Salary Cap: Salary Cap Thread - The Dog Days of August

[Scandale du Jour]

Last few posts:

Worked out for us when Rutherford had a bunch of guys to sit around in meetings.

I mean... "too many cooks" is a thing but I'd rather err towards a multitude of opinions and POVs over one octogenarian tyrant.

So who else doesn't give a shit about jersey ads? lol.

Apropos of nothing, whoever buys ad space on our jerseys won't be getting my business.

I utterly despise this hellscape of endless advertising.

I think it's pretty unfortunate, myself.

CONSUME

You guys realize the whole point of professional sports team is advertisement though?

Listen you'd better just put on these sunglasses and get with the program or risk a protracted alleyway fight with me for the next like 30 minutes of film runtime.

I'm really good at cowering in a ball.

Alright for some eh.

Although yeah, this is something I'm thinking looking at this. He's gonna be very busy the next few months at a guess, but after that, what's he doing? Updating the cap sheet and six hours of solitaire on the computer? I daresay they'll dream up other things for him, maybe he calculations on how much pending free agents should get through the year, but still...

As I said. Sit in meetings that are pointless. That is what everyone at that level does at every company.

I'd guess that 70% of the people vowing to never spend a dime on a jersey again are the same ones that buy horrible knockoffs for $50 from REELHOCKEYJERZEES.EU

I guess I never really got collecting jerseys. It always seemed weird wearing someone else's number/name. Plus my god are they expensive. My friend won a pretty nice Malkin Winter Classic baby blue and gave it to me and I framed it and put it in my studio. Aside from that, a hat and a 1993 Starter "Patrick Division Champs" cursed tee shirt I actually don't own any Pens merch.

Depends on the size/placement/quantity.

There's a HUGE difference between what the NBA currently has - a simple "Bumble" or "Wish" in the corner of the jersey vs the atrocious Euro hockey jerseys. Like if the Iron City "IC" logo was on a Pens jersey no one would give a shit.

Somebody needs to make an app that superimposes whatever jersey you want on your team… lol sports franchises would despise it

Normally I'd agree, but when it comes to hockey ops it seems that the more chefs the more the soup sticks to the recipe. There are more people to see if one of the chefs try to add some poop in it and stop him in time.

I hate advertising so I'm never going to buy this form of advertisement again because of advertisement.

I think the reality is more so that the GM just wants to focus on the on ice product and Burke just wants to be the face. Smart moves tbh.

Burke is there to make the organization run. Hextall is there to make the organization win.

Yeah I'm good with hiring guys which specialize in certain tasks, and a numbers guy is highly needed.

Oh I agree. In this case it's a good thing.

JR cutting out all this staff was simply to consolidate power and that's never good.

Plain and simple, they get Euro bad I'll be contemplating stop watching period. I will not be buying any Jersey's. I've done it before and I'll do it again. Robo Pigeon crest revolt.

Continue!

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[Peat]

As I said. Sit in meetings that are pointless. That is what everyone at that level does at every company.

Hah! I guess. I dunno, maybe being naive, but it feels like keeping on top of everything the org needs to know about hockey to run a good team is enough of a full time job that nobody wants meaningless meetings, including the people who'd call them... except the numbers guy.



Btw, on who used to be the numbers guy:

"Sam Ventura will assume the role of director of hockey operations and hockey research, working closely with Allvin on the salary cap, CBA and the overall hockey operations' budget." - Penguins Promote Patrik Allvin to Assistant General Manager (nhl.com)

So we did have a Director of Hockey Operations post-Botterill, and since he only left for Buffalo recently, whatshisface the new guy is being brought in to replace him. Except he just does hockey operations, not hockey research. Idly wonder why Sam made that move - he's a Vice President over there vs being a Director but that feels like meaningless toe kissing, did he get more money or did Ron gently suggest he wasn't a huge fan of his work?

 

[Gurglesons]

Hah! I guess. I dunno, maybe being naive, but it feels like keeping on top of everything the org needs to know about hockey to run a good team is enough of a full time job that nobody wants meaningless meetings, including the people who'd call them... except the numbers guy.



Btw, on who used to be the numbers guy:

"Sam Ventura will assume the role of director of hockey operations and hockey research, working closely with Allvin on the salary cap, CBA and the overall hockey operations' budget." - Penguins Promote Patrik Allvin to Assistant General Manager (nhl.com)

So we did have a Director of Hockey Operations post-Botterill, and since he only left for Buffalo recently, whatshisface the new guy is being brought in to replace him. Except he just does hockey operations, not hockey research. Idly wonder why Sam made that move - he's a Vice President over there vs being a Director but that feels like meaningless toe kissing, did he get more money or did Ron gently suggest he wasn't a huge fan of his work?

Jesse spoke to Ventura leaving and said it was basically an offer he couldn't refuse and the Penguins did try to retain him on a podcast I listened to a few weeks. So makes sense.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Jesse spoke to Ventura leaving and said it was basically an offer he couldn't refuse and the Penguins did try to retain him on a podcast I listened to a few weeks. So makes sense.

He can go pitch Mark Jankowski's multi year extension there and f*** off.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Death to analytics nerds.

/BiffTannen

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Hah! I guess. I dunno, maybe being naive, but it feels like keeping on top of everything the org needs to know about hockey to run a good team is enough of a full time job that nobody wants meaningless meetings, including the people who'd call them... except the numbers guy.



Btw, on who used to be the numbers guy:

"Sam Ventura will assume the role of director of hockey operations and hockey research, working closely with Allvin on the salary cap, CBA and the overall hockey operations' budget." - Penguins Promote Patrik Allvin to Assistant General Manager (nhl.com)

So we did have a Director of Hockey Operations post-Botterill, and since he only left for Buffalo recently, whatshisface the new guy is being brought in to replace him. Except he just does hockey operations, not hockey research. Idly wonder why Sam made that move - he's a Vice President over there vs being a Director but that feels like meaningless toe kissing, did he get more money or did Ron gently suggest he wasn't a huge fan of his work?

I trust the blokes Ron hires over that tit.

Ron has a history of doing well in the development and scouting realm and it's what I'm a fan of his for. His work with the Kings and Flyers.

I'd let Ron sort our shit out for at least 5yrs minimum.

 

[Pens x]

I trust the blokes Ron hires over that tit.

Ron has a history of doing well in the development and scouting realm and it's what I'm a fan of his for. His work with the Kings and Flyers.

I'd let Ron sort our shit out for at least 5yrs minimum.

We’ve wasted the last 4 years with crap coaching and poor management. What’s another 5 years?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Caring as much about analytics as some people (nobody specifically) do is like playing fantasy sports without any benefit of money or bragging rights. It's just tedium.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Caring as much about analytics as some people (nobody specifically) do is like playing fantasy sports without any benefit of money or bragging rights. It's just tedium.

Let us never forget the Analytics angle that Sully & Sarge provided in their argument for signing Jack Johnson.

It has its place, but with a shit ton of eye-test as the main meal with analytics as the side. I swear some of these teams hire, watched Moneyball like 3-4 times and figure yeah I can do this! Let me read CapFriendly, some JFresh shit, etc.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Let us never forget the Analytics angle that Sully & Sarge provided in their argument for signing Jack Johnson.

It has its place, but with a shit ton of eye-test as the main meal with analytics as the side. I swear some of these teams hire, watched Moneyball like 3-4 times and figure yeah I can do this! Let me read CapFriendly, some JFresh shit, etc.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It sounds super pretentious but by my estimation the most sure-fire way to understand all the angles of what is going on out there and how to assess both the game and players comes down to simply watching a hell of a lot of hockey. And even then...

That said I don't have a huge problem with analytics as they are simply more data. I have a problem with how people use it sometimes. Or even massage it.

 

[Gurglesons]

It sounds super pretentious but by my estimation the most sure-fire way to understand all the angles of what is going on out there and how to assess both the game and players comes down to simply watching a hell of a lot of hockey. And even then...

That said I don't have a huge problem with analytics as they are simply more data. I have a problem with how people use it sometimes. Or even massage it.

I imagine the analytic nerds watch more hockey than most on here.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I imagine the analytic nerds what more hockey than most on here.

I mean... I sure hope so.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I mean... I sure hope so.

I mean making a case for JJ makes you wonder though doesn't it?

Because 100% of the hockey community, including analytic nerds etc said JJ sucked. But Gonch and Sully were like hold my beer...

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean making a case for JJ makes you wonder though doesn't it?

Because 100% of the hockey community, including analytic nerds etc said JJ sucked. But Gonch and Sully were like hold my beer...

Narratives and a want to justify them exist everywhere, IMO. Even in the highest offices of this league.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

@Peat If you have a very productive winger who fills a niche that you have no intention of adequately replacing, it's a mistake to trade that player.

The reason trading Neal worked is because JR acquired another highly skilled winger. Hornqvist alone didn't make the Pens a better team - that trade made them worse in '14-'15. This organization would do well to remember that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

BlindWilly is about to incur the wrath of the heatmap and acronym cultists.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

BlindWilly is about to incur the wrath of the heatmap and acronym cultists.

I ain't scurred.

But nah I'm not really calling them worthless or stupid or whatever. Just not like... THE thing. I'm sure most analytic guys actually agree with me. I think most of them for sure come from a place of honesty. I just dunno for sure if we are THERE yet, ya know?

 

[ChaosAgent]

On analytics: maybe no one cared but still no one has been able to refute my ProFootballFocus comparison. They think using eye test and grading each player on each play with a panel - basically brute-forcing eye test but with a lot of data points to minimize confirmation bias & outcome bias - was a better way to evaluate players.

I agree. Grab a panel, evaluate player by player, shift by shift. Average it out at the end. Voila. You now have a lot of data points with actual human judgment involved.

PFF Player Grades | PFF

 

[Peat]

I ain't scurred.

But nah I'm not really calling them worthless or stupid or whatever. Just not like... THE thing. I'm sure most analytic guys actually agree with me. I think most of them for sure come from a place of honesty. I just dunno for sure if we are THERE yet, ya know?

Insofar as I've noticed most will admit when their methods indicate unlikely results and there is a constant push for greater understanding.

But also most of them are fairly short at times with people who want to keep talking about the distance from perfection, rather than the distance from where hockey stats were not that long ago and how much insight they can provide, largely because it's chiefly the province of people who wish to discredit analytics either because they disagree with the narratives pushed by "traditional" hockey men such as entertaining but accident prone players being great/more toughness, or because they hate the idea of their fun violent sport being reduced to something that can be viewed through dull numbers, not people actually searching for the truth.

In which they're right.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If you're not getting paid to care about analytics and deep dive into it, stop caring about it, imo. Pretending to glean some kind of insight or uncover hidden truths about players with all that crap is tedious, boring, and doesn't mean a f***ing thing to the average fan.

Congrats, you care way too much about the sport. Just watch it and have fun, don't pretend you're some numerologist wielding mystical knowledge because you read somewhere that ZAR is the best defensive forward in the world and that makes him super important to the 4th line, or that McCann's [insert acronym] score puts him in the same class as Barkov, Pasta, Draistaitl, and Marchand.

It's pretentious for anyone not doing it for a living--and even then, it's sometimes pretty f***ing pretentious.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Narratives and a want to justify them exist everywhere, IMO. Even in the highest offices of this league.

I get a lot of blokes here want to blame Rutherford for like 100% of the bad things that went on, but I put it at 50/50 with JR and Sully. One had an itchy trigger finger, the other liked a certain type and both are hard headed with their ways.

I'm still not over the way this team has miscast several players.

 

[ChaosAgent]

If you're not getting paid to care about analytics and deep dive into it, stop caring about it, imo. Pretending to glean some kind of insight or uncover hidden truths about players with all that crap is tedious, boring, and doesn't mean a f***ing thing to the average fan.

Congrats, you care way too much about the sport. Just watch it and have fun, don't pretend you're some numerologist wielding mystical knowledge because you read somewhere that ZAR is the best defensive forward in the world and that makes him super important to the 4th line, or that McCann's [insert acronym] score puts him in the same class as Barkov, Pasta, Draistaitl, and Marchand.

It's pretentious for anyone not doing it for a living--and even then, it's sometimes pretty f***ing pretentious.

Ya know what else coulda told you that ZAR was good defensively? +/-. Which is apparently the noobiest/dumbest statistic of all even though most modern ones are just "+/- with granularity and in comparison to other stuff."

 

[Honour Over Glory]

@Peat If you have a very productive winger who fills a niche that you have no intention of adequately replacing, it's a mistake to trade that player.

The reason trading Neal worked is because JR acquired another highly skilled winger. Hornqvist alone didn't make the Pens a better team - that trade made them worse in '14-'15. This organization would do well to remember that.

Neal's issue was the way he played, not his talent. Neal put up points, but that's all he did in addition to taking dumb ass penalties at awful times and being incredibly inconsistent with the physical side of the game - Literally why Dallas traded him because they found that type in Jamie Benn and seeing Neal as expendable (including drafting very well with wingers). He also left a lot to be desired defensively, he wasn't good like Malone in that sense.

Hornqvist wasn't an upgrade production wise, but he was a massive upgrade on effort level. Horny never (if ever) took nights off. He played games like they were Game 7's, was a menace in front of the crease more often than not and when he was utilized correctly on the powerplay, was a treat to watch in that crease area. Horny was like the right blend of Ryan Malone/James Neal for this team.

As much as I hate to even use this quote, it was about "playing the right way."

 

[ChaosAgent]

Neal's issue was the way he played, not his talent. Neal put up points, but that's all he did in addition to taking dumb ass penalties at awful times and being incredibly inconsistent with the physical side of the game - Literally why Dallas traded him because they found that type in Jamie Benn and seeing Neal as expendable (including drafting very well with wingers). He also left a lot to be desired defensively, he wasn't good like Malone in that sense.

Hornqvist wasn't an upgrade production wise, but he was a massive upgrade on effort level. Horny never (if ever) took nights off. He played games like they were Game 7's, was a menace in front of the crease more often than not and when he was utilized correctly on the powerplay, was a treat to watch in that crease area. Horny was like the right blend of Ryan Malone/James Neal for this team.

As much as I hate to even use this quote, it was about "playing the right way."

Quick quibble on Neal. It was a 2-for-1 on Goligoski for Neal & Nisky. Generally when a trade is 2-for-1 it's about the 1 (Goligoski) and not the 2. Though Niskanen probably has had the best career - this would be a fun debate.