Rumor: Russian players in Ottawa Senators, is it real?

[The Expert]

So you acknowledge that those factors are part of the reason why Ottawa is not inclined to select russians in the draft anymore?

Yes, and it's not the first time I've said so in this thread. A lot of people (not saying you) seem to be trying to make it out to be a xenophobic thing to help their argument but it's nothing like that. My argument from the beginning is that those reasons lead to decisions like preferring Rundblad over Tarasenko. No doubt it's a risk as a small market team.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes, and it's not the first time I've said so in this thread. A lot of people (not saying you) seem to be trying to make it out to be a xenophobic thing to help their argument but it's nothing like that. My argument from the beginning is that those reasons lead to decisions like preferring Rundblad over Tarasenko. No doubt it's a risk as a small market team.

Ok seems that we have some kind of consensus. Too risky for the Sens to draft a russian high, particularly in the 1st round. I wouldn't mind a russian drafted in the 1st round if he was already in the CHL, or in the later rounds if he has unknown boom potential...

We talk a lot about russians but we haven't been lucky with Swedes either : Mattias Karlsson, Wikstrand, Sorensen,...

 

[The Expert]

Ok seems that we have some kind of consensus. Too risky for the Sens to draft a russian high, particularly in the 1st round. I wouldn't mind a russian drafted in the 1st round if he was already in the CHL, or in the later rounds if he has unknown boom potential...

See, I'd be alright with a Russian picked in the first round from Russia in some cases. I agree it's a big risk but sometimes you have to take those risks. We're not gonna get the big UFA ever, can make it even more important to get an impact player early in the draft. Definitely some major cons to this strategy but that's life.

We talk a lot about russians but we haven't been lucky with Swedes either : Mattias Karlsson, Wikstrand, Sorensen,...

Can add Andre Pettersson to that as well. I don't hate Ottawa's drafting the last 10 years and I don't love it. Pretty ambivalent.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Signing and trading for Russians already in the NHL is kinda (see: completely) irrelevant to the discussion about the Sens' recent refusal to draft Russians out of Russia. A Russian playing in the CHL is not drafted out of Russia.

The only thing clear is that in 11 straight drafts the Sens haven't selected a single player out of Russia. They also never signed one, like Chicago with Panarin or Toronto with Zaitsev. Nobody has said anything about rumours and suppositions, we're sticking to facts.

If you think a concern of Russians playing in Russia refusing to come over, refusing a demotion to the AHL, or using the KHL as leverage during negotiations had absolutely nothing to do with that... I've got a bridge to sell you.

The lack of an Agreement between Russia ice hockey since 2004, currently the KHL since 2007 and the NHL definitely effects the risk of drafting Russian players for all NHL teams. How well you can assess and mitigate that risk is also a factor. For some teams its just not worth the risk. We can't be sure what any team will do in any given draft based on the information they have to make decisions. For example if Malkin or Ovechkin is the prospect in question... the decision may be different for teams usually not willing to accept as much risk.

 

[Bileur]

I don't get why people are getting so defensive. I don't think anyone suggested the sens were racist or xenophobic.

And signed two.

Clearly the players nationality is secondary to the likelyhood that player will help the team.

Any argument in this thread is about drafting russians not signing or trading for them. Indeed, earlier, I specifically mentioned Volchenkov and Gonchar being liked.

That being said Volchenkov was loved here by the fan base and Gonchar was appreciated.

It's kinda funny that we have people saying until we draft a player, they will continue to believe the rumours and supposition that we are unwilling to draft russians, but they are unwilling to let rumours from fairly well renown sources suggesting us trying to make a move to draft a russian change that belief.

What's funny is you characterizing facts as "rumours and supposition" to suit your position. It's simply a fact that we have not drafted a Russian since Bashkirov and a Russian playing in Russia since 2005.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007328.html

Apparently some will choose to believe the rumour that fits your existing belief regardless of when facts (signed russians Kovalev and Gonchar, and traded for Russian Filatov, brought russian prospects in for on ice sessions prior to draft) combined with rumours (tried to trade up for Sergachev) suggest that there is no unwillingness to bring russians into the fold when they think the player can help the team.

Again, you're moving the goal posts to suit your argument when the topic of argument is whether the Senators are willing to draft a Russian.

You're basing your belief that the sens will draft a Russian on the senators bringing guys in for workouts (could be genuine interest, or could be due dilligence or could be a smokescreen) and rumours that the sens tried to move up.

Meanwhile, here's what Bryan Murray apparently said in 2011:

“The KHL has been the main reason,†Murray said. “The top guys who have come over in the past – (Alex) Ovechkin, (Igor) Larionov, (Sergei) Fedorov — come over here and are very happy and are very important players.

“But the next level of player, they won’t stay. They’re unhappy. They won’t take the time to develop and therefore, we’ve said if we can’t get a top guy you might as well take an American or Canadian.

http://thesportsdaily.com/the-6th-sens/bryan-murray-talks-russians/

Quite similar to:

When there are Russian guys, particularly those still in Russia, on the board who are worthy of the sens pick the sens seem to prefer similar prospects from elsewhere.

When I said:

You guys can have your opinions, I see it as true until it isn't anymore.

That was what I was talking about. That we prefer NA players over russians.

Maybe I went too far in suggesting we wouldn't draft any Russians. I'm sure if Ovy 2.0 came around and we had the first pick we'd take him, but I really believe we won't take the average guy when there's a similar canadian or american on the board.

 

[BonkTastic]

I don't think it's crazy or inacurate to say that we flat out don't take Russians in late rounds. Sure, it seems like we wanted Sergachev early this year, but we didn't get him. There wasn't a sniff that we wanted anyone out of Russia after Sergachev (not like that kind of info leaks out much, but you really can only go with the info you have), and we haven't taken any in a decade+.

Sounds to me like we're willing to use high picks on Russians when they are high skill guys that are harder to come by, who are already established in and have already made the commitment to coming to North America pre-draft (like Sergachev was with Windsor), but we aren't going to be drafting Russians with mid-late picks barring some exceptional circumstances.

Maybe this trend changes with Dorion at the helm instead of Murray, but it is what it is. The precedent is pretty clear, and hey, maybe the precedent changes, but until then it seems as though we've got a draft plan that does not involve scouting Russia all that much. It's fairly obvious to me that our org would much rather take NCAA kids and scandanavians with our late picks and sit on them for 4 years to both let them develop and delay having to make a decision on signing them or not.

Far be it from me to try and guess as to our motives behind the reasons we draft the way we do, but it's not hard to read the tea leaves to figure out what our general draft philosophies are.

 

[Micklebot]

I don't get why people are getting so defensive. I don't think anyone suggested the sens were racist or xenophobic.



Any argument in this thread is about drafting russians not signing or trading for them. Indeed, earlier, I specifically mentioned Volchenkov and Gonchar being liked.





What's funny is you characterizing facts as "rumours and supposition" to suit your position. It's simply a fact that we have not drafted a Russian since Bashkirov and a Russian playing in Russia since 2005.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007328.html



Again, you're moving the goal posts to suit your argument when the topic of argument is whether the Senators are willing to draft a Russian.

You're basing your belief that the sens will draft a Russian on the senators bringing guys in for workouts (could be genuine interest, or could be due dilligence or could be a smokescreen) and rumours that the sens tried to move up.

Meanwhile, here's what Bryan Murray apparently said in 2011:



http://thesportsdaily.com/the-6th-sens/bryan-murray-talks-russians/

Quite similar to:



When I said:



That was what I was talking about. That we prefer NA players over russians.

Maybe I went too far in suggesting we wouldn't draft any Russians. I'm sure if Ovy 2.0 came around and we had the first pick we'd take him, but I really believe we won't take the average guy when there's a similar canadian or american on the board.

Yes, it's a fact we haven't drafted a Russian. It's rumour and supposition as to their motivations for not doing so. For all you know, we always liked somebody else better, based entirely on their Hockey abilities. If you want to buy in to one side or the other, that's fine, just don't expect others to treat it as fact.

I don't doubt that the KHL has an impact on Ottawa (and many if not every other team's) willingness to draft Russians, though I suspect it's far more of a consideration in the later rounds. To my knowledge, we don't have a heavy scouting presence in Russia, so that's likely the biggest factor, though you could certainly suggest the decision not to invest in scouting that region stems from their reluctance to draft from there (chicken or the egg situation really).

As to the argument being about drafting, and not trading or signing Russians, the point is to establish that quite clearly it's not a xenophobic thing. It's a risk management decision. Once you accept that it's just risk/reward management, it frankly becomes absurd to believe in absolutes.

 

[Bileur]

It's rumour and supposition as to their motivations for not doing so.

What rumour and supposition have I brought up?

For all you know, we always liked somebody else better, based entirely on their Hockey abilities.

If we liked someone else better and that player was available we'd have drafted them.

If you want to buy in to one side or the other, that's fine, just don't expect others to treat it as fact.

I just expect people to treat facts as facts. Heck, I also mentioned people can believe what they want to believe, clearly indicating I don't care what they chose to buy in. You're fighting a fight that isn't there.

I don't doubt that the KHL has an impact on Ottawa (and many if not every other team's) willingness to draft Russians, though I suspect it's far more of a consideration in the later rounds. To my knowledge, we don't have a heavy scouting presence in Russia, so that's likely the biggest factor, though you could certainly suggest the decision not to invest in scouting that region stems from their reluctance to draft from there (chicken or the egg situation really).

I posted a quote from the former GM. I hope you don't doubt it. I think it's pretty clear given that quote that, like Bonk said above, unless the Russian in question is a rare player preferably one who is established in north america, we're not taking them.

Of course that strategic decision will lead to not investing scouting resources in Russia. In this case, it's pretty clear that the chicken (deciding not to draft any but the most elite Russians) came before the egg (not investing scouting resources in Russia).

As to the argument being about drafting, and not trading or signing Russians, the point is to establish that quite clearly it's not a xenophobic thing.

I never suggested it was a xenophobic thing. Indeed, I suggested it wasn't (mentioning Volchenkov and Gonchar being liked) and later explicitly stated it wasn't.

It's a risk management decision. Once you accept that it's just risk/reward management, it frankly becomes absurd to believe in absolutes.

I don't think it's absurd at all to say the Sens won't do something the Sens former GM has said they won't do until proven otherwise.

 

[Micklebot]

What rumour and supposition have I brought up?



If we liked someone else better and that player was available we'd have drafted them.



I just expect people to treat facts as facts. Heck, I also mentioned people can believe what they want to believe, clearly indicating I don't care what they chose to buy in. You're fighting a fight that isn't there.




I posted a quote from the former GM. I hope you don't doubt it. I think it's pretty clear given that quote that, like Bonk said above, unless the Russian in question is a rare player preferably one who is established in north america, we're not taking them.

Of course that strategic decision will lead to not investing scouting resources in Russia. In this case, it's pretty clear that the chicken (deciding not to draft any but the most elite Russians) came before the egg (not investing scouting resources in Russia).



I never suggested it was a xenophobic thing. Indeed, I suggested it wasn't (mentioning Volchenkov and Gonchar being liked) and later explicitly stated it wasn't.



I don't think it's absurd at all to say the Sens won't do something the Sens former GM has said they won't do until proven otherwise.

Look, it's pretty simple, you've said we won't draft Russians as though it was fact. That in itself is supposition. You don't have to reference it, because you are the one promulgating it.

The thread itself is just about Russians on the team, not specific to drafting them, though the conversation is going that way. The lack of drafting Russians in the past speaks only to our evaluation of the available prospects in the past, not to our willingness to draft a specific prospect. There are limited instances where a Russian was the BPA (general consensus anyways) and was available; I can't think of any outside of Tarasenko myself, and even then, he was drafted around where he was ranked, but it's quite possible we had Rundblad ranked around the guys getting drafted 10th. We don't know.

As for the xenophobic thing, that's more related to other posters that mention Melnyk, it's been brought up a couple times in this thread which is why I included in my post, but the point remains, if you don't think it's a xenophobic thing, then it becomes risk management. If it's risk management, then it's always possible that we'd take a Russian. There certainly is more risk associated with drafting Russians that aren't in that upper tier (hence Murray's comments about going with a NA player), every single poster is likely to admit that, as would every GM I imagine, but to suggest we outright won't draft Russian is hardly fact, it's entirely speculation and dismissing the interest Ottawa has shown in Russian prospects in the past (Burmistrov, Svechnikov, and Sergachev) as potentially just a smokescreen is what I'm getting at when I say that some just pick and choose what rumours they want to believe.

 

[The Expert]

As to the argument being about drafting, and not trading or signing Russians, the point is to establish that quite clearly it's not a xenophobic thing.

Which would make sense if even one person had suggested it was anything remotely like that. Nobody has done that, which is why your post seems to be causing a lot of confusion. Can't take anyone seriously who thinks Melnyk had a say in Murray's drafting. He's far too hands-on of an owner for any of our liking, but that should be common sense.

Look, it's pretty simple, you've said we won't draft Russians as though it was fact. That in itself is supposition.

There certainly is more risk associated with drafting Russians that aren't in that upper tier (hence Murray's comments about going with a NA player), every single poster is likely to admit that, as would every GM I imagine, but to suggest we outright won't draft Russian is hardly fact, it's entirely speculation and dismissing the interest Ottawa has shown in Russian prospects in the past (Burmistrov, Svechnikov, and Sergachev) as potentially just a smokescreen is what I'm getting at when I say that some just pick and choose what rumours they want to believe.

Unless you happen to have a job with the team that I'm unaware of, you seem to be choosing to believe what you want as well, taking alleged interest in the players you mentioned as confirmation the Sens would have picked them.

 

[arglebargle]

TBH I think it's mostly that Russian players would prefer to play in Russia than it is North American teams not wanting them. It takes several years of development and sustained performance to get a big contract in North America, while in Russia many of these prospects get pretty good money right away while not having move to a foreign country.

I cite as evidence the fact that most of these kids bail after being sent to the AHL. If I'm faced with earning 60k in some mid-sized town in North America for 3 years for an outside chance at a decent NHL contract and earning $2 million right now, I'm taking the sure thing. It just makes financial sense for these guys.

The Senators also have been on a tight budget and appear to have focused their scouting in Eastern North America and Sweden for the last half decade or so.

 

[Micklebot]

Which would make sense if even one person had suggested it was anything remotely like that. Nobody has done that, which is why your post seems to be causing a lot of confusion. Can't take anyone seriously who thinks Melnyk had a say in Murray's drafting. He's far too hands-on of an owner for any of our liking, but that should be common sense.

Well, except these guys,

The Russians think that the owner of the Ottawa Senators hates Russian people

He most likely does.

Has Ukrainian ties.

Maybe but that was before the invasion.

Melnyk has criticized the Russians for invading Ukraine.

So, yeah, if there's a confusion as to why I mentioned it, that's on you, not me.

Unless you happen to have a job with the team that I'm unaware of, you seem to be choosing to believe what you want as well, taking alleged interest in the players you mentioned as confirmation the Sens would have picked them.

Ok, so I guess you're of the opinion that the burden of proof is on the people saying there is no evidence to support that they would have? Seems backwards to me; prove innocence instead of guilt right? When's the last time we drafted a Slovenian? I guess we won't draft them either?

I mean, one of the bits of evidence used to "prove" we wouldn't take a Russian was Murray saying that if you can't get a top guy, might as well take an American or Canadian, which seems like evidence to the contrary, as he's indirectly saying if given the chance, they'll take high end Russians. This, in turn, is supported by the teams perceived interest in Sergachev, Burmistrov, Svechnickov, ect.

But actually, I'm really just arguing that you can't say we wouldn't as fact. It's possible we outright refuse to draft Russians due to the possibility that they might defect to the KHL, but to me that seems like a pretty damn extreme drafting strategy. Personally, my opinion is that it's more likely that take into consideration the risk of defecting to the KHL and go from there. When all things are equal, the additional risk of the player defecting means we pick a non-Russian. The risk of defecting appears to be perceived as higher for lower end players, so it very well may get to the point of "won't choose a Russian" for late round picks, but by that point the gap between options likely isn't as great.

 

[Zorf]

But actually, I'm really just arguing that you can't say we wouldn't as fact. It's possible we outright refuse to draft Russians due to the possibility that they might defect to the KHL, but to me that seems like a pretty damn extreme drafting strategy. Personally, my opinion is that it's more likely that take into consideration the risk of defecting to the KHL and go from there. When all things are equal, the additional risk of the player defecting means we pick a non-Russian. The risk of defecting appears to be perceived as higher for lower end players, so it very well may get to the point of "won't choose a Russian" for late round picks, but by that point the gap between options likely isn't as great.

This.

I get that this is topic worth discussing, but on the flip side, how many other teams generally avoid Russian players with late picks in the draft? I would hazard to guess that a lot of teams are more likely to avoid Russian players with later picks for the same reasons. It just so happens that our former GM came out and said that it is something they do for late round picks