Injury Report: Sean Couturier back injuries/surgeries beginning Sept. 2022; missed entire 2022-23 season

[ProcessThis]

Can't wait for Coots to come back 100%, be a finalist for the Selke and lead the Flyers to the eighth seed and first round exit. It's gonna be lit.

 

[FlyRoutine]

When you rebuild, you want a couple anchor veterans to hold the team together while young players develop.
Those veterans need to be true mentors more than elite talents.
Couts is exactly what you'd want, a center who raises the game of most of his wings, and will be a guy that can help young players adjust to the NHL.

What you don't want is a chaotic situation with no anchor veterans where talented youngsters struggle for a few years, then end up elsewhere to get it together.

Coots fits the role of a veteran leader very well if he is fit to play. Still, if you dont have the prospect pool, whats the veteran presence good for? The only two true blue chippers are Michkov and Gauthier. The Flyers need to add at least 2 more blue chippers to be serious about building a contending team. Preferably at least a top D and a top center prospect. And this fast or this team will once again waste many years of some elite players.

It would be optimal though if the Flyers could manage to keep Coots and significantly elevate their prospect pool fast.

 

[mr4tno]

It’s a catch-22 with trading Coots. In order for him to be tradable with his giant contract, and help the rebuild, he needs to have a productive season(s). But if he has a productive season(s), the team might not want to trade him, further not helping the rebuild.

He also has a full NMC. Forget any sort of value in return, even if he rebounds, which is still best case.

So basically what we are saying is that he will never win a cup, or at the very least if he finally does it will be as a bit player. Sad commentary for someone who has excelled for over a decade. But that is the problem with max term deals to 30 year old players, regardless of injury history.

 

[BernieParent]

When you rebuild, you want a couple anchor veterans to hold the team together while young players develop.
Those veterans need to be true mentors more than elite talents.
Couts is exactly what you'd want, a center who raises the game of most of his wings, and will be a guy that can help young players adjust to the NHL.

What you don't want is a chaotic situation with no anchor veterans where talented youngsters struggle for a few years, then end up elsewhere to get it together.

Right, exactly. A couple as in two. One forward and one defense.

 

[Curufinwe]

Typo in the tile: Should be 22-23 season

 

[Beef Invictus]

When you rebuild, you want a couple anchor veterans to hold the team together while young players develop.
Those veterans need to be true mentors more than elite talents.
Couts is exactly what you'd want, a center who raises the game of most of his wings, and will be a guy that can help young players adjust to the NHL.

What you don't want is a chaotic situation with no anchor veterans where talented youngsters struggle for a few years, then end up elsewhere to get it together.

Well, they aren't rebuilding anyway. And the team's idea of "anchor veterans" is less "Couturier" and more "Hathaway/Deslauriers/Seeler" so that's definitely not their line of thinking.

 

[TheKingPin]

Okay, I'll actually not shit post for once. Point about maximizing value is an absolutely fair one, especially in the wake of Fletcher who did the opposite that his entire tenure here. However, in the case of the Flyers right now the biggest " trade ship " they have is to just be awful. Be awful to maximize an influx of top of the draft talent during the time Michkov is still in Russia.

This isn't to say trade him to anyone that'll take him out of desperation for little return, but I don't think it's prudent for the Flyers to spin their wheels waiting/hoping he plays well or keeps playing well in an effort to inflate a trade value balloon that could potentially pop one out or the next in Couts' specific situation. To make things simple, A perfect world sees coots' time as a flyer come to a close within the next 2 trade deadlines if he has any legitimate value at all

The obvious flip side to this is between the injury history, contract, and no movement clause a trade market could very well be non-existent. I get that. So keep that in mind whenever I shit post about trading everybody right now

I used a lot of speech to text here so if there's any funny spellings or anything blame that

Yea I don’t care about the return for Couts. Just remove him and make Cates your 1C with a bad goalie. That should just about do it.

We have a unique situation. Other teams are already signing and burning ELC. Bedard will raise the Hawks out of the basement on his own. We can be very bad with our superstar having a set interval to join. If they do it right AND hit, you could be looking at a very strong team. 1C and 1D are minimum though. I think they need a 2C and 2D as well.

 

[Curufinwe]

Yea I don’t care about the return for Couts. Just remove him and make Cates your 1C with a bad goalie. That should just about do it.

There is no return for a player with his contract and recent injury history.

 

[mr figgles]

Nah, trade him at the deadline if he players well

No team is taking on that contract at the deadline

 

[ponder719]

The earliest point I could see us successfully moving Couturier is next offseason, if he puts up a fully healthy year and looks mostly like his old self. An 80+% recovered Couturier, retained at 50%, should return something worthwhile enough to justify a deal. (If he's not at least 80% of his old self, then all bets are off.) That said, I could see Danny keeping him around as the captain and veteran mentor, though that probably means he never wins a Cup, as mentioned above.

 

[Curufinwe]

Retaining 50% for six years isn't worth doing.

 

[TheKingPin]

There is no return for a player with his contract and recent injury history.

I think he will do well this season and then can start talking trades this coming offseason. Not sure if that will be enough proving time, but if the cap moves up a lot soon then I can see a team like the Avs adding him and likely winning a few cups.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Yea I don’t care about the return for Couts. Just remove him and make Cates your 1C with a bad goalie. That should just about do it.

We have a unique situation. Other teams are already signing and burning ELC. Bedard will raise the Hawks out of the basement on his own. We can be very bad with our superstar having a set interval to join. If they do it right AND hit, you could be looking at a very strong team. 1C and 1D are minimum though. I think they need a 2C and 2D as well.

I think Frost and York might be those things if they let them.

I've said it elsewhere, but my great fear for this season is that you get back 75% Couturier and Frost hits ~65 points and, even with the atrocious defense, you're suddenly looking at a 10th place team in the East. At which point the Flyers immediately announce that John Tortorella is coach for life.

And I mean, if the plan is to just slot York into Provorov's minutes...the defense might not be significantly worse than it was last year. If Sanheim bounces back somewhat then we're truly f***ed.

 

[Curufinwe]

The only East team with a worse roster is Montreal.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think Frost and York might be those things if they let them.

I've said it elsewhere, but my great fear for this season is that you get back 75% Couturier and Frost hist ~65 points and, even with the atrocious defense, you're suddenly looking at a 10th place team in the East. At which point the Flyers immediately announce that John Tortorella is coach for life.

And I mean, if the plan is to just slot York into Provorov's minutes...the defense might not be significantly worse than it was last year. If Sanheim bounces back somewhat then we're truly f***ed.

Tortorella won't let that happen, fortunately. He despises that Frost is a creative offensive player, so he will spend most of the season behind Cates again. That 4th line production is Tortorella's idea of ideal.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Tortorella won't let that happen, fortunately. He despises that Frost is a creative offensive player, so he will spend most of the season behind Cates again. That 4th line production is Tortorella's idea of ideal.

imagine calling one of your youth players a toilet seat..

#oldmanyellsatclouds

 

[TheKingPin]

I think Frost and York might be those things if they let them.

I've said it elsewhere, but my great fear for this season is that you get back 75% Couturier and Frost hist ~65 points and, even with the atrocious defense, you're suddenly looking at a 10th place team in the East. At which point the Flyers immediately announce that John Tortorella is coach for life.

And I mean, if the plan is to just slot York into Provorov's minutes...the defense might not be significantly worse than it was last year. If Sanheim bounces back somewhat then we're truly f***ed.

Frost is not a 65 pt imo. I’m assuming we don’t have an elite 1C till it happens. So the 2C has to be that much better. I see Frost as a 3C on a good team.

I think we will be able to get away with a non elite 1C since we will have a play driving wing with him. But still need those pieces.

I’m good with York on the top pair, but would love if he was forced to be on the middle pair. We have 2 x 1W so far. Not bad given their talent so far but need the top pieces.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Frost is not a 65 pt imo. I’m assuming we don’t have an elite 1C till it happens. So the 2C has to be that much better. I see Frost as a 3C on a good team.

I think we will be able to get away with a non elite 1C since we will have a play driving wing with him. But still need those pieces.

I’m good with York on the top pair, but would love if he was forced to be on the middle pair. We have 2 x 1W so far. Not bad given their talent so far but need the top pieces.

Frost could hit 65 points pretty easily in this league if he wasn't playing on this team. He played just below that pace for the majority of the season. His Even Strength per 60 numbers are pretty good—even with terrible usage for the first 3 months, he still scored at a better even strength rate than Tavares, Necas, Meier, Schiefele, JT Miller, Horvat, and quite a few other guys who most certainly eclipsed 65 points.

For the first third of the season he was getting only about 14:27 a night—often with at least Deslauriers chained to his ankle. With that icetime and usage, he produced a whopping 6 points in 27 games. For the last two thirds of the season, his usage jumped up by nearly 3 minutes to 17:17 and he got to play with some real NHL players, like Tippett. And what do you know? 40 points in 54 games (a 60 point pace).

The biggest issues are 1: that he plays for a dolt coach on an awful team so he's liable to be underutilized or paired with duds who bring him down, and 2: their PP is utter garbage. Only 5 of his 46 points were scored on the PP. He had the same number of even strength points as Tavares, just had 34 less PP points.

Frost is absolutely good enough to score 65 points in the NHL, and would likely already be a lock to do so on a less incompetent club.

(btw, this is probably what his agent is telling Briererella right now while arguing that he deserves more money)

 

[TheKingPin]

Frost could hit 65 points pretty easily in this league if he wasn't playing on this team. He played just below that pace for the majority of the season. His Even Strength per 60 numbers are pretty good—even with terrible usage for the first 3 months, he still scored at a better even strength rate than Tavares, Necas, Meier, Schiefele, JT Miller, Horvat, and quite a few other guys who most certainly eclipsed 65 points.

For the first third of the season he was getting only about 14:27 a night—often with at least Deslauriers chained to his ankle. With that icetime and usage, he produced a whopping 6 points in 27 games. For the last two thirds of the season, his usage jumped up by nearly 3 minutes to 17:17 and he got to play with some real NHL players, like Tippett. And what do you know? 40 points in 54 games (a 60 point pace).

The biggest issues are 1: that he plays for a dolt coach on an awful team so he's liable to be unerutilized or paired with duds who bring him down, and 2: their PP is utter garbage. Only 5 of his 46 points were scored on the PP. He had the same number of even strength points as Tavares, just had 34 less PP points.

Frost is absolutely good enough to score 65 points in the NHL, and would likely already be a lock to do so on a less incompetent club.

(btw, this is probably what his agent is telling Briererella right now while arguing that he deserves more money)

I’d love it if true but I think he will be in the 40s and maybe 50s

 

[Rich Nixon]

I’d love it if true but I think he will be in the 40s and maybe 50s

Uh, OK, but everything in my post is true, those are all real numbers and comparisons. If he gets appropriate usage (17+ minutes nightly with half-decent linemates), the only thing barring him from easily hitting high 50s to low 60s would be a significant regression on his part. Watching him play, that isn't surprising. He's an excellent puck carrier and makes nothing but good decisions in the offensive zone.

 

[TheKingPin]

Uh, OK, but everything in my post is true, those are all real numbers and comparisons. If he gets appropriate usage (17+ minutes nightly with half-decent linemates), the only thing barring him from easily hitting high 50s to low 60s would be a significant regression on his part. Watching him play, that isn't surprising. He's an excellent puck carrier and makes nothing but good decisions in the offensive zone.

I don’t see him as consistent as you do I guess. Injuries or just cold streaks will be there. Maybe that’s his ppg if it’s the former but a total of 65 pts on this team, I dont see. I don’t think he will be with high end wingers with Couts back. I don’t see the usage. A lot players in this bracket have streaks of strong play and cold ones as well to bring the avg down.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I don’t see him as consistent as you do I guess. Injuries or just cold streaks will be there. Maybe that’s his ppg if it’s the former but a total of 65 pts on this team, I dont see. I don’t think he will be with high end wingers with Couts back. I don’t see the usage. A lot players in this bracket have streaks of strong play and cold ones as well to bring the avg down.

Yeah he had hot and cold streaks during that 54 game stretch, and the result was a 60 point pace for 2/3rds of a season where he usage was very different then the 1st third.

You're talking about a kid that just cracked 150 games. If anything he should be moving into a point is his development arc where he will get more consistent.

There is really no reason to think he can't replicate that play for a full season moving forward 55-60 points is a pretty reasonable projection. Especially since the return on Coots should boost the PP which Frost could very well benefit from.

 

[dats81]

What is the ideal outcome with Couts this season assuming he can stay healthy?

I'm torn between making him the C and have him mentor the kids or to trade him to the highest bidder with some retention for a haul.

 

[DancingPanther]

What is the ideal outcome with Couts this season assuming he can stay healthy?

I'm torn between making him the C and have him mentor the kids or to trade him to the highest bidder with some retention for a haul.

Trade him obviously

 

[Rich Nixon]

What is the ideal outcome with Couts this season assuming he can stay healthy?

I'm torn between making him the C and have him mentor the kids or to trade him to the highest bidder with some retention for a haul.

I don't think that's realistic. One, if they retained they'd be paying part of his deal till 2030. Two, maybe conditions will change with a cap bump next summer, but everything this summer showed that guys with considerable cap hits and term on the wrong side of 30 are returning next to nothing--even if they are pretty or very good. You'd need him to play at his pre-injury level for a couple seasons to prove to the league he was OK, and by the time you've done that you're talking about trying to move a 33-year-old center with 5 years left still. Not a lot of options there.