Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
- Sep 27, 2005
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RW Jake Virtanen (2014, 6th, VAN) IV
- Thread starter Bear of Bad News
- Start date
Luongos Knob
PDO Kings
- Jan 20, 2009
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Sure would be nice to have Nylander and Pastrnak vs Virtanen and (Mccann)
Thats 2/3rds of a future 1st line there
Thats 2/3rds of a future 1st line there
I honestly don't think he would be a ppg in the ECHL, we may find out soon with his current trajectory
You do realize its a two-way street right? Canucks fans hype their players up more than Isles or Canes fans do, so they get more backlash later on. The same logic applies to Leafs players on this board to an even more extreme degree. Magnify by the fact that these posters argued with Leafs and Jets fans about Virtanen over Ehlers (not all, but some) and this is what it eventually turns into.
It is also that he hasn't been able to stay out of the limelight. He was terrible at a high-profile event and wasn't great with the Canucks. Whereas Fleury was average with Team Canada, but mostly forgotten about and Dal Colle got cut twice, so he didn't hurt how people viewed him.
You also have to acknowledge, Benning and co, do things that are quite comical and make no sense (the "stuff quote"). That is before even getting into his divisive style of play.
Frank Garrett
Duncan
- Apr 27, 2005
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The funny thing is I kinda agree too. I don't know if he would be a PPG player in the ECHL. He seems to be the kind of guy who can be a complimentary player, opposed to someone who drives the offense himself. If he doesn't have a lead offensive player on this team, I don't think he could generate enough offence.
You have clearly never watched him play, he never uses his teammates, he generates almost all of his chances by using his speed off the rush
Disagree about Dal Colle. Him not cracking Canada's WJC roster even though he had the reputation of a top5 pick definitely changed peoples views of him to the worse.
I haven't read the thread about Virtanen right after he was drafted so i don't know if there were a lot of Canucks-fans hyping him up at the time. I know there have been a lot of Canucks-fans critizing the pick also though, me included. I also went back to read Virtanen's 1st thread here, and it seems a lot of people were hyping him up back then. Fans of all sorts of teams. Not just Canucks-fans.
I do agree with your points, at least initially. Basing strictly off of the WJHC, when Da Colle was cut, I, like many others were very surprised. That was the first red flag for me regarding Da Colle as a prospect.
However, I, like many others are left with a stronger memory of Virtanen being such a negative contributor to the team. Taking those 2 penalties, which many hold firmly to their beliefs, cost us the game again Finland. Being such a negative player for a 19 year old was a bigger overall surprise, even with prior NHL experience, than Da Colle being cut.
In terms of who has the brighter future for these two prospects, it is really a coin toss. It is easier to point out Virtanen's flaws as it is magnified playing in Canadian market in the NHL. However, his body of work definitely leaves a lot to be desired.
I were also surprised. Still, looking back at Dal Colle's junior career, he had a pretty successful junior career besides not making Team Canada. Problem was probably that he had a great draft year, so people expected him to produce better and better every year even though his offensive numbers were already very good. He won the Memorial Cup in his post draft year, being the leading scorer on the team in the regular season, and tied for leading scorer on the team in the OHL-playoffs. Also tied for most points on the team in the Memorial Cup.
His last year was a little bit of a disappointment, which was probably a big reason why he didn't crack Team Canada once again, even though this time he really had ALL the advantages of making it. Still, he bounced back and finished the season off strong after being traded to Kingston. I still think he's got a reasonable shot of being a 2nd liner.
Yes a lot of people definitely remember Virtanen for his last WJC tournament, which was a big disappointment. Probably the reason why people bother showing up to the thread just to point out what a bust he is whenever they get the chance. I personally don't bother dissing other teams prospects. I know a lot of people were fans of him (even Leafs fans) after his 1st WJC tournament when he wasn't bad at all. He threw big hits left and right and i know a lot of people were actually jealous of the Canucks for having a prospect like him back then. He played really good in a bottom6 role which made him advance to the top6 when Ritchie wasn't really up to the challenge. But yes, people definitely remember him more for his last appearance when he was put in a leader role but couldn't really handle it, which is a shame.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
In the end, is the only difference between Virtanen and Tyler Biggs going to be that Virtanen was at least given a chance in the NHL?
Love
Registered User
- Feb 29, 2012
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No not at all. Virtanen actually has a lot of talent and raw ability but he also has a horrendous attitude problem. Biggs never had NHL talent or ability.
Tyler Biggs and Virtnanen have some comparables but anyone who follows hockey will know that Virtanen is (and at their respective ages was) a better prospect. When drafted Tyler Biggs did have some raw tools and talent, but was seen as project. If he blossomed offensively he could have been a good pick. However, as we all know, his offense never came and his other skills were not enough to propel him to becoming a regular NHL player. Last I heard he is still floating around the East Coast league.
With Virtanen, in principle, they may have similar skillsets - as in, they both are/were raw and have talent, but Virtanen has the upper hand in regards to offense - at least at this point in their careers.
The main question at this point is if his offense can translate to the NHL. At this point it is up for debate, and I won't further give my personal opinion. If it does not translate, then he may follow a similar path as Biggs. The benefit of Virtanen over Biggs is due to his high draft status. If it does not work out in Vancouver, I feel teams will have some interest in him opposed to him being buried in some NHL affiliate's system. Also, as I said all along, it may be wise from both a Virtanen perspective and Vancouver management perspective to split ways, as the current situation looks rather bleak.
With Virtanen, in principle, they may have similar skillsets - as in, they both are/were raw and have talent, but Virtanen has the upper hand in regards to offense - at least at this point in their careers.
The main question at this point is if his offense can translate to the NHL. At this point it is up for debate, and I won't further give my personal opinion. If it does not translate, then he may follow a similar path as Biggs. The benefit of Virtanen over Biggs is due to his high draft status. If it does not work out in Vancouver, I feel teams will have some interest in him opposed to him being buried in some NHL affiliate's system. Also, as I said all along, it may be wise from both a Virtanen perspective and Vancouver management perspective to split ways, as the current situation looks rather bleak.
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As often is the case with young prospects, a change of scenery can be the best thing for their development. I am sure there is am enormous amount of pressure on Virtnanen, especially being a high profile draft pick and a local kid playing in a Canadian market. Also, with him being the center of talk due to an abysmal Vancouver team cannot do him any favours. At the time of his draft, he was Vancouver's highest draft pick since 1999 (Daniel/Henriks draft year), and thus the "savior" role could have been placed on him to an extent. That would be such a huge burden to carry, especially when his confidence is already taken a dive. Best of luck kid, I hope you can turn it around.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Sorry, I didn't mean they were particularly similar players or similar level prospects at draft time. But it seems like Virtanen is headed down Bust Blvd, same direction Biggs went, and in the end it will look like he achieved a lot more by getting into some NHL games, but he was given a chance (that he didn't really deserve) and Biggs wasn't.
Like Biggs, he can't seem to score even in the AHL. On the other hand, he found a way last season to score about 13 more points than I think Biggs might have scored in 55 games...
Like Biggs, he can't seem to score even in the AHL. On the other hand, he found a way last season to score about 13 more points than I think Biggs might have scored in 55 games...
DeltaSwede
Registered User
http://vancouversun.com/sports/hock...ey-news-comments-i-dont-hold-that-against-him
From poster "oldnews" on Canucks.com:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67
I'd encourage you to read the full vancouver sun article, there are some interesting quotes from Sven Baertschi regarding the Virtanen situation as well.
Before the vultures start typing away, regarding Benning questioning if he should pick up the phone or not, he said it while laughing and in a joking manner, wasn't clear in this article but it is in Jason Botchfords article for the province.
No reason to call this kid a bust, absolutely none.
From poster "oldnews" on Canucks.com:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67
I'd encourage you to read the full vancouver sun article, there are some interesting quotes from Sven Baertschi regarding the Virtanen situation as well.
Before the vultures start typing away, regarding Benning questioning if he should pick up the phone or not, he said it while laughing and in a joking manner, wasn't clear in this article but it is in Jason Botchfords article for the province.
No reason to call this kid a bust, absolutely none.
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Regarding the post that you quoted... Does he really have middling QOC if he plummets to the bottom when you check his Corsi Rel QOC? The only players still playing on the team with a worse Corsi Rel QOC are Granlund and Dorsett. I only have an elementary understanding of advanced stats so maybe someone more knowledgeable can put that more into context.
Secondly is turnover differential really indicative of anything? From what I have seen Virtanen rarely makes any attempt at making a play or generating offense. He will have less turnovers than someone that takes risks and actually tries to do more more with the puck.
Hits are good and it shows that he is a physical player which is valuable but if he cannot get over his other deficiencies and become a more dynamic player then all he ever projects to be is a 4th liner.
He is still young and Vancouver can afford to be patient with him but he has just shown so little in his pro career thus far. I don't think he will ever be the player he was projected to be. The more I watch him the more underwhelmed I am by his play.
The Torres comparison is quite fair, and I really loved watching him play in the NHL. This year and possibly next will be very instrumental in the direction of Virtanens career. If he shows he not only belongs, but excels in the AHL; and can put up some solid numbers, then I think he will be able to be a respectable player (akin to Torres). That is a big IF though. He has the tools to make it happen, but everytime I watch him I do have some serious doubts.
In some aspects he reminds me of a player like Kerby Rychel. A young player with good size and respectable junior stats, who can play a physical game. May not be the best defensively, but can add a unique element to the game. The issue thus far with Rychel is consistency and offensive abilities at the pro level, which is quite similar to Virtanen. I know Kerby is older, but he did have better junior stats as well as AHL. Not sure where is pro career is headed as of this moment either. I see and value them very similarly as prospects.
I've seen this thrown around a bit, but Virtanen has one major advantage over Rychel which is his skating. There's a reason Virtanen won the on-ice combine at the Top Prospects game, which is he is an explosive skater. The thing Virtanen probably has to accept is that he just doesn't have the skill to be an elite scorer in the NHL and focus on other aspects of his game. He needs to be a tenacious forechecker at all times using his size and speed. Maybe he can have a year or two where he gets hot and pots 25. While he does a bunch of frustrating things, the one thing all people love about Evander Kane (and why he will stick around the league unless he is truly a cancer) is that he is a tenacious forechecker. If you aren't a high-iq guy, you should try to create situations where you can capitalize when teams breakdown under heavy pressure. He's never going to be the guy to make that pin point pass or read to consistently break down a team. The quicker he realizes this the better player he will become.
DeltaSwede
Registered User
Lot's of definitives and conclusions being thrown around about a 2nd year pro. Never knew projections were this easy.
Peter Griffin
Registered User
It's too bad Utica is such a crappy team, Jake's not going to get much offensive support from the guys down there.
