Confirmed with Link: Scott Arneil goes to New York to join AV as associate coach

[Sergei Shirokov]

Thank god he's gone

 

[TruGr1t]

Wonder how Nash and Brassard are feeling about Arniel ending back up coaching them

No kidding. People can try to explain Arniel's failures with all sorts of redundant bull, but the fact is he's been totally crap as a head coach since his second year in Columbus, and rightfully cannot find another NHL head coaching gig. Maybe he's a solid assistant ... I dunno, but as soon as AV went and Torts came I'd assume that was not an option anyway.

 

[Amused To Death]

Arniel's handling of the goalie situation down in Chicago was kind of bizarre, but agree that the criticisms of him may be overblown here.

 

[canuck4life16]

so are we expecting former NY Ranger assistant coach to come to vancouver now as the associate.......? Probably another switch of coaches of Vancouver and NY

 

[dc]

Let's blame Vigneault for his top line getting outplayed/outscored by almost every other teams third line in the playoffs for the last few years..

 

[Virtanen2Horvat]

Good to know we got rid of a crappy coach and hopefully our prospects will be developing better and being used right. Jensen on defence

 

[mossey3535]

I've heard all of it.

Same sort of armchair quarterback niggly stuff we hear about Vigneault - didn't dress the right fringe player, didn't play the backup goalie enough, should have had his top 2 lines arranged a bit differently.

He's the exact same coach that our fanbase pretty much universally considered a terrific minor-pro coach when he was here 3-4 years ago.

Defaulting to 'it's not the coaches fault because all the players suck' is just as shortsighted as 'it's all the coaches fault, the players don't suck'.

Just because you yell louder than everyone else doesn't make you right. And AV's problems extended far beyond backup goalies and fringe players.

Tell me - have you actually watched any Wolves games or are you just speaking out of general principle here on a situation you haven't actually seen firsthand?

 

[MS]

Defaulting to 'it's not the coaches fault because all the players suck' is just as shortsighted as 'it's all the coaches fault, the players don't suck'.

I gave several examples of players who developed well this year, and mentioned that everyone legitimately good down there had a solid season and moved up to the NHL. I'm not just painting everything black/white. Likewise, the players he gets most blamed for having poor seasons were guys who were already developing very poorly under previous coaches.

He's not a perfect coach and didn't have his best season (like players, not all seasons are the same) but the criticisms here are ridiculous.

It seems the new trend on message boards is to micro-analyse coaches, rip them apart as idiots when very minor coaching decisions don't agree with the message board consensus, overblow the potential effects of those very minor decisions, and then use that to blame every possible negative associated with the team on the coach.

It's what's happened to Vigneault over the past two seasons here and what happened to Arniel this year.

Just because you yell louder than everyone else doesn't make you right. And AV's problems extended far beyond backup goalies and fringe players.

Everyone here is posting stuff they think is right. Of course I'm not any different.

The treatment of AV in the past couple seasons has been hilariously ridiculous. And again, as I've mentioned in other threads, I find the cases of Ballard and Schroeder to be the most ridiculous. The degree that people develop blatantly false narratives to excuse these guys and pin everything on Vigneault is mind-boggling.

I still can't believe we had a season where we won the President's Trophy during which half the team's fans were calling the coach garbage because he played the wrong #6 defender sometimes and didn't call enough timeouts.

Tell me - have you actually watched any Wolves games or are you just speaking out of general principle here on a situation you haven't actually seen firsthand?

Saw 6-8 games this year and some chunks of a few others. Certainly not as many as some here but enough to know what was going on.

Did he over-trust a couple veteran players? Maybe. But you'd be hard-pressed to find any coach, ever, that didn't have some guys he believed in over and above their current play, and any and every AHL coach we ever have is going to make decisions that people don't agree with.

The fact that he over-played a couple veterans or went with his obvious #1 goalie most nights down the stretch in a tight playoff chase doesn't make him a HORRIBLE COACH WHO DESTROYS PROSPECTS. Especially when you consider the very complicated politics between the Wolves and Canucks that he was caught in the middle of.

And again, the 3 guys who really 'nosedived' under Arniel (Rodin, Sauve, Connauton) were guys whose stock had already plummeted over the past couple years and who IMO were overplayed by MacTavish in an attempt to get something out of them.

 

[jigsaw99]

lol at NYR.

there goes their prospect's playing time

AV and now Arneil LOL

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Defaulting to 'it's not the coaches fault because all the players suck' is just as shortsighted as 'it's all the coaches fault, the players don't suck'.

Just because you yell louder than everyone else doesn't make you right. And AV's problems extended far beyond backup goalies and fringe players.

Tell me - have you actually watched any Wolves games or are you just speaking out of general principle here on a situation you haven't actually seen firsthand?

Pot meet kettle.

 

[Lard_Lad]

Foligno presumably taking over in Utica? He's more than experienced enough, the AHL assistant job was a bit of a step down for him.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Everyone here is posting stuff they think is right. Of course I'm not any different.

The treatment of AV in the past couple seasons has been hilariously ridiculous. And again, as I've mentioned in other threads, I find the cases of Ballard and Schroeder to be the most ridiculous. The degree that people develop blatantly false narratives to excuse these guys and pin everything on Vigneault is mind-boggling.

I still can't believe we had a season where we won the President's Trophy during which half the team's fans were calling the coach garbage because he played the wrong #6 defender sometimes and didn't call enough timeouts.

Yes, because we only criticized him for not utilizing Ballard properly.

You have willfully neglected near every other source of criticism to paint your own narrative that can essentially be summarized as "it's the players' fault." You chastised Luongo mercilessly, yet seemingly ignored a fair portion for his lackluster statistics, this season at least, fell to AV anointing Schneider the starter and refusing to pull Lu in games that became out of hand.

What of using Ebbett has a top six forward, often over Schroeder when the latter was clearly superior? Kassian was regulated to the fourth line for the most mundane mistake, despite Raymond and Bieksa being seen as near infallible. I need only say "powerplay" and that disaster ought to speak for itself.

AV was rightfully criticised for becoming predictable, poor utilization of talent and an obstinateness that saw him force players to adapt their game to his system instead of the reverse, when it was apparent that wouldn't work. How long did Daniel have to fail on the powerplay for AV to notice?

Nevertheless, no AV was not the singular reason for our lackluster performance. Too many players coasted and injuries were exterior issues a coach cannot control. However, that does not absolve him of a large portion of the blame for decisions rendered that frankly, were terrible.

 

[tantalum]

AV was/is a good coach. A great one even. But his time with this team was done. As with every coach that has coached before him and after, at some point no matter how good a coach you are you simply stop getting the best out of a group of players. For whatever reasons. It happens and it is time to move on.

Arniel. I don't think anyone has seen enough of him to know exactly if he is good or bad. He has a very good AHL record as coach so I imagine he can fit in as an assistant in the NHL. He struggled his first go round in the NHL...not unusual I'd guess and the organization he was with was an absolute mess from the GM down to the player who fancied himself a superstar at 60 point paces.

 

[carolinacanuck]

Wow, Scott Arniel pulls a Messier and leaves the organization after getting passed up for head coaching gig.

Bye, Scott.

 

[MS]

Yes, because we only criticized him for not utilizing Ballard properly.

You have willfully neglected near every other source of criticism to paint your own narrative that can essentially be summarized as "it's the players' fault." You chastised Luongo mercilessly, yet seemingly ignored a fair portion for his lackluster statistics, this season at least, fell to AV anointing Schneider the starter and refusing to pull Lu in games that became out of hand.

What of using Ebbett has a top six forward, often over Schroeder when the latter was clearly superior? Kassian was regulated to the fourth line for the most mundane mistake, despite Raymond and Bieksa being seen as near infallible. I need only say "powerplay" and that disaster ought to speak for itself.

AV was rightfully criticised for becoming predictable, poor utilization of talent and an obstinateness that saw him force players to adapt their game to his system instead of the reverse, when it was apparent that wouldn't work. How long did Daniel have to fail on the powerplay for AV to notice?

Nevertheless, no AV was not the singular reason for our lackluster performance. Too many players coasted and injuries were exterior issues a coach cannot control. However, that does not absolve him of a large portion of the blame for decisions rendered that frankly, were terrible.

I don't disagree that it was time for Vigneault to go. He didn't have his best season and his shelf life here was probably up, and a fresh voice will probably be a good thing.

That doesn't mean the criticisms of him weren't laughable. Basically a collection of whinges about dressing the wrong guys for fringe roster positions or not playing the right guy on the point of the #1 PP unit. Or not playing prospects enough, when he was forcing Schroeder into significant minutes despite Schroeder doing nothing.

And the thing is, every coach for every team will have things like this to criticize. No coach is going to do the message board consensus 100% of the time. Guys like Joel Quenneville and Randy Carlyle are (correctly) well thought-of by this fanbase, but go read what fans of their teams have to say, and it's a similar collection of pisses and moans about minor nothing issues.

The funnier thing yet is that the ACTUAL issues with Vigneault's coaching that held us back, in particular our lousy team discipline, were rarely mentioned by the group of fans laying an egg about Rome over Ballard.

As for your specific claims, as usual for Vigneault criticisms, the narrative doesn't match with the facts :

- Kassian on the 4th line. He played less than 11 minutes in a game 5 times all season. He was basically a fixture in our top-9, despite absolutely awful production relative to his minutes over his final 30 games of the season. Again, what do fans expect? He had 2 goals in his final 36 games this year. In about 20 of those he played more than 13 minutes, and scored 1 goal in those games. There's no way a winning team can justify continuing to throw icetime at a player like this. At some point the player has to step up and deliver.

- likewise Ebbett was rarely used as a top-6 forward, and rarely played over Schroeder. Ebbett saw more icetime than Schroeder in a game exactly 4 times this season, which is an interesting definition of 'often'. And again, Schroeder was an offensive black hole for the most part, something most fans here don't want to admit, and was absolutely not 'clearly superior' to Ebbett. Both were crap, and the decision to play one or the other was completely inconsequential - similar smallish unproductive centers.

- rookies getting a shorter leash than longtime veteran players? This is noteworthy? This is the case for every coach in every sport, ever. Players earn trust over time.

- the PP. Yeah, it sucked. It was also 4th, 1st, and 4th over the previous 3 seasons, and was run by Newell Brown. When things aren't working, you try different stuff. I hated Sedin on the point, too. But it was a function of having a complete lack of a decent puck-moving point man. Try putting some skill back there and see if it helps open spaces up.

AV was/is a good coach. A great one even. But his time with this team was done. As with every coach that has coached before him and after, at some point no matter how good a coach you are you simply stop getting the best out of a group of players. For whatever reasons. It happens and it is time to move on.

Arniel. I don't think anyone has seen enough of him to know exactly if he is good or bad. He has a very good AHL record as coach so I imagine he can fit in as an assistant in the NHL. He struggled his first go round in the NHL...not unusual I'd guess and the organization he was with was an absolute mess from the GM down to the player who fancied himself a superstar at 60 point paces.

Arniel's biggest problem in Columbus was that he was tied to an absolute dog of a starting goalie in Steve Mason that the organization had given a massive contract to after one fluke season. With the goaltending he had, winning was impossible - the guy was the worst #1 netminder in the NHL, and it wasn't like they had Schneider-esque backups as alternative options.

He maybe could have handled his goaltending better, but he was really behind the 8-ball from the get-go.

 

[Free Edler]

Wow, Scott Arniel pulls a Messier and leaves the organization after getting passed up for head coaching gig.

Bye, Scott.

Looks like he left because he was offered a promotion.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Looks like he left because he was offered a promotion.

Messier took a demotion to drive a zamboni at an ice center.

 

[Canucks LB]

 

[tantalum]

Arniel's biggest problem in Columbus was that he was tied to an absolute dog of a starting goalie in Steve Mason that the organization had given a massive contract to after one fluke season. With the goaltending he had, winning was impossible - the guy was the worst #1 netminder in the NHL, and it wasn't like they had Schneider-esque backups as alternative options.

He maybe could have handled his goaltending better, but he was really behind the 8-ball from the get-go.

No exaggeration on your part. Mason was the worst starter in the NHL. Why? because he was quite literally SCARED to get hit by the puck. This stemmed from the fact he was using the same equipment as he did when he was 15 or something stupid. It didn't have the proper protection. It is something that I wonder if he'll ever get over. At this point it's doubtful.

 

[Angry Little Elf]

Feels like Arneil reached his so called shelf life down there like AV.

Seems like at the tail end of every coach's tenure with his respective team, they start to make baffling line/pairing decisions.

I feel like they get cocky

 

[denkiteki]

Arniel's handling of the goalie situation down in Chicago was kind of bizarre, but agree that the criticisms of him may be overblown here.

Not only that, the fact he also missed the playoffs in the AHL due to riding the vets (some of which outplayed by a couple of our prospects) instead of playing whoever was playing better probably increased the number of criticisms he got. More so since this is a 'nuck forum and everyone would rather lose with our prospects than players that have nothing to do with the organization at all (i.e. all the "vets" he was overplaying).

Not to mention playing your starter until he keeps getting hurt shows he doesn't know how to manage his players... more so when clearly the backup showed he was fairly capable of handling some work when given the chance (due to injury from overworking in the first place...).

That said, a couple of our prospects did develop a bit from him but compared to McT (and you can't avoid comparing the 2 given they were right after each other), he was a pretty bad coach.

 

[cbjgirl]

Arniel's biggest problem in Columbus was that he was tied to an absolute dog of a starting goalie in Steve Mason that the organization had given a massive contract to after one fluke season. With the goaltending he had, winning was impossible - the guy was the worst #1 netminder in the NHL, and it wasn't like they had Schneider-esque backups as alternative options.

He maybe could have handled his goaltending better, but he was really behind the 8-ball from the get-go.

One of Arniel's problems in Columbus was the fact that he sucked any and all enjoyment the guys got out of playing hockey. Rumors were the guys hated coming to the rink everyday because they had to deal with him. I think that as the season started and the results weren't there, Arniel started yelling more and more. The worse if got, the more antagonistic he became.

When you have players like Brassard (whose play seems to be highly linked with his emotional state), once they've lost the "joy" of the game (that Claude Noel preaches), they just aren't going to perform to the best of their abilities.

I know that my first reaction when I saw the news was to laugh. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Brassard, Nash, and Dorsett found out (Moore was mostly in the AHL at the time).

 

[vancityluongo]

One of Arniel's problems in Columbus was the fact that he sucked any and all enjoyment the guys got out of playing hockey. Rumors were the guys hated coming to the rink everyday because they had to deal with him. I think that as the season started and the results weren't there, Arniel started yelling more and more. The worse if got, the more antagonistic he became.

Jesus. A Torts/Arniel duo might've made Alex Edler internally combust then.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

The revisionist history here is laughable. He played as the #4 center for 6 games when Kesler briefly came back from an injury before immediately getting hurt again. That was also the same 6-game stretch when he was tried on the point on the PP in an attempt to get him more icetime and utilize his skills in offensive situations.

For the vast majority of the season, Schroeder was being played 14-15 minutes of top-6/9 icetime with good wingers, and playing forward on the #2 unit PP. And doing nothing. But nobody seems to remember that, or choose not to, because it doesn't fit their narrative.

And, uh, maybe he played better in the AHL to close out the season because the pace seemed slower after spending the bulk of the year in the AHL? I think he himself even said as much.

I think that the fans' fixation on "line numbers" is by far the most annoying part of modern fandom. We have the data to look at how many minutes a player played, and in what situations -- that is far more relevant than referring to a "3rd line" or a "4th line" like it has any real-world relevance, particularly with a coach who juggled his lines as often as AV did.

Jordan Schroeder averaged 13:43 minutes of ice time per game. Period. He was over 15 minutes in nine of his games and under 10 in only three of them. That is very solid ice time for a rookie with AHL numbers that are as mediocre as Schroeder's are. He played on the powerplay far more than most players with his AHL track record would on a contending NHL team. The idea that he didn't get a chance is more than just silly -- it is indefensibly insane.

Fans need to get over their pigeon-holing of "3rd line" vs "4th line" and so forth like it has any meaning whatsoever outside of its ease of visualizing roster construction in a message board discussion.

 

[MS]

I think that the fans' fixation on "line numbers" is by far the most annoying part of modern fandom. We have the data to look at how many minutes a player played, and in what situations -- that is far more relevant than referring to a "3rd line" or a "4th line" like it has any real-world relevance, particularly with a coach who juggled his lines as often as AV did.

Jordan Schroeder averaged 13:43 minutes of ice time per game. Period. He was over 15 minutes in nine of his games and under 10 in only three of them. That is very solid ice time for a rookie with AHL numbers that are as mediocre as Schroeder's are. He played on the powerplay far more than most players with his AHL track record would on a contending NHL team. The idea that he didn't get a chance is more than just silly -- it is indefensibly insane.

Fans need to get over their pigeon-holing of "3rd line" vs "4th line" and so forth like it has any meaning whatsoever outside of its ease of visualizing roster construction in a message board discussion.

Yup.

There are so many narratives here right now that are treated as 'fact' but not backed up by any actual evidence and are in fact just blatantly false when you take a second to look at them or think about them.

In this particular case, the common perception of Vigneault's treatment of young players is so separated from reality, it's almost unbelievable.