Sakic vs. Sundin

[Merya]

More talented in what way? What could Sundin do that Sakic couldn't do better? I'm honestly curious. Sundin was bigger, that's the only thing I can think of.

From seeing Swedish national team alot, and Colorado games, I think Sundin was a more forceful player that could pressure the opposition better. Sakic had superior vision perhaps, but otherwise I think Sundin was a more "complete package".
Altho now thet I think of it, you have a point, since I consider Gretzky the most talented and best player of all time, and all he really had going for him was the vision.

Sundin looked more dominant on the ice to me. I guess that's the best I can make of it.

 

[seventieslord]

No. sakic was quite clearly a better hockey player than Sundin. The main reason was his determination.

 

[Merya]

No. sakic was quite clearly a better hockey player than Sundin. The main reason was his determination.

While I don't like Swedes, Sundin, or Toronto; I think you're exaggarating here. The margin is rather small, and it certainly isn't because of determination either. In Colorado Sundin could've been another Forsberg, without the injuries. And Forsberg when he was healthy was better than Sakic in the same team.
And I love Sakic as a player, but the trend here seems to be to underrate noncanadians a bit.(remember, I REALLY don't like swedes)

 

[Fredrik_71]

While I don't like Swedes, Sundin, or Toronto; I think you're exaggarating here. The margin is rather small, and it certainly isn't because of determination either. In Colorado Sundin could've been another Forsberg, without the injuries. And Forsberg when he was healthy was better than Sakic in the same team.
And I love Sakic as a player, but the trend here seems to be to underrate noncanadians a bit.(remember, I REALLY don't like swedes)

I'm sad to hear I like finns a lot.

/Cheers

 

[Canadiens1958]

Agree

No. sakic was quite clearly a better hockey player than Sundin. The main reason was his determination.

I agree with the conclusion but from my vantage point the main reason would be that Joe Sakic was one of the most efficient players that I have had the pleasure of watching. Very close to Gordie Howe from the standpoint of efficiency.

 

[jkrx]

I agree with the conclusion but from my vantage point the main reason would be that Joe Sakic was one of the most efficient players that I have had the pleasure of watching. Very close to Gordie Howe from the standpoint of efficiency.

No.. Sakic isnt close to Howe in efficiency.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

While I don't like Swedes, Sundin, or Toronto; I think you're exaggarating here. The margin is rather small, and it certainly isn't because of determination either. In Colorado Sundin could've been another Forsberg, without the injuries. And Forsberg when he was healthy was better than Sakic in the same team.
And I love Sakic as a player, but the trend here seems to be to underrate noncanadians a bit.(remember, I REALLY don't like swedes)

Based on what? Forsberg was a more complete and more dominating player, pure and simple. I agree with seventies, Sundin lacked intensity and determination at key times. Unless he was wearing a Team Sweden jersey, I don't think he really cared too much whether his team won or lost.

 

[jkrx]

Based on what? Forsberg was a more complete and more dominating player, pure and simple. I agree with seventies, Sundin lacked intensity and determination at key times. Unless he was wearing a Team Sweden jersey, I don't think he really cared too much whether his team won or lost.

...and the north american bias resurfaces.

 

[mrzeigler]

This subject has been discussed on the main board lately. If Sundin stayed in Quebec (and later Colorado) and Sakic was the one who got traded to Toronto, do you think that Sundin's career would turn to be just as good as Sakic's on those stacked Avs teams?

Interesting question. I tend to let the halo of the latter half of Sakic's career, his playoff performances and the fact that I was a big fan of his from his Quebec days erase any shortcomings of his early years.

And — even though he routinely lit up my Penguins for an average of something like a point per game— I similarly undervalue Sundin because of the Leafs were, lets face it, irrelevant for much of his tenure.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

...and the north american bias resurfaces.

How can North American bias possibly apply when comparing Sundin to Forsberg?

 

[Fredrik_71]

How can North American bias possibly apply when comparing Sundin to Forsberg?

I dont concur with the comment by jkrx but what a lame comment earlier by kyle that Sundin didn't care. To make it in the NHL you must have commitment and I definitely think he showed that with his clutch performance. You just don't make it at that level all those seasons without caring.

/Cheers

 

[jkrx]

How can North American bias possibly apply when comparing Sundin to Forsberg?

I didn't take in context with Forsberg.

Based on what? Forsberg was a more complete and more dominating player, pure and simple.

End of comparison.

I agree with seventies, Sundin lacked intensity and determination at key times. Unless he was wearing a Team Sweden jersey, I don't think he really cared too much whether his team won or lost.

New argument unrelated to Forsberg but to Sundin in general or compared to Sakic.

What I meant with "North american bias" resurfacing is the old argument of euros not caring to win. Sundin has proved this argument wrong on many occasions and its just ridiculous to say that he didn't "care".

I don't get the argument about Sundin being "outperformed" in the playoffs by Roberts and Thomas. He werent. Unless we are now thinking that one measly point is outperforming or when Sundin played 8 games.

As I remember it was guys like Tucker and Reichel who underperformed in the playoffs on that Leafs team.

 

[jkrx]

I dont concur with the comment by jkrx but what a lame comment earlier by kyle that Sundin didn't care. To make it in the NHL you must have commitment and I definitely think he showed that with his clutch performance. You just don't make it at that level all those seasons without caring.

/Cheers

Well you actually dont have to have that much of a commitment as there are a few bad apples who gets there. Latest case would be Brunnstrom who must be the laziest player I've ever met. But I get your point and it is fairly certain that you don't have 18 season career without determination or commitment.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Claim Euro-bias all you like, I remember what I saw. And my impression was that Sundin would rather be at the World Championships than playing for the Stanley Cup. And yes he was out-performed by secondary players at key times. This isn't based on point totals either. The lack of physical play, intensity, and the willingness to battle were all shortcomings exhibited by Sundin in many Leaf playoff games that I witnessed. Interesting how in a year where Sundin missed half the playoffs injured the Leafs nearly made the final. Makes one pretty skeptical of the "Sundin had no support" theory.

All these things apply to Joe Thornton as well, and I've been one of his biggest critics over the years. What country is Joe from? My all-time favorite player is Igor Ulanov...he is from Saskatoon, isn't he?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I dont concur with the comment by jkrx but what a lame comment earlier by kyle that Sundin didn't care. To make it in the NHL you must have commitment and I definitely think he showed that with his clutch performance. You just don't make it at that level all those seasons without caring.

/Cheers

Not saying Sundin lacked a committment to the game, I'm saying I don't think he was a player that was really motivated by a fear of losing. He's certainly not the only one.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Something to think about when comparing linemates. Sakic was a far superior player and elevated the play of his linemates.

If you switch teams then Sakic helps Ponikarovsky and Reichel's improve their game while Avs fans complain that Sundin had to play with bums like Deadmarsh and Brunette.

Sakic put up stellar numbers on non-contending teams like the last place Nords or an Avs roster that missed the playoffs.

 

[jkrx]

Claim Euro-bias all you like, I remember what I saw. And my impression was that Sundin would rather be at the World Championships than playing for the Stanley Cup. And yes he was out-performed by secondary players at key times. This isn't based on point totals either. The lack of physical play, intensity, and the willingness to battle were all shortcomings exhibited by Sundin in many Leaf playoff games that I witnessed. Interesting how in a year where Sundin missed half the playoffs injured the Leafs nearly made the final. Makes one pretty skeptical of the "Sundin had no support" theory.

All these things apply to Joe Thornton as well, and I've been one of his biggest critics over the years. What country is Joe from? My all-time favorite player is Igor Ulanov...he is from Saskatoon, isn't he?

It was rather the way you worded it. You made it sound like he was some kind of player who just slides along and simply doesnt care at all or thats what I got out of it.

Besides could it be that Sundin was worn down when playoff time started. I mean certain season he basically carried the leafs. No, I am not saying Sakic didnt carry his team but he didnt have to do it in the manner Sundin had to.

I'm still saying Sakic is better but I just dont see him as a such a clear cut winner as some of you do.

Something to think about when comparing linemates. Sakic was a far superior player and elevated the play of his linemates.

If you switch teams then Sakic helps Ponikarovsky and Reichel's improve their game while Avs fans complain that Sundin had to play with bums like Deadmarsh and Brunette.

Sakic put up stellar numbers on non-contending teams like the last place Nords or an Avs roster that missed the playoffs.

...because Deadmarsh and specially Brunette is terrible players? Sundin did elevate his line mates. Look at Tucker and Höglund when playing with Sundin. If remember correctly, Tucker was Sundins linemate for the most of the time and I wouldnt say Tucker is that great of a player.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Closed.

If any of you want to continue to treat one another like jackasses, please do it elsewhere.