Rumor: Rumors and Proposals: The Frenzy continues: Still looking for one more RHD

[CornKicker]

Agents aren't dumb. If his client gets the same money at 4.5 in Florida as 5.5 in Canada, why would he take 4.5 in Canada???

??? confused, he gets paid USD and taxed the same regardless of where he signs

that being said i take Larsson over Demers 10/10

same with hamonic

Larsson>Hamonic

 

[oXo Cube]

"When I look at the way he plays I don't see a fit with the system they currently play. He plays very aggressively." Woodley on Gustavsson

Was I the only one who didn't like this signing at all?

I think Brossoit might beat him out in training camp.

I think the whole point of the signing is that the Oilers don't care if Brossoit does exactly that.

 

[Mr Positive]

You are using a single moment in time as a reference by suggesting that the only option was a bad deal or no deal.
I am suggesting that a bad deal would not have been the only available option moving forward.
I am suggesting that it would have been smarter to not make a bad deal.

The cost was just too high and now I wonder how that will impact the team moving forward.

I think this team had diminishing returns though. We simply have too many of these soft skilled forwards, and not enough offensive zone minutes for them all. This principle has already impacted the trade value of our players. Taylor Hall could have been a 40 goal scorer on a more balanced team by now, but he hasn't done that, and he won't be valued as if he had. Bob MacKenzie did mention that there was some feeling from GMs that the value of our assets was diminishing because of the losing atmosphere around the team.

So yeah, we needed to be desperate here, and we were never going to get a good trade. Larsson has a great draft pedigree and was showing to start to match it. I think you might be underestimating what those players are worth. I can't imagine what deal you are imagining when you say we should have waited for a good trade. That is the defining feature of the Tambelini era. He didn't make many moves either, but he won most of the trades he was involved in. He also didn't grow the team that much.

 

[Young Lions*]

I don't even know what to say. Out of 7 top 10 picks we have and eberle, hall is the only one that is worth something?

Hall is the only one who was proven. McDavid will be great regardless. Everything else is still an unknown.

I believe hall is elite, but he isn't the lynchpin u make him out to be. Other players can be put in his role and succeed. The loss in hall will be neglible for offence. basically what I'm saying is hall was given more opportunity then our other players and the gap between them isn't what u suggest.

Then we're never going to agree because Hall's results were head and shoulders above everyone else's, plus he made his teammates better as a rule. That's the reason I consider him a driver as opposed to a complimentary player type like Eberle.

 

[guymez]

We're not going to agree on this because we can always spin it the other way - i.e. waiting could have resulted in a lost opportunity to get even this value if the team continued to lose.

Like I said I still don't like the trade but I can completely understand the risk management behind it. I hate the optics and I HATE the fact that 10 years of prior ****** management basically forced Chia's hand like this (and I'm sure he hates it too - did he really want to trade Hall for Larsson straight up? Probably not in an ideal world).

But it's a pragmatically painful trade.

But this isnt spin...they simply didnt get enough value for Hall....thats the reality.

Thats my issue with this and any other bad deal that may happen.

I am all about the best possible opportunity for this team to get better. Deals like Larsson for Hall do not accomplish that.
If Chiarelli makes another deal like that (trading more value for less value with some potential) do you really believe that he is maximizing the teams ability to become a contender?

If not then why is this deal considered progress if that template isnt part of building a contending team?

 

[Soli]

Yep, pretty much. No one wanted to believe it, and he has a complete ***hole way of doing it. But he basically spelled it out.

I thought this included the "full circle" prospect and another asset?

 

[oStealthKiller*]

??? confused, he gets paid USD and taxed the same regardless of where he signs

that being said i take Larsson over Demers 10/10

same with hamonic

Larsson>Hamonic

He doesn't get taxed the same. He makes more based off Florida state taxes vs anywhere in Canada's taxes

We used to enjoy this advantage but the idealists put the ndp in power

 

[Cloned]

Except the improvement I expected wasn't predicated on a single player. You're arguing with a straw man of your own making here.



No, you're peddling a false choice and throwing in a bunch of other stuff to boot. For example, I said nothing of a winning season. I believe that some minor tweaks and good health would have led to an improvement. That's all.

You're still being disingenuous. You were originally responding to my concern that another losing season would further degrade trade values. That response implied that my concern wasn't warranted because, in your mind, natural growth and minor changes would have been enough to prevent this losing season. No leaps of logic yet right?

Then later you respond to somebody else's post about Hall's ability (which I have no quarrel with) with an assertion that no one single player would have made a difference to this roster because it was THAT bad. (Or at least that was the implication).

How can you reconcile the two POVs? If the roster was THAT bad (and over 6 sustained years of awfulness like you said), what kind of logic would lead you to believe that the "organic growth and minor changes" you mentioned originally would be enough to prevent another losing season and further degradation of trade values?

That's the same conundrum Chiarelli faced. I don't envy his position. It was an impossible one.

 

[CornKicker]

He doesn't get taxed the same. He makes more based off Florida state taxes vs anywhere in Canada's taxes

We used to enjoy this advantage but the idealists put the ndp in power

a canadian citizen pays canadian tax regardless of where he plays

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

But this isnt spin...they simply didnt get enough value for Hall....thats the reality.

Thats my issue with this and any other bad deal that may happen.

I am all about the best possible opportunity for this team to get better. Deals like Larsson for Hall do not accomplish that.
If Chiarelli makes another deal like that (trading more value for less value with some potential) do you really believe that he is maximizing the teams ability to become a contender?

If not then why is this deal considered progress if that template isnt part of building a contending team?

If the defense sucks the team won't improve. It's really that simple guymez. Doesn't matter how many flashy forwards you have.

I did a little research and the Oilers won 12 games against the west last year. 12 out of 50. That's pretty awful. I think they might've had 2 regulation wins against non-Canadian West teams. Bunch of OT/SO wins. That's not good enough.

 

[nabob]

I don't understand this. We've seen what as is produces. Another **** season isn't worth slightly better value to me, and that's if that even happens. The opposite could happen and we may have been looking at hall+first for Larsson. Oh bad value again? Wait anothe year. Suddenly that's 2 years down the drain and hall is 2 from ufa.

So frustrating as well that not a single poster who is so dead set against the deal and has posted 100 times about how we should have done something different or traded someone else can actually suggest an option that would have made the club better. Not a single opinion of a deal that was actually available the would have got us a top line RHD. Hamonic wasn't an option for NYI. Doing nothing and hoping hadn't worked either.

If people are going to continually cry about how bad the trade was they should at least be able to suggest one realistic possibility that is better.

 

[guymez]

If the defense sucks the team won't improve. It's really that simple guymez. Doesn't matter how many flashy forwards you have.

I did a little research and the Oilers won 12 games against the west last year. 12 out of 50. That's pretty awful. I think they might've had 2 regulation wins against non-Canadian West teams. Bunch of OT/SO wins. That's not good enough.

Its not that simple and I ask the question again of you....

If Chiarelli makes another deal like the Hall/Larsson deal (trading more value for less value with some potential) do you really believe that he is maximizing the teams ability to become a contender?

If not then why is this deal considered progress if that template isnt part of building a contending team?

 

[McXLNC97]

He doesn't get taxed the same. He makes more based off Florida state taxes vs anywhere in Canada's taxes

We used to enjoy this advantage but the idealists put the ndp in power

Yeah but if they are paid in US dollars and play in Canada, when you convert that to Canadian $$, that becomes an extra 30%. So that 4.5m US contract becomes 5.85m Canadian. Also, playing in Alberta, they don't have to deal with the sales tax as the other provinces do.

 

[Cloned]

But this isnt spin...they simply didnt get enough value for Hall....thats the reality.

Thats my issue with this and any other bad deal that may happen.

I am all about the best possible opportunity for this team to get better. Deals like Larsson for Hall do not accomplish that.
If Chiarelli makes another deal like that (trading more value for less value with some potential) do you really believe that he is maximizing the teams ability to become a contender?

If not then why is this deal considered progress if that template isnt part of building a contending team?

My concern is that if they waited Hall's value would have continued to drop and then you're looking at an even worse situation of diminishing returns year by year.

Look at it this way... if Larsson isn't full value for Hall NOW, what would it have been next year after another losing season?

That was the risk management decision Chiarelli faced. It wasn't enviable. Impossible, even. I think he did the best he could given the circumstances.

 

[oStealthKiller*]

Hall is the only one who was proven. McDavid will be great regardless. Everything else is still an unknown.



Then we're never going to agree because Hall's results were head and shoulders above everyone else's, plus he made his teammates better as a rule. That's the reason I consider him a driver as opposed to a complimentary player type like Eberle.

He is a driver and again opportunity, playing with hall meant u were playing Ina good opportunity most likely better then if u were not with hall. Easy to see why ppl do better with him. Second, no one was given halls opportunity. He was the number one go to guy. Eberle and nuge both had their best season when they got that push. Hall had that push the entire time but those brief moments.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

They didnt have to move forward with Hall long term. Dealing Hall wasnt the issue.

I am suggesting that they needed to get more value for a player of Halls caliber so that they had a better opportunity to improve this team moving forward.

McDavid

 

[McJadeddog]

Maybe. But Larsson wasn't a quality player until he got partnered with Green a couple seasons ago. We were already fooled once. Lets just pray it hasn't happened again.

Yup, Larsson just screams fayne 2.0 to me

 

[oStealthKiller*]

Yeah but if they are paid in US dollars and play in Canada, when you convert that to Canadian $$, that becomes an extra 30%. So that 4.5m US contract becomes 5.85m Canadian. Also, playing in Alberta, they don't have to deal with the sales tax as the other provinces do.

I'm not here to give a lesson on conversion prices and how something can be worth 1$ us and 1.25$ CDs at the same time

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Its not that simple and I ask the question again of you....

If Chiarelli makes another deal like the Hall/Larsson deal (trading more value for less value with some potential) do you really believe that he is maximizing the teams ability to become a contender?

If not then why is this deal considered progress if that template isnt part of building a contending team?

If you wait for the perfect deal it's not going to come. At some point this team has to make progress and if that means a little destruction then that's fine. I fully believe an improved defense will push the team forward more than just adding Pulu and calling it a day like yesteryears.

You weren't likely to get a better deal than Larsson. Isles said no to Hamonic for Hall. Defensemen are just that valuable. If you keep waiting you're going to be left with nothing.

It's either Larsson or nothing. Which option is better?

 

[nabob]

a canadian citizen pays canadian tax regardless of where he plays

So you're saying all the charts that showed how much Stamkos would make in different cities were lies? The same rules apply to Demers, except the pie is only half the size

 

[Faelko]

So getting back to trade rumours.....

That Valentine guy says we are offering Pouliot, Yak and 1st for Barrie but Avs aren't biting.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Yup, Larsson just screams fayne 2.0 to me

that would be extremely disappointing.

from what i've seen Larsson has real skill. I never saw anything of the sort with Fayne.

 

[Celleyna]

Why are we discussing the Hall trade in here AGAIN. There is a whole thread for that kind of talk. Can we just stick to rumours and proposals here? Where are the mods?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

So getting back to trade rumours.....

That Valentine guy says we are offering Pouliot, Yak and 1st for Barrie but Avs aren't biting.

I'm shocked our junk is amounting to nothing. Shocked I tell you.

 

[McFlyingV]

5m+, he sign for 4.5m, easily could of had him less than 5m.

Yeah maybe look at the tax differences in Florida compared to Edmonton. He wasn't signing for under 5 here.