Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
For some reason I am only able to see the Pts/G comparisons in the attached image. I cannot view the goals or assists analysis. Is anyone else having this problem?
A point to consider is 94-02 for Sakic was later on in his career comparatively to Yzerman at 86-94.
Sakic had already played in the NHL since 88-89. Yzerman had his first season in 83-84. Yzermans prime begins after he had 2 full seasons under his belt, Sakics after he had 5.
For each of the 8 year periods you listed, both players missed significant time in 3 of those seasons (10+ games) so I dont think injuries are skewing the perception at all. However, for Sakic you're missing four of his hundred point seasons while for Yzerman you're hitting every single one. Sakic is so high up on the career numbers category and in his place in history because his offensive game lasted for so long. You could arguably go from 89-07 as his offensive prime.
Sakic had already played in the NHL since 88-89. Yzerman had his first season in 83-84. Yzermans prime begins after he had 2 full seasons under his belt, Sakics after he had 5.
For each of the 8 year periods you listed, both players missed significant time in 3 of those seasons (10+ games) so I dont think injuries are skewing the perception at all. However, for Sakic you're missing four of his hundred point seasons while for Yzerman you're hitting every single one. Sakic is so high up on the career numbers category and in his place in history because his offensive game lasted for so long. You could arguably go from 89-07 as his offensive prime.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Someone should just merge this thread with my original one, that way this becomes a part of that discussion, which is what it really is.
I just read yours and I read mine again. I'm biased, but I gotta say I'm much more convinced by what I wrote.
I'm sure I'll be back at some point during my travels to address this, but in the meantime, A couple notes:
- Yzerman had better competion? You just summed up the actual HHOFers, surefire HHOFers and potential HHOFers for each period. The total is 13-12. Two of those for the Yzerman period are the Freaks, Mario and Wayne, who were already removed for the benefit of the analysis of both players, particularly Yzerman. Any discussion regarding dominance on the HOH board should also be pertaining to a player's dominance of his own peers. I see no reason to believe Sakic's pool of competition was discernably worse after Wayne and Mario are removed from Yzerman's.
- Yzerman had Fedorov. You don't think that helped as much as having Forsberg helped Sakic? Same value as players. Forsberg was better but was injured more often; it washes out to the same delivered value. Both huge in the playoffs. Both provided a secondary option.
- Linemates: I'm pretty sure Yzerman and Sakic both fall into the category of "players who got the points no matter who was on their line" that Dark Shadows loves to talk about. I'll leave that one to him. Both players had four years on bad teams. Bad team Sakic outperformed bad team Yzerman.
- Jagr would have finished ahead of Yzerman too, so what is the point of pointing out Sakic was only 2nd in points during his prime?
I just read yours and I read mine again. I'm biased, but I gotta say I'm much more convinced by what I wrote.
I'm sure I'll be back at some point during my travels to address this, but in the meantime, A couple notes:
- Yzerman had better competion? You just summed up the actual HHOFers, surefire HHOFers and potential HHOFers for each period. The total is 13-12. Two of those for the Yzerman period are the Freaks, Mario and Wayne, who were already removed for the benefit of the analysis of both players, particularly Yzerman. Any discussion regarding dominance on the HOH board should also be pertaining to a player's dominance of his own peers. I see no reason to believe Sakic's pool of competition was discernably worse after Wayne and Mario are removed from Yzerman's.
- Yzerman had Fedorov. You don't think that helped as much as having Forsberg helped Sakic? Same value as players. Forsberg was better but was injured more often; it washes out to the same delivered value. Both huge in the playoffs. Both provided a secondary option.
- Linemates: I'm pretty sure Yzerman and Sakic both fall into the category of "players who got the points no matter who was on their line" that Dark Shadows loves to talk about. I'll leave that one to him. Both players had four years on bad teams. Bad team Sakic outperformed bad team Yzerman.
- Jagr would have finished ahead of Yzerman too, so what is the point of pointing out Sakic was only 2nd in points during his prime?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Yeah, I think he just forgot to attach the pictures.
He should probably just post a link to a hockey-reference.com powerplay search. It would be easier.
Very good point.
Sakic FTW.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
That's really laughable that you would call this even. Sakic was selected to play more often, played more games, played bigger roles, and scored 109% more points in 36% more games, for 53% more points per game in best-on-best tournaments. Yzerman's edge in other tournaments is similar to Sakic's edge in BOB, but the BOB tourneys are far more important.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
I agree with the last part of this. If you're only going to give Sakic those 8 years then how could his non-prime offense only be a win by slight margin?
I also do not agree with the International section...
The arguments for Sakic are he plays for his country more times in best on bests, has a PPG average .27 higher than Yzerman, and gets named Tournament MVP in Canada's Gold Medal Olympics.
This is called a draw because Yzerman "played well" also, and in 02' he played wing on the first line with Lemieux and scored a crucial goal???
I don't know why the attached charts aren't appearing. I took a lot of time inserting several web queries from hockeyreference to Excel, transferring them to Word, and then finally as a JPG image after I found out I couldn't just copy or insert the chart here. Anyway, here it is; I know it looks significantly more confusing when comparing...my apologies.
GOALS:
1986-94
Rk Player GP G G/G G/G Rank
1 Brett Hull 540 413 0.76 2
2 Mario Lemieux 447 403 0.90 1
3 Luc Robitaille 640 392 0.61 6
4 Steve Yzerman 604 386 0.64 4
5 Mike Gartner 626 335 0.54 10
6 Pat LaFontaine 540 329 0.61 5
7 Wayne Gretzky 572 322 0.56 7
8 Dave Andreychuk 612 307 0.50 14
9 Dino Ciccarelli 583 306 0.52 12
10 Joe Mullen 596 304 0.51 13
11 Joe Nieuwendyk 531 293 0.55 8
12 Pat Verbeek 628 292 0.46 26
13 Cam Neely 434 291 0.67 3
14 Brian Bellows 601 282 0.47 18
15 Stephane Richer 579 280 0.48 17
1994-02
Rk Player GP G G/G G/G Rank
1 Jaromir Jagr 564 345 0.61 1
2 Peter Bondra 554 320 0.58 3
3 Teemu Selanne 584 307 0.53 7
4 Keith Tkachuk 541 295 0.55 5
5 John LeClair 548 293 0.53 6
6 Brendan Shanahan 595 279 0.47 12
7 Paul Kariya 524 275 0.52 8
8 Joe Sakic 555 268 0.48 10
9 Tony Amonte 620 267 0.43 16
10 Brett Hull 561 266 0.47 11
11 Ziggy Palffy 526 265 0.5 9
12 Pavel Bure 439 264 0.6 2
13 Mats Sundin 606 262 0.43 17
14 Mike Modano 553 243 0.44 14
15 Eric Lindros 432 242 0.56 4
ASSISTS:
1986-94
Rk Player GP A A/G A/G Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 572 799 1.4 1
2 Mario Lemieux 447 567 1.27 2
3 Adam Oates 590 559 0.95 3
4 Doug Gilmour 624 540 0.87 6
5 Mark Messier 588 537 0.91 5
6 Paul Coffey 560 524 0.94 4
7 Steve Yzerman 604 518 0.86 8
8 Raymond Bourque 598 511 0.85 9
9 Dale Hawerchuk 633 504 0.8 10
10 Ron Francis 621 469 0.76 13
11 Al MacInnis 592 463 0.78 12
12 Larry Murphy 633 413 0.65 23
13 Luc Robitaille 640 411 0.64 25
14 Bernie Nicholls 554 398 0.72 16
15 Phil Housley 562 397 0.71 17
1994-02
Rk Player GP A A/G A/G Rank
1 Jaromir Jagr 564 494 0.88 2
2 Adam Oates 582 457 0.79 3
3 Ron Francis 605 446 0.74 5
4 Joe Sakic 555 425 0.77 4
5 Peter Forsberg 466 411 0.88 1
6 Doug Weight 552 398 0.72 7
7 Mark Recchi 597 362 0.61 12
8 Teemu Selanne 584 362 0.62 10
9 Brian Leetch 584 357 0.61 11
10 Theoren Fleury 589 353 0.6 13
11 Nicklas Lidstrom 605 352 0.58 19
12 Steve Yzerman 547 351 0.64 9
13 Mats Sundin 606 346 0.57 23
14 Pierre Turgeon 531 344 0.65 8
15 Vincent Damphousse 572 335 0.59 16
POINTS:
1986-94
Rk Player GP PTS PTS/G PTS/G Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 572 1121 1.96 2
2 Mario Lemieux 447 970 2.17 1
3 Steve Yzerman 604 904 1.5 3
4 Luc Robitaille 640 803 1.25 8
5 Mark Messier 588 787 1.34 4
6 Doug Gilmour 624 773 1.24 9
7 Dale Hawerchuk 633 767 1.21 13
8 Adam Oates 590 749 1.27 7
9 Brett Hull 540 700 1.3 5
10 Pat LaFontaine 540 699 1.29 6
11 Ron Francis 621 680 1.1 22
12 Paul Coffey 560 676 1.21 12
13 Ray Bourque 598 669 1.12 21
14 Steve Larmer 632 655 1.04 30
15 Bernie Nicholls 554 649 1.17 14
1994-02
Rk Player GP PTS PTS/G PTS/G Rank
1 Jaromir Jagr 564 839 1.49 1
2 Joe Sakic 555 693 1.25 3
3 Teemu Selanne 584 669 1.15 5
4 Ron Francis 605 622 1.03 12
5 Mats Sundin 606 608 1 16
6 Theoren Fleury 589 593 1.01 14
7 Paul Kariya 524 588 1.12 6
8 Adam Oates 582 588 1.01 15
9 Peter Forsberg 466 580 1.24 4
10 Mike Modano 553 575 1.04 10
11 Keith Tkachuk 541 566 1.05 8
12 John LeClair 548 565 1.03 13
13 Mark Recchi 597 565 0.95 23
14 Eric Lindros 432 560 1.3 2
15 Pierre Turgeon 531 556 1.05 9
GOALS:
1986-94
Rk Player GP G G/G G/G Rank
1 Brett Hull 540 413 0.76 2
2 Mario Lemieux 447 403 0.90 1
3 Luc Robitaille 640 392 0.61 6
4 Steve Yzerman 604 386 0.64 4
5 Mike Gartner 626 335 0.54 10
6 Pat LaFontaine 540 329 0.61 5
7 Wayne Gretzky 572 322 0.56 7
8 Dave Andreychuk 612 307 0.50 14
9 Dino Ciccarelli 583 306 0.52 12
10 Joe Mullen 596 304 0.51 13
11 Joe Nieuwendyk 531 293 0.55 8
12 Pat Verbeek 628 292 0.46 26
13 Cam Neely 434 291 0.67 3
14 Brian Bellows 601 282 0.47 18
15 Stephane Richer 579 280 0.48 17
1994-02
Rk Player GP G G/G G/G Rank
1 Jaromir Jagr 564 345 0.61 1
2 Peter Bondra 554 320 0.58 3
3 Teemu Selanne 584 307 0.53 7
4 Keith Tkachuk 541 295 0.55 5
5 John LeClair 548 293 0.53 6
6 Brendan Shanahan 595 279 0.47 12
7 Paul Kariya 524 275 0.52 8
8 Joe Sakic 555 268 0.48 10
9 Tony Amonte 620 267 0.43 16
10 Brett Hull 561 266 0.47 11
11 Ziggy Palffy 526 265 0.5 9
12 Pavel Bure 439 264 0.6 2
13 Mats Sundin 606 262 0.43 17
14 Mike Modano 553 243 0.44 14
15 Eric Lindros 432 242 0.56 4
ASSISTS:
1986-94
Rk Player GP A A/G A/G Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 572 799 1.4 1
2 Mario Lemieux 447 567 1.27 2
3 Adam Oates 590 559 0.95 3
4 Doug Gilmour 624 540 0.87 6
5 Mark Messier 588 537 0.91 5
6 Paul Coffey 560 524 0.94 4
7 Steve Yzerman 604 518 0.86 8
8 Raymond Bourque 598 511 0.85 9
9 Dale Hawerchuk 633 504 0.8 10
10 Ron Francis 621 469 0.76 13
11 Al MacInnis 592 463 0.78 12
12 Larry Murphy 633 413 0.65 23
13 Luc Robitaille 640 411 0.64 25
14 Bernie Nicholls 554 398 0.72 16
15 Phil Housley 562 397 0.71 17
1994-02
Rk Player GP A A/G A/G Rank
1 Jaromir Jagr 564 494 0.88 2
2 Adam Oates 582 457 0.79 3
3 Ron Francis 605 446 0.74 5
4 Joe Sakic 555 425 0.77 4
5 Peter Forsberg 466 411 0.88 1
6 Doug Weight 552 398 0.72 7
7 Mark Recchi 597 362 0.61 12
8 Teemu Selanne 584 362 0.62 10
9 Brian Leetch 584 357 0.61 11
10 Theoren Fleury 589 353 0.6 13
11 Nicklas Lidstrom 605 352 0.58 19
12 Steve Yzerman 547 351 0.64 9
13 Mats Sundin 606 346 0.57 23
14 Pierre Turgeon 531 344 0.65 8
15 Vincent Damphousse 572 335 0.59 16
POINTS:
1986-94
Rk Player GP PTS PTS/G PTS/G Rank
1 Wayne Gretzky 572 1121 1.96 2
2 Mario Lemieux 447 970 2.17 1
3 Steve Yzerman 604 904 1.5 3
4 Luc Robitaille 640 803 1.25 8
5 Mark Messier 588 787 1.34 4
6 Doug Gilmour 624 773 1.24 9
7 Dale Hawerchuk 633 767 1.21 13
8 Adam Oates 590 749 1.27 7
9 Brett Hull 540 700 1.3 5
10 Pat LaFontaine 540 699 1.29 6
11 Ron Francis 621 680 1.1 22
12 Paul Coffey 560 676 1.21 12
13 Ray Bourque 598 669 1.12 21
14 Steve Larmer 632 655 1.04 30
15 Bernie Nicholls 554 649 1.17 14
1994-02
Rk Player GP PTS PTS/G PTS/G Rank
1 Jaromir Jagr 564 839 1.49 1
2 Joe Sakic 555 693 1.25 3
3 Teemu Selanne 584 669 1.15 5
4 Ron Francis 605 622 1.03 12
5 Mats Sundin 606 608 1 16
6 Theoren Fleury 589 593 1.01 14
7 Paul Kariya 524 588 1.12 6
8 Adam Oates 582 588 1.01 15
9 Peter Forsberg 466 580 1.24 4
10 Mike Modano 553 575 1.04 10
11 Keith Tkachuk 541 566 1.05 8
12 John LeClair 548 565 1.03 13
13 Mark Recchi 597 565 0.95 23
14 Eric Lindros 432 560 1.3 2
15 Pierre Turgeon 531 556 1.05 9
If you think the caliber of the best forwards post-95 were the same pre-95 even with Gretzky/Lemiuex taken out, then I think that's something we just won't agree on.
Fedorov wasn't thought of as an elite forward in the game until he won his Hart in '94. You could argue he was a noteable presence on the ice from '91 onwards when he came into the league, but he certainly wasn't in Forsberg's league at that age.
I don't subscribe to the linemates theory myself. I think it does make a very real impact on player stats.
For a moment, if you dismiss whether Jagr would have finished ahead of Yzerman too in that time, you could see how this argument right here suggests the inaccuracies of looking at just a season by season basis relatively. For instance, you're saying Jagr is better than Yzerman and if they had played at the same time, Jagr would have better numbers. With the same idea, if Sakic played against Messier, Hawerchuk, Savard and Stastny, I'm not so sure Sakic's season-end rankings would be so high relative to the rest of the league. This again goes back to the differences in talent of the two eras; something I feel you are underestimating.
As for internationally, if you're only talking about the world class tournaments, outside of a Canada Cup he played as a 19-yr old, the World Cup and two Olympics came when Yzerman was in his 30s. Sakic played well in international tournaments too but the difference isn't large at all. I mean it's not Yzerman's fault Crawford chose a defenseman over him and Gretzky in a shootout. He played his role and did so effectively each tournament.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
Sakic also had a World Cup and 2 Olympics in his 30's... He was 32, 34, and 36 in his last 3 best on best tournaments
02': 7pts in 6 games (1st on Team)
04': 6pts in 6 games (2nd on Team)
06': 3pts in 5 games (tied for 2nd on Team)
You say Yzerman "played his role and did so effectively each tournament." No argument there, but that's not enough to equal what Sakic has done.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 79,068
- 54,136
I think your concept of the 8 year peak is flawed in that supposes each player had a definitive peak and then a leveling off. Steve Yzerman certainly did before he turned into a great two way player, but the beauty of Joe Sakic's career is that it was virtually all peak. How wonderful is it to build a team around a center who gives you 100 points in his sophmore year, and then 17 years later, he's still giving you 100 points? Yzerman also had to transform his game in order to be a champion. Sakic's playoff growing pains were also much less painful than Yzerman's and he combined high octane production with championships earlier in his career.
I also don't think it makes sense to suggest that Yzerman's offensive production is more impressive because he played against higher quality forwards, as if Dale Hawerchuk were some sort of great obstacle in the way of Yzerman putting big numbers on the board. What about the fact that goaltending was much better in the 1990s and Sakic had to face some pretty high profile goalies while Yzerman did not in the late 80s?
Even in his prime offensive years Yzerman had the benefit of players like Adam Oates, Sergei Fedorov, Nicklas Lidstrom, Ray Sheppard, Dino Ciccarelli, Paul Coffey. Sakic also produced 100 points apiece on two teams that were dead last in the NHL.
Just calculated Sakic's non-prime excluding those 8 years and his PPG is about 1.15. Something like 860 points in 740 games. Essentially a 95 point pace. Of course raw numbers arent really a good indication but I believe included in his non prime are 3 years in the top 10 in scoring, 2003-04 he was tied for second. Not sure how Yzermans non-prime works out.
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,167
- 14,506
One issue is that you're assuming that a player's prime has to be eight consecutive years. Sakic was unique because his prime was so long. If we look at Sakic's eight best years, he's virtually even with Jagr, and the two of them are far ahead of everyone else.
Player|Games|Points|PPG
Jaromir Jagr | 600 | 773 | 1.29
Joe Sakic | 609 | 771 | 1.27
Mats Sundin | 605 | 577 | 0.95
Mark Recchi | 593 | 576 | 0.97
Sergei Fedorov | 583 | 543 | 0.93
Brett Hull | 498 | 532 | 1.07
Teemu Selanne | 514 | 515 | 1
Brendan Shanahan | 585 | 509 | 0.87
Mike Modano | 558 | 503 | 0.9
Keith Tkachuk | 495 | 500 | 1.01
Ron Francis | 526 | 499 | 0.95
Adam Oates | 459 | 492 | 1.07
Theoren Fleury | 425 | 488 | 1.15
Jeremy Roenick | 543 | 485 | 0.89
Paul Kariya | 492 | 484 | 0.98
Data is for 1991, 1995, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007.
Jaromir Jagr | 600 | 773 | 1.29
Joe Sakic | 609 | 771 | 1.27
Mats Sundin | 605 | 577 | 0.95
Mark Recchi | 593 | 576 | 0.97
Sergei Fedorov | 583 | 543 | 0.93
Brett Hull | 498 | 532 | 1.07
Teemu Selanne | 514 | 515 | 1
Brendan Shanahan | 585 | 509 | 0.87
Mike Modano | 558 | 503 | 0.9
Keith Tkachuk | 495 | 500 | 1.01
Ron Francis | 526 | 499 | 0.95
Adam Oates | 459 | 492 | 1.07
Theoren Fleury | 425 | 488 | 1.15
Jeremy Roenick | 543 | 485 | 0.89
Paul Kariya | 492 | 484 | 0.98
Data is for 1991, 1995, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007.
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Lafleurs Guy
Guuuuuuuy!
- Jul 20, 2007
- 75,326
- 45,318
I've been through this many times with many folks, no need for me to rehash the old arguments.
Count me among the side that would take Yzerman.
Count me among the side that would take Yzerman.
Birko19
Registered User
Ohh did he? 3 of Yzerman's top offensive seasons were 88, 89, and 90, the next best player on his team was Gerard Gallant, not Oates, in fact Oates was not very effective until he left Detroit, so nice try there.
The same crap can be used for Mr.Sakic, his best offensive seasons were 96 and 01, and guess what, one of the best playmakers of all time happened to be on his team.
Agreed with most of the posts in this thread. Well done everyone.
Also, I've said this before and I'll say it again, any player comparison that attempts to level the playing field by removing Lemieux and Gretzky is instantly flawed if it fails to remove Jagr from the equation as well. No, 68 wasn't as dominant as 66 and 99, but he was still offensively head and shoulders above every other player in the last 30 years.
Also, I've said this before and I'll say it again, any player comparison that attempts to level the playing field by removing Lemieux and Gretzky is instantly flawed if it fails to remove Jagr from the equation as well. No, 68 wasn't as dominant as 66 and 99, but he was still offensively head and shoulders above every other player in the last 30 years.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
You mean virtually even with Jagr over the same years, right? Because those years you are leaving out (92-94, 97-98, 2000, 05-06) were kinda big ones for Jagr; he had over 900 pts in his best 8 seasons, not 770-some.
Doing the same for Yzerman gives 917 pts in 626 games. Interesting difference being that 7 of Yzerman's best production years were consecutive, and the 8th only separated by major injury and then the first lockout. Stopping after 7 ('86/87-'92/93) gives 822 in 546, 3rd to Gretzky/Lemieux, more than 100 pts more than Robitaille or Messier... and Gallant was the second highest scorer on the Wings for around 4, 5 of those seasons (until Fedorov's rookie year in '90/91), and Coffey wasn't even on the Wings until after that period. That all has to count for a lot.
See above. I think those guys played quite little with Detroit during Yzerman's "prime years". Oates - first 3 years, Fedorov - last 3, Lidstrom last 2, Sheppard - last 2, Ciccarelli - last 1, Paul Coffey - part of the last season. The longest of those, Oates and Fedorov, obviously didn't even play with him, and in fact occupied spots on lines below Yzerman, so it was Yzerman distracting other teams' top checkers from THEM. Only Oates (with his 78 pts) was there when Stevie put up 155, and none of the players you listed were on the team when Yzerman had 127 pts in 79 games, btw.
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Sakic had better durability and better playoff success. Its funny how people just want to find ways to rank the older player higher than the one who was more recent. Same thing in football, peyton manning will eventually surpass Brett Favre but you will have older fans try to dismiss it.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,863
- 16,358
with regard to era, saying that yzerman competed against hawerchuk, savard, and stastny is misleading.
yzerman's first 100 point year was '87-'88, when he finished 12th in scoring. that was hawerchuk, savard, and stastny's last big years. none of them scored 100 points again after that year, while yzerman would begin his run of 5 straight top 10 seasons in '88-'89. the years those guys were scoring 130 points, yzerman was young and still scoring 90. in the sense that sakic didn't play against those guys, neither did yzerman.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,863
- 16,358
this really illustrates just how good sakic was from the very beginning, and how unfair it is to his career to limit his prime to '94 and after.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
This will always be a case that is argued.
Sakic was not good defensively for the first few years of his career, but was not terrible either. He then became very good in that regard early on by his early 20's and remained so for the rest of his career without losing his high end offense in the process. Much earlier than Yzerman did, although not reaching the peaks Yzerman did when Yzerman, like Scott Stevens, gave up a good chunk of his offense to gain that defense.
Its revisionist history to portray Yzerman was a complete player early in his career when he really was not.
Yzerman was not good defensively before Bowman arrived, merely not bad, and had to lose a good bulk of his offense to become that good defensively. Whether or not you want to believe it or not, or want to revise History, even Jimmy Devellano from the Wings staff spoke up about it at a SIHR meeting.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Dude, what are you talking about? They came into the league only 5 years apart, and Yzerman only retired, like, 3 or 4 years ago... It's almost akin to saying that people will try to find ways to make Dany Heatley seem better than Ovechkin, as Heatley is from waaaaaay back in '01 (can you feel the nostalgia?) whereas Ovechkin came to us in modern day '05 (which is so recent you probably all still have those Christmas cards lying around, right?).
There were players "back then" that were better than the vast majority of all NHLers are today, btw, and Yzerman is certainly one of them (so is Sakic, for that matter).
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Well, he is free to do so, but how long until someone pipes up about Mario or Jagr's numbers, and calls them inflated because the team was in financial distress, and needed to attract attention. While we're at it, I'm sure we could find someone who overheard a joke over a beer at a bar suggesting that Gretzky's numbers were inflated because he was encouraged to drum up interest in this expansion Oilers team that had just entered the league. In any event, I don't care much about what Devellano meant by what he said. The Red Wings won their division the year Yzerman hit 155, and were very much middle of the league in goals allowed.
I mean, come on, those guys still scored their points, and the other teams didn't let them do it. And in terms of defense, aren't we supposed to rate our perception of their abilities, NOT necessarily their abilities to do what they're told? Whether or not either guy was asked to play defense early in their careers, both showed that they were very capable of doing it when they had to.
Sure, Yzerman may seem to have "sacrificed" more offense than Sakic to achieve "Selke-level defense", but really he had already sacrificed his knees much earlier than that (which hurt his offense much more than the style change, imo). And despite all that, he remained a PPG player until his mid 30s and that major knee surgery in '02.
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poise
Registered User
- Apr 5, 2008
- 232
- 5
I believe I touched on many of the same issues that rallymaster19 brought up about seventieslord's detailed study when he made his thread about Yzerman facing more stiff competition from top end scorers, team strength becoming a reality past Yzerman's best years, etc (while being to lazy to show the statistical backing of course 
).
Again, Sakic is clearly the more dominant player in terms of scoring placements, but to me, that is less valuable than raw point totals. Of course, my opinion stems mainly from watching and comparing both play and is very subjective, yet most convincing to me.
I always thought Yzerman was one of those players whose offensive numbers don't fully reflect his offensive performance (comparable to say Pat Lafontaine) as it seemed very frequent that even when he didn't score or get an assist, he was one of the most involved players in a resulting goal, while Sakic was a bit more quiet than I thought his numbers reflected.
On the topic of their comparison, if you take a look at the years they played in the league together, 1988-2006, Sakic paces for a 38 goal/98 point (82 game) season while Yzerman paces for a 38 goal/95 point season throughout that time. This probably hurts Yzerman more however as it cuts out two of Yzerman's early years and his breakout season, while only cutting out Sakic's 100 point season at age 37 and then his last couple of injury riddled seasons.
I'd argue that Yzerman was also better defensively every single year from that period except from 2003 and beyond, both got better at defense as they went, but Yzerman always had the step ahead (I have made the point before that Yzerman's defense in his offensive prime was much better than commonly portrayed today, and that is what is attested in the media at the time - Jimmy Devellano may disagree, but other coaches and general managers like Dick Todd, Jacques Demers, and Bryan Murray state this).
For a look at their primes, Yzerman dominated the rest of the top stars at a quite significantly, both in the three seasons when he was generally considered the third best player and throughout the seasons where he paced for 100 point seasons.
His point per game margins over non Gretzky and Lemieux players compare to and even surpass Jagr's domination when he won 5 Art Rosses and was runner up once.
Those kind of point per game margins over Oates during his years with Hull (and later Neely), and Lafontaine during his breakout, Messier, Nicholls when he was playing alongside Gretzky, and more are insane. That is stiff competition, if only in terms of point production (Nicholls and Oates).
People sometimes forget that Yzerman was spoken about in a way that even actually put him in the class of Gretzky and Lemieux during the late 1980's. Bobby Hull for example when speaking about what he expected from his son when he started his scoring tear remarked "I told him he needn't take a back seat to Gretzky, Yzerman and Lemieux anymore. He's got that kind of talent. I'll be even more proud of him after the season when he's averaged a goal a game and led the league. He can do it. He can play with the best" (Boston Globe - November 12, 1989) and Michel Bergeron who in an earlier season publicly berated Yzerman for diving would later state: "He is a great one, right up there in the same category with Gretzky and (Mario) Lemieux" (Detroit Free Press - January 20, 1990).
).Again, Sakic is clearly the more dominant player in terms of scoring placements, but to me, that is less valuable than raw point totals. Of course, my opinion stems mainly from watching and comparing both play and is very subjective, yet most convincing to me.
I always thought Yzerman was one of those players whose offensive numbers don't fully reflect his offensive performance (comparable to say Pat Lafontaine) as it seemed very frequent that even when he didn't score or get an assist, he was one of the most involved players in a resulting goal, while Sakic was a bit more quiet than I thought his numbers reflected.
On the topic of their comparison, if you take a look at the years they played in the league together, 1988-2006, Sakic paces for a 38 goal/98 point (82 game) season while Yzerman paces for a 38 goal/95 point season throughout that time. This probably hurts Yzerman more however as it cuts out two of Yzerman's early years and his breakout season, while only cutting out Sakic's 100 point season at age 37 and then his last couple of injury riddled seasons.
I'd argue that Yzerman was also better defensively every single year from that period except from 2003 and beyond, both got better at defense as they went, but Yzerman always had the step ahead (I have made the point before that Yzerman's defense in his offensive prime was much better than commonly portrayed today, and that is what is attested in the media at the time - Jimmy Devellano may disagree, but other coaches and general managers like Dick Todd, Jacques Demers, and Bryan Murray state this).
For a look at their primes, Yzerman dominated the rest of the top stars at a quite significantly, both in the three seasons when he was generally considered the third best player and throughout the seasons where he paced for 100 point seasons.
His point per game margins over non Gretzky and Lemieux players compare to and even surpass Jagr's domination when he won 5 Art Rosses and was runner up once.
Those kind of point per game margins over Oates during his years with Hull (and later Neely), and Lafontaine during his breakout, Messier, Nicholls when he was playing alongside Gretzky, and more are insane. That is stiff competition, if only in terms of point production (Nicholls and Oates).
People sometimes forget that Yzerman was spoken about in a way that even actually put him in the class of Gretzky and Lemieux during the late 1980's. Bobby Hull for example when speaking about what he expected from his son when he started his scoring tear remarked "I told him he needn't take a back seat to Gretzky, Yzerman and Lemieux anymore. He's got that kind of talent. I'll be even more proud of him after the season when he's averaged a goal a game and led the league. He can do it. He can play with the best" (Boston Globe - November 12, 1989) and Michel Bergeron who in an earlier season publicly berated Yzerman for diving would later state: "He is a great one, right up there in the same category with Gretzky and (Mario) Lemieux" (Detroit Free Press - January 20, 1990).
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