Rutherford calls out NHL on abuse of star players

[tarheelhockey]

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/gary-bettman-downplays-sidney-crosby-abuse-playoffs-235909997.html

Bettman downplayed the criticism as gamesmanship from the veteran executive.

“On both a personal and professional level, I think the world of Jim Rutherford,†said Bettman. “The timing of what he said seems a little odd. That’s something you do at a GMs meeting, not the day of Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Final. Maybe he’s trying to tweak the officials a little bit,†said Bettman, with an literal wink.
---
This what I'm talking about.

So there you have it.

Like a good number of fans here, Bettman has successfully turned this into a conversation about Jim Rutherford and the Penguins. Not about cleaning up this obviously broken game.

This, folks, is why you can find the EXACT SAME conversations in newspaper articles from 20 years ago. "Pshaw, he's just trying to get an advantage" is a perfect antidote to actually encouraging change from within.

Hope everyone likes obstruction and injured players, because it's not going to change as long as the fans themselves are more interested in holding back their opponents than in restoring the quality of the game itself.

 

[Romang67]

"Well here's a highlight reel of you doing the holding... YOU'RE the problem here!"

As expected.

You can carry on with your false equivalences if you wish. Ironically, by acting as if the people who are against the targeted attacks of star players by players on the Penguins as well as other teams are saying that Rutherford is the problem, instead of part of the problem, you're making it impossible to carry a discussion. If you actually believe that it's impossible to both see that Rutherford is part of the problem and still see that his comments about the abuse of star players is 100% correct, I think we're done here.

You're acting as if it's impossible to discuss the problem and still be aware that Rutherford isn't without blame in the issue. This is not the case. Shockingly, back in March, this very problem was being discussed on these very boards. I was involved in the discussion. So were many of the posters in this thread. It is a continuing problem that star players are being targeted by other players, as it three months ago. Yes, solving it starts with people like Rutherford speaking up. It also starts with people like Rutherford refusing to exacerbating the problem by moving backward in time and hire goons to dole out justice on their own terms. But again, because of your tone in this discussion and your stubborn refusal to acknowledge that people may be clever enough to understand that Rutherford is right even if we don't personally care much for the man, I'm done discussing this.

 

[CommonKingfisher]

If you actually believe that it's impossible to both see that Rutherford is part of the problem and still see that his comments about the abuse of star players is 100% correct, I think we're done here.

Do note that Rutherford could have made these comments at any time. He could have gone to the media at any point. He can do so immediately following the awarding of the Stanley Cup. People will listen. And no, if people say that Rutherford could do better himself, that doesn't mean that we're ignoring that it's a problem. We're simply looking at the entire picture.

Of course he is part of the problem (in some ways). He has to build a competitive team. To do that he needs players who can throw heavy hits and players who do the same **** everyone else does (slashing, holding...).
If he doesn't do that or the players don't do that, they will be overrun by 29 other teams. That wouldn't change anything except having even more injured players and number 1 draft picks for the next 20 years.

Why he does it now? Very simple. Publicity
The final of the Stanley Cup is the time with the most amount of public interest. That way he can reach more people than in the regular season. If enough people talk about it and critise the league maybe they will change it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Good job, JR.

Now hopefully he will follow suit and pick up a couple of guys to take care of business next season.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If you actually believe that it's impossible to both see that Rutherford is part of the problem and still see that his comments about the abuse of star players is 100% correct, I think we're done here.

Name a GM who's not complicit in the system.

There isn't one.

Therefore no GM is credible enough to speak about this.

Awesome. I can feel the league getting better already.

Do note that Rutherford could have made these comments at any time. He could have gone to the media at any point. He can do so immediately following the awarding of the Stanley Cup. People will listen.

He was asked in a THN article about his thoughts on Crosby taking nonstop abuse during the Senators series.

This has been said multiple times. Rutherford didn't hold a press conference to say this, it wasn't something he randomly posted to Twitter. He was asked to comment on it by the biggest periodical in the sport. Why on earth would he tell them to wait until the summertime when the story would be a month old and nobody would be paying attention anyway?

"Hold all commentary until the issue is completely off the radar!" is right up there with "But whatabout that thing HE did???" as thought processes which neuter any possibility of significant change. The rest of the conversation is a bunch of tail-chasing about why it's wrong of that person to speak about the topic, and then the argument dies down, and nothing has happened to address the actual root problem.

edit: I mean for god's sake, Bettman completely dodged the issue and ****ing winked at the reporter. That's the response you're going to get if you stick to the "yeah but THIS guy can't say anything about this because X, and THAT guy can't say anything because Y, and THAT guy can't say anything because Z". You get a commissioner who flippantly blows off the defining crisis in the sport over the past two decades as being just a bunch of whining and gamesmanship.

 

[Viqsi]

So now he is guilty of not pointing out the problem in full? Do you think he is happy with abuse Kuhnhackl gets?

No, and that's why I'm shocked he didn't bring it up. It's a very recent high-profile incident against a Pens player that is exactly the sort of thing that should not be in the game today, and the fact that we got Calvert back after one game is insanity. Instead, he was given the opportunity to strictly limit the conversation to star players (heck, to Crosby alone; he's the one who said "protect stars"), and he took it. That's what makes me think it's less addressing the problem and more gamesmanship. If he limits the conversation to "protect star players", he disproportionately benefits.

He's bringing up part of the right thing, seemingly for the wrong reasons. And the way he's doing so is "well, gosh, we can't fix this, so watch as I make the problem even worse and it's such a damned shame."

 

[CornKicker]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/playoffs/article/penguins-expect-crosby-abuse-to-continue-but-they-re-growing-tired-of-it

Instead of pushing the NHL toward fast, skilled hockey. The Canadian hockey yinzers still want there old style of hockey.

If you allow the "stars" to be abused without any penalty. Then get rid of the instigator penalty and allow the players to police themselves.

Asking the refs to call the same penalties the first day of season to game 7 of the finals, is unrealistic. It will never happen.

everything he said is true, look what teams get away with doing vs crosby. look what getzlaf was doing vs calgary and edmonton. the elite players take a TON of uncalled abuse and its deteriorating the game. its not a hey look that GM is whining thing its an actual league wide problem. and until the players cant get away with it.....they will keep dong it.

 

[MarkStone]

But that game in March against an irrelevant non-playoff team was so crucial to this playoff run...

Although if it was up to you he would have been in the lineup. After all, you posted on the Penguins board that you wanted Karlsson's ankle turned into dust even in a losing cause.

 

[MarkStone]

Cooke was under shero. The methot slash literally happens 20 times a game, result was unfortunate. If they want to start suspending for those plays fine, but that's not the type of stuff he's really after.

The reason he does it now is because all of the hockey media is assembled in one place with a lot of attention on it. If he does it in the off season no one would even pay attention or give it a second thought.

This is hilarious considering Rutherford's point was about the normalization of dirty, cheap plays in this league. Funny how the goalposts shift in these situations...

 

[tarheelhockey]

No, and that's why I'm shocked he didn't bring it up.

He was asked a question about Crosby taking excessive abuse during the conference finals. Responding by bringing up Kuhnhackl would have been a total non sequitur.

It would be like if I asked you about teams beating up on Sam Gagner in April, and you responded with "Well let me tell you what happened to Hartnell in February". People would have thought Rutherford was drunk or senile if he had started babbling like that. He answered the question he was asked.

It's amazing that by giving a direct and honest answer that ought to be reflexively supported by 100% of hockey fans regardless of team bias, he is still being painted as a conspirator acting in bad faith and looking for "disproportionate benefits".

 

[bambamcam4ever]

If he came out and said that the abuse of all players needs to stop then there would likely be some more support. However he said star players should get special treatment and right there lies the hypocrisy.

Would he say the same thing if he was coaching a team without Crosby and Malkin. Of course not. He is saying it because his stars are taking more abuse not because all stars receive more abuse.

He didn't come out and say it was a problem when his stars were dealing out the abuse and got the special treatment. Hence the hypocrisy.

The funny thing is that it is the stars who already get "special treatment" from the refs.

That special treatment means that marginal players can hook, hold, and tackle you as they please without being called because otherwise it would be "unfair" to the lesser skilled players and they couldn't keep up.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Although if it was up to you he would have been in the lineup. After all, you posted on the Penguins board that you wanted Karlsson's ankle turned into dust even in a losing cause.

Yup, but only as a response to the BS the Sens were pulling. If they weren't acting like low-rent dirtbags I would've never held that sentiment.

 

[me2]

So long as JR supports goons grabbing his star players and opening up on them when they commit fouls. If the star player committing the foul is too tough then teams should be free to grab a soft player on their team and wail on them. Eye for an eye and all that.

 

[Spazkat]

Of course he is part of the problem (in some ways). He has to build a competitive team. To do that he needs players who can throw heavy hits and players who do the same **** everyone else does (slashing, holding...).
If he doesn't do that or the players don't do that, they will be overrun by 29 other teams. That wouldn't change anything except having even more injured players and number 1 draft picks for the next 20 years.

Why he does it now? Very simple. Publicity
The final of the Stanley Cup is the time with the most amount of public interest. That way he can reach more people than in the regular season. If enough people talk about it and critise the league maybe they will change it.

Of course a little nudge towards getting calls in their favor had nothing to do with it. Pretending Rutherford is above any gamesmanship and had only altruistic intentions with that statement seems more than a little bit naive.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He was asked a question about Crosby taking excessive abuse during the conference finals. Responding by bringing up Kuhnhackl would have been a total non sequitur.

It would be like if I asked you about teams beating up on Sam Gagner in April, and you responded with "Well let me tell you what happened to Hartnell in February". People would have thought Rutherford was drunk or senile if he had started babbling like that. He answered the question he was asked.

It's amazing that by giving a direct and honest answer that ought to be reflexively supported by 100% of hockey fans regardless of team bias, he is still being painted as a conspirator acting in bad faith and looking for "disproportionate benefits".

4 pages later and you're still discrediting most of the posters in this thread by treating this like a binary when you can think both things very clearly and easily. Especially when you follow it up with "well everybody does it." Not sure how many logical fallacies you want to throw out there, and using all variety of boldface, caps, italics to scream at everyone doesn't make it any more true.

He was asked and answered a question, and that's fine. The timing and situation are also very convenient for his thoughts.

And it is, unequivocally, a conversation worth having...More than that. It needs to happen. But not to overshadow the SCF. Tabling this for a week doesn't mean it's not important to probably literally every hockey fan.

 

[vwg*]

Kunitz crosschecks Subban in the head. I'm sure we'll hear how concerned JR is about Subban after the game.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Kunitz crosschecks Subban in the head. I'm sure we'll hear how concerned JR is about Subban after the game.

Noce gamesmanship there. Not sure why you're complaining about a strong hockey play.

 

[tarheelhockey]

4 pages later and you're still discrediting most of the posters in this thread by treating this like a binary when you can think both things very clearly and easily. Especially when you follow it up with "well everybody does it." Not sure how many logical fallacies you want to throw out there, and using all variety of boldface, caps, italics to scream at everyone doesn't make it any more true.

Speaking of logical fallacies, this:

He was asked and answered a question, and that's fine. The timing and situation are also very convenient for his thoughts.

is an excellent example of an ad hominem fallacy. The timing and situation bear no relevance to the validity of Rutherford's statements. Attacking the messenger is of no use other than to draw attention away from the message.

Also, for about the 20th time, Rutherford didn't bring this up. THN was writing an article on the topic regardless, because it's an issue of obvious importance to the health of the game. Rutherford made a direct, honest, accurate assessment of the situation. Saying he should have "tabled the issue" for a week implies that he was the one pushing the issue in the first place, which is not true.

^ And yes, I will continue to use whatever font varieties are necessary to underscore that point, until it sinks in that the "timing" argument is completely invalid.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Speaking of logical fallacies, this:



is an excellent example of an ad hominem fallacy. The timing and situation bear no relevance to the validity of Rutherford's statements. Attacking the messenger is of no use other than to draw attention away from the message.

Also, for about the 20th time, Rutherford didn't bring this up. THN was writing an article on the topic regardless, because it's an issue of obvious importance to the health of the game. Rutherford made a direct, honest, accurate assessment of the situation. Saying he should have "tabled the issue" for a week implies that he was the one pushing the issue in the first place, which is not true.

^ And yes, I will continue to use whatever font varieties are necessary to underscore that point, until it sinks in that the "timing" argument is completely invalid.

Can you resurrect Wing Dings for your next post?

 

[clefty]

Everyone agrees that the obstruction, dirty play and dismissive attitude towards player safety are out of hand. Everyone. But I guess it doesn't count unless the 'right' person calls it out.

Perhaps someone can point out who that person is. Maybe explain why they're silent while you're at it.

 

[Blender]

He's not wrong, but he's also a massive hypocrite just like Mario was when he complained about cheap shots against his stars while playing Matt Cooke every night.

 

[MarkStone]

Yup, but only as a response to the BS the Sens were pulling. If they weren't acting like low-rent dirtbags I would've never held that sentiment.

Your avatar choice seems to suggest that you have an affinity for cheap shot artists even outside of the particular situation I brought up.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He's not wrong, but he's also a massive hypocrite just like Mario was when he complained about cheap shots against his stars while playing Matt Cooke every night.

Yeah, I remember when Mario complained about this exact topic. He was dismissed as a whiner who just wanted an advantage with the refs during the playoffs while trying to win a 2nd Cup in a row.

That was in 1992. 25 years of declining quality later, the conversation hasn't changed a bit.

 

[Blender]

Yeah, I remember when Mario complained about this exact topic. He was dismissed as a whiner who just wanted an advantage with the refs during the playoffs while trying to win a 2nd Cup in a row.

That was in 1992. 25 years of declining quality later, the conversation hasn't changed a bit.

He made a complaint a lot more recently than 1992. Try 2011.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spo...-nhl-on-islanders-suspensions/article1905376/

Complaining about the Islanders being a goon team while icing the 2nd biggest goon team in the league. There is a pattern of this type of hypocrisy from this organization.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Speaking of logical fallacies, this:



is an excellent example of an ad hominem fallacy. The timing and situation bear no relevance to the validity of Rutherford's statements. Attacking the messenger is of no use other than to draw attention away from the message.

Also, for about the 20th time, Rutherford didn't bring this up. THN was writing an article on the topic regardless, because it's an issue of obvious importance to the health of the game. Rutherford made a direct, honest, accurate assessment of the situation. Saying he should have "tabled the issue" for a week implies that he was the one pushing the issue in the first place, which is not true.

^ And yes, I will continue to use whatever font varieties are necessary to underscore that point, until it sinks in that the "timing" argument is completely invalid.

1. Nice sidestep. Take the critique. It's not a binary, stop treating it like one.

2. It's not ad homenim. I was actually agreeing with you. But you're posting so defensively you can't even realize it.

3. To be extremely clear, my big qualm beyond the message vs. messenger is that he doesn't say HOW the league can fix it, only that they SHOULD, and that he's going to take matters into their own hands until they do. Character, timing, whatever else is pretty irrelevant when he admits "well, everyone else is doing it, so I will too." Yeah, that sounds really productive.

Again, I haven't seen anyone disagree with his actual problem with the league, but his response to it is ridiculous, and no matter how much you want to go and say people are demonizing him for it, your quote about "People are faster to shout "hypocrite!" than they are to do the hard work of changing things" is applicable to JR here. That's literally what he's saying--nothing productive about how to change, only that **** it, we're going to do it too. We're going to yell and scream until someone else fixes it but we're not going to tell you how 'fixed' should look. Passes the buck. Sure, he made a 'direct, honest, accurate' assessment of the league, then spat on it.