Salary Cap: Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part VIII | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[Empoleon8771]

I'm fine with using HBK, and throwing those guys out w/ Sid/Geno, too. Why not have the best of everything? And I don't know, Emp. I think that chemistry and how they compliment one another is special. If they came out next year doing the same thing, don't change it. Don't change it until teams figure out how to stop that depth.

It all depends. Are we going to be able to give Sid and Geno good enough top-6 wingers with HBK together? If we can do something like Kunitz for B Pouliot, sign Hudler and run with Pouliot-Crosby-Hornqvist and Hudler-Malkin-Rust, then yeah, keep HBK together. I just don't think we'll be able to do that realistically.

 

[Son Goku]

With Sprong done I can see us getting a one year stop gap

 

[ColePens]

It all depends. Are we going to be able to give Sid and Geno good enough top-6 wingers with HBK together? If we can do something like Kunitz for B Pouliot, sign Hudler and run with Pouliot-Crosby-Hornqvist and Hudler-Malkin-Rust, then yeah, keep HBK together. I just don't think we'll be able to do that realistically.

Let's enjoy the Cup and see how this plays out. That's the beauty of this summer. I am putting full faith in JR and Sully. Let them figure it out and i'll enjoy the ride.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The only reason that HBK produced more than HMK (and the difference at ES was marginal, it was like 1.08 GPG and 2.2 PPG for HMK and 1.13 GPG and 2.4 PPG for HBK) was because of the 5 point night that the HBK line had against Detroit. HMK would almost definitely be more productive than HBK over a full season.

Even if it were...who cares?

HBK are better than the sum of their parts. Hearing them talk, they're clearly ecstatic to be playing together and have some special chemistry.

We won the Cup on the back of being able to roll 3 scoring lines that teams had no answers for. We have the means to open up more cap room to acquire another legit scoring winger by getting rid of poorly allotted cap space. HMK would undeniably lead to a worse middle 6 on account of Bonino not being near the individual force that Malkin is. We have quality young wingers that need opportunity for advancement too.

It just doesn't make any sense to keep fixating on breaking up the line. It's totally unnecessary.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm a big believer in line chemistry. But there are things that easily trump that. Especially when the line chemistry of the alternate configuration isn't that far off. The assertion that somehow Bonino would outdo Malkin in a meaningful period of time between both should they have the same wingers is pretty laughable.

People can twist it around however they want. And it doesn't matter much because it worked. But HBK was a thing largely because Phil Kessel upped his game a few notches down the stretch and in the playoffs under a coach with some actual ideas and plans. You add a healthy Malkin to that in any configuration and they'd break the scoreboard. Malkin barely had time to settle in between Hagelin and Kessel and the team hadn't even really found it's legs yet under Sullivan and that combination still looked deadly every time they were on the ice.

I sincerely hope the team isn't thinking along the same lines many of you are. They don't have the assets to build three true scoring lines for an entire season (no NHL team does) and Malkin and Crosby playing with cobbled together lines all year shouldn't be seen as any sort of option.

Obviously things change a bit should Malkin have to go under the knife. Which is probably what will happen.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

With Sprong done I can see us getting a one year stop gap

Seeing how our roster is pretty crowded already, and there is no way to assure that Sprong would get a spot to begin with, I wouldn't really call it a stop gap.

 

[Empoleon8771]

With Sprong done I can see us getting a one year stop gap

I'd actually be interested in Vrbata as a 1 year stopgap with Sprong being done for the year. I think Vrbata would work really well with Malkin or Bonino. Vrbata played a ton with Bonino in 2014-2015, he was Bonino's most common RWer and he put up 31 goals and 63 points.

 

[ColePens]

I'm a big believer in line chemistry. But there are things that easily trump that. Especially when the line chemistry of the alternate configuration isn't that far off. The assertion that somehow Bonino would outdo Malkin in a meaningful period of time between both should they have the same wingers is pretty laughable.

People can twist it around however they want. And it doesn't matter much because it worked. But HBK was a thing largely because Phil Kessel upped his game a few notches down the stretch and in the playoffs under a coach with some actual ideas and plans. You add a healthy Malkin to that in any configuration and they'd break the scoreboard. Malkin barely had time to settle in between Hagelin and Kessel and the team hadn't even really found it's legs yet under Sullivan and that combination still looked deadly every time they were on the ice.

I sincerely hope the team isn't thinking along the same lines many of you are. They don't have the assets to build three true scoring lines for an entire season (no NHL team does) and Malkin and Crosby playing with cobbled together lines all year shouldn't be seen as any sort of option.

Obviously things change a bit should Malkin have to go under the knife. Which is probably what will happen.

Here's HBK walking into the locker room and talking to Sully:

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Are people forgetting the reason to what made the HBK line so successful, was that we could run three balanced scoring lines, and take advantage out of specific defensive pairings because of this? If we run a HMK line, we wouldn't be able to accomplish this I believe.

 

[Penske]

The only reason that HBK produced more than HMK (and the difference at ES was marginal, it was like 1.08 GPG and 2.2 PPG for HMK and 1.13 GPG and 2.4 PPG for HBK) was because of the 5 point night that the HBK line had against Detroit. HMK would almost definitely be more productive than HBK over a full season.

That's not really the issue though. It's how much would the combined lines produce and I think it's better if HBK stays put. It's very difficult for teams to match up against us with Kessel, Malkin, Crosby on different lines as we saw in the playoffs.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yes. I enjoyed that movie, as well.

 

[billybudd]

I'm a big believer in line chemistry. But there are things that easily trump that. Especially when the line chemistry of the alternate configuration isn't that far off. The assertion that somehow Bonino would outdo Malkin in a meaningful period of time between both should they have the same wingers is pretty laughable.

That's not what anyone's saying. What they're saying is

(Malkin+Guy and Bonino+Kessel) > (Malkin+Kessel and Bonino+Guy)

Are people forgetting the reason to what made the HBK line so successful, was that we could run three balanced scoring lines, and take advantage out of specific defensive pairings because of this? If we run a HMK line, we wouldn't be able to accomplish this I believe.

^

 

[Wes C Addle]

Do we know who will be waiver exempt next year?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Do the Pens "need" to keep HBK together to run with 3 balanced scoring lines? I'm not saying just take Hagelin and Kessel away from Bonino, I'm saying give 1 of Hagelin, Hornqvist and Kessel to each of Crosby, Malkin and Bonino. If you want 3 balanced scoring lines, each line should get 1 of the 3 best wingers, right?

Personally, I think signing Vrbata for like $3 million AAV (not unrealistic considering how many wingers are available and his poor season last year), trading Kunitz for Pouliot and running with a forward group of:

Pouliot-Crosby-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Malkin-Vrbata
Rust-Bonino-Kessel
Kuhnhackl-Fehr-Sundqvist
Wilson-Sheary

Is the best possible solution. HMK doesn't necessarily need to be put back together, but I think HBK being broken up would cause the "3 balanced scoring lines" to work the best. That forward group with Letang, Maatta, Dumoulin, Daley, Pouliot, Cole and Murray costs $68 million, which give us plenty of space to finish the rest of the roster.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm a big believer in line chemistry. But there are things that easily trump that. Especially when the line chemistry of the alternate configuration isn't that far off. The assertion that somehow Bonino would outdo Malkin in a meaningful period of time between both should they have the same wingers is pretty laughable.

People can twist it around however they want. And it doesn't matter much because it worked. But HBK was a thing largely because Phil Kessel upped his game a few notches down the stretch and in the playoffs under a coach with some actual ideas and plans. You add a healthy Malkin to that in any configuration and they'd break the scoreboard. Malkin barely had time to settle in between Hagelin and Kessel and the team hadn't even really found it's legs yet under Sullivan and that combination still looked deadly every time they were on the ice.

I sincerely hope the team isn't thinking along the same lines many of you are. They don't have the assets to build three true scoring lines for an entire season (no NHL team does) and Malkin and Crosby playing with cobbled together lines all year shouldn't be seen as any sort of option.

Obviously things change a bit should Malkin have to go under the knife. Which is probably what will happen.

Sure they do. And Bonino's work in the playoffs speaks for itself - just rewatch how he scored his points. He was an integral part of why we scored.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That's not what anyone's saying. What they're saying is

(Malkin+Guy and Bonino+Kessel) > (Malkin+Kessel and Bonino+Guy)

That's fair.

What I'm saying is that running three scoring lines for 82 games is fantasy-land stuff. I'm more than thrilled that it worked out how it did. If we've learned anything I hope it's that we shouldn't sit on our hands and try to recreate "that old magic" every single season. I completely understand the appeal of matchup problems and balanced attacks but it just isn't viable over the long haul in this kind of league. IMO.

The team has a lot of options to try out next year in a scoring line role in order to attempt compensating for the third line having the two best wings on the team. But none of them are nearly proven enough or with enough pedigree for me to be very comfortable rolling with that as the lineup next season. And this talk about some mysterious scoring line LWer galloping in from FA to save the day is also unrealistic and probably unwise.

 

[froods]

Lol at the HBK conversation. Lets say that a HMK line would play better (not so sure about that). Is everybody forgetting about the difference between the left over lines? A Kunitz-Malkin-Rust line destroys a Kunitz-Bonino-Rust line.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I'm a big believer in line chemistry. But there are things that easily trump that. Especially when the line chemistry of the alternate configuration isn't that far off. The assertion that somehow Bonino would outdo Malkin in a meaningful period of time between both should they have the same wingers is pretty laughable.

People can twist it around however they want. And it doesn't matter much because it worked. But HBK was a thing largely because Phil Kessel upped his game a few notches down the stretch and in the playoffs under a coach with some actual ideas and plans. You add a healthy Malkin to that in any configuration and they'd break the scoreboard. Malkin barely had time to settle in between Hagelin and Kessel and the team hadn't even really found it's legs yet under Sullivan and that combination still looked deadly every time they were on the ice.

I sincerely hope the team isn't thinking along the same lines many of you are. They don't have the assets to build three true scoring lines for an entire season (no NHL team does) and Malkin and Crosby playing with cobbled together lines all year shouldn't be seen as any sort of option.

Obviously things change a bit should Malkin have to go under the knife. Which is probably what will happen.

You simply overlook one aspect that has serious implications to the matter.

Malkin and Kessel both thrive with them being the guys with the puck. It's really not even Kessel more so then Geno holding onto the puck for too long, making those reversing circles that pretty much totally kill guys with speed momentum.

Short take, Geno dangles and holds onto the puck too long.

Momentum killed when they are going north at mach 5 and he's going east/west/south.

Bonino knows he has to get those guys the puck and is really cerebral about when he does it.

I'm perfectly fine with HBK and doing the odd shift here and there with either Crosby or Malkin. Geno just wants to be the guy more that cancels that out a lot of the time.

People also haven't thought about HBK for an entire season. Using the sample sizes are not big enough either way, but you can't dismiss the two top dogs want/need the puck more to be successful.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's fair.

What I'm saying is that running three scoring lines for 82 games is fantasy-land stuff. I'm more than thrilled that it worked out how it did. If we've learned anything I hope it's that we shouldn't sit on our hands and try to recreate "that old magic" every single season. I completely understand the appeal of matchup problems and balanced attacks but it just isn't viable over the long haul in this kind of league. IMO.

The team has a lot of options to try out next year in a scoring line role in order to attempt compensating for the third line having the two best wings on the team. But none of them are nearly proven enough or with enough pedigree for me to be very comfortable rolling with that as the lineup next season. And this talk about some mysterious scoring line LWer galloping in from FA to save the day is also unrealistic and probably unwise.

It's worked for about 60 games. It may not work forever, but what exactly is the argument for breaking it up while it's still working like a well-oiled machine?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I think it's Malkin and Kessel wanting to do different things with the puck rather than both wanting the puck, tbh.

 

[ColePens]

Another thread bites the dust!