilmore or even Francis but to say someone like Ovie was better is just wrong on so many levels. Marios +/- is +115, Ovies is +74, respectable and will probably get better but remember the teams mario was on in the '80s? Shorthanded goals is Mario 49 to Ovies 4 bc Mario killed penalties in his game.While neither will ever be thought for their defensive prowess putting AO ahead of Lemieux is balderdash. Can some of our elder statesmen recall his defensive game from his early years?

Then saying Crosbys peak is higher than Marios is just one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Lemieux is one of the top 3 players ever, Sid while great will be lucky to be Top 10. I'll give it to you that times are different but Crosby has the same advantages working for him that make the game faster and tougher than what it once was.

Best point you have is how awfully Mario took care of himself. He didn't start lifting weights til he had his chemo treatments.

Otherwise good discussion on the topic.

 

[theicebox]

I believe the proper question would be Crosby/Malkin/Vitale vs. Lemieux/Jagr/Caufield.

 

[Shady Machine]

Mario's defensive game would make Ovechkin look like Bobby Orr. He also never took care of himself - constantly smoked, always had some injury nagging him. There is no questioning his size and skill, but there is no doubt he could have been greater than he was.

Crosby, on the other hand, is on top of the NHL at a time when the overall talent in the league is much higher. I think he has reached his peak - and his current peak is higher then Mario's ever was. More is demanded of the individual player now - including staying in shape, knowing the offensive schemes, playing defense, etc. The goaltending is leagues ahead of what it was during Mario's days as well. Just having the butterfly style has eliminated low shots that use to be difficult to stop.

Keep dreaming brother. Sid is not Mario (nor does he need to be). Sid is in better physical shape than Mario, but no one could take over a game like that man. Not Sid, not Geno (although his Carolina series was as dominant as I've seen since Lemieux).

 

[smetana]

Mario's defense makes Ovie look like Orr? Okay, sure.

Lemieux was prone to show up defensively only when he felt like it (which was not all the time), but when he applied himself (read: in the playoffs) he was a dominating defensive presense, with his big wingspan, ability to pickpocket opposing players, and relentless backchecking. His penalty killing put genuine fright into opposition point men.

I use to love watching him play D when he was in that groove. Just nonstop rush, followed by backcheck, followed by rush, backcheck, steal, etc...

 

[Pancakes]

You don't really have to play much d when you're Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky. At that point your offensive talents are so much greater than anybody else's that the coach gives you free reign to do what you will.

Malkin when he is on is somewhat that way too. He'll cheat up the ice and take defensive risks but you sure as hell don't care that much when he's giving you a three point game and having the puck on his stick the entire game. Of course Geno isn't Lemieux and doesn't have that consistency of putting up points so when he's cold like he is now you tend to notice the risks more because he's not giving you those huge offensive nights.

Sid is different because his offensive game doesn't rely on taking risks. He plays a full two-way game and still puts up massive amounts of points. I sometimes wonder how many points he'd put up if he played riskier like Malkin does. Although in Malkin's defense despite those offensive risks he can still sometimes dominate a game defensively just because of his immense talent at takeaways. He's far better at those than Sid is.

 

[#66]

I swear Tommy B is the most underrated penguin on this board.

Good call. Sure he was a jerk but the guy put wins over personal stats. That says all that needs to be said about him. Best American goalie of all time IMO unless you want to count Brimsek and who knows how he really played.

There was a great post made in another thread that was downright awesome. Crosby and Malkin are having teams built around them. Mario and Jags had teams as an extention of them. Sure that extention was slanted towards offense but the defensive holes were plugged up too. Guy like Mullen, Francis and Tocchet were brought in as two way players. The thing that was so great about those days was that teams had an offensive line, a two way line and a checking line. No we see 1 system that a team plays. Skilled players get some freedom but they are still slaves to the system.

Sure its a different era now but I really hate teams being built to cater to a system that I hate to some degree. Shero's building teams to fit the system. A system where wingers are more swingmen than goal scorers. Once those swingmen get taken away it forces the Pens to carry the puck up ice through the middle so over active defensemen are needed.

 

[Marcus Halberstram*]

Mario's defensive game would make Ovechkin look like Bobby Orr. He also never took care of himself - constantly smoked, always had some injury nagging him. There is no questioning his size and skill, but there is no doubt he could have been greater than he was.

Crosby, on the other hand, is on top of the NHL at a time when the overall talent in the league is much higher. I think he has reached his peak - and his current peak is higher then Mario's ever was. More is demanded of the individual player now - including staying in shape, knowing the offensive schemes, playing defense, etc. The goaltending is leagues ahead of what it was during Mario's days as well. Just having the butterfly style has eliminated low shots that use to be difficult to stop.

All due respect to you and Sid, as I am a HUGE fan of Sid's, but there is no way, no how, under any circumstances, that's Sid's
"peak is higher than Mario's ever was".

Not sure if you were too young to have actually seen Mario play, but he was on a whole other level than Sid or Geno or Jags. Those two playoff runs in particular where they won back to back Cups, I have NEVER witnessed ANY player dominate the way Lemieux did. He was head and shoulders above everyone.

 

[wgknestrick]

I remember Mario being almost automatic if he ever got a break away. I have never seen someone score so consistently against goaltenders 1v1 as he did. His backhand, 5 hole move was unstoppable. Goalies knew it was coming and still couldn't do anything about it.

Crosby is not even close to Mario and never will be. Crosby is close to Jagr, but still not better than him.

 

[Pens1566]

Mario's defensive game would make Ovechkin look like Bobby Orr. He also never took care of himself - constantly smoked, always had some injury nagging him. There is no questioning his size and skill, but there is no doubt he could have been greater than he was.

Crosby, on the other hand, is on top of the NHL at a time when the overall talent in the league is much higher. I think he has reached his peak - and his current peak is higher then Mario's ever was. More is demanded of the individual player now - including staying in shape, knowing the offensive schemes, playing defense, etc. The goaltending is leagues ahead of what it was during Mario's days as well. Just having the butterfly style has eliminated low shots that use to be difficult to stop.

You couldn't be any more mistaken about Lemieux's defensive game. He played regularly on the PK and was more than capable in his own end. Skating on the defensive side of his own blueline already makes him a better defensive player than Ovechkin.

 

[Al Smith]

Supporting cast offensively isn't close today. Defensively, probably a bit better. Fleury v. Barrasso? Call it a tossup.

It's really hard to compare - different eras - much more talent today and spread out more evenly, better and bigger goalies with bigger pads today, etc.

Pens fans should consider themselves fortunate to have been able to watch both pairs,plus Francis, for as long as they have. Of course, there was that dead Penguin period in between.

 

[Al Smith]

I remember Mario being almost automatic if he ever got a break away. I have never seen someone score so consistently against goaltenders 1v1 as he did. His backhand, 5 hole move was unstoppable. Goalies knew it was coming and still couldn't do anything about it.

Crosby is not even close to Mario and never will be. Crosby is close to Jagr, but still not better than him.

Goalies are WAY better today than back then. I doubt Mario would be as automatic today as he was then.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Goalies are WAY better today than back then. I doubt Mario would be as automatic today as he was then.

He had one of the best, most accurate wrist shots in the league and could pick a corner with a flick of his wrist. He could also stickhandle better than any other big man in the history of the game, his reach gave goalies nightmares. He'd still be the best on a breakaway in this era.

He could embarrass players and goalies and make it look so casual/effortless.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think the cap world makes it impossible to even compare the two eras. While I don't think Sid/Geno will ever dominate as much as Mario/Jagr, I also would like to see how Sid/Geno could do with the actual supporting cast that Mario and Jagr had.

I mean, we're salivating at names like Setoguchi, Stewart, Ryder, etc. Meanwhile, Mario and Jagr had names such as Stevens, Tocchet, Francis, Kovalev, Nedved, Mullen, etc. to play with.

Could you imagine the damage Sid and Geno could do if, hypothetically, Sid had a prime Stevens and a prime Tocchet on his line, while Geno had Neal but also a prime Francis on his line?