Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
To each his own. Seen his whole career, and he's always seemed like an unaccomplished Giguere crossed with a superior Fleury to me. Gargantuan gear. Rabidly defensive teams. Huge-profile market inflating his awards voting. Popular in part due to off-ice factors (personality and looks).
Frankly, just by eye test, he's no better than say Carey Price, Cam Ward, Ryan Miller or Ilya Bryzgalov. None of them top-60 goalies.
Giguere and Fleury don't play a similar way, so I got confused right off the hop there.
Giguere had no reflexes and poor rebound control. Easy to beat up high. Not terrific lateral movement or puck tracking. Horrendous puckhandler. Many negatives, thus is lack of adaptability. Obviously didn't fair so hot when his scenery changed. Just a product of "garbage in, garbage out" goaltending development. Not a surprise that he only really worked in one place ever after being a first round pick, 3 organizations over 7 years and no organization could make heads or tails of him. Not a comparable to Lundqvist, who burst onto the scene and has done terrific everywhere he's played.
I dislike the "blocker" goalies as much as anyone. But Lundqvist is really quite good. He does have pretty big equipment, I'll grant you that.
I must admit, I'm floored by the last line. So...the list is based on talent level? If so, we need to start over. Most goalies today don't look too terribly different compared to yesteryear. But saying a goalie plays similar to Carey Price (a youngster, as far as this board is concerned) and because Carey Price isn't a top-60 goalie, then neither is Lundqvist...? I don't follow the logic.
I guess by that extension. The sky is virtually limitless. Patrick Roy was a butterfly goalie and so is Steve Mason...I see Roy at #1, but I don't see Mason...did we mess up?
The identification of talent, as I've said in probably every thread, is important to distinguish "system goalies" from "goalies that happen to play in a system"
Dismissing a guy like Martin Brodeur shows a lack of ability to recognize ability, even nuance. Dismissing a guy like Chris Osgood (who I'm surprised didn't climb into this portion of the proceedings) shows an ability to distinguish skill from system. Osgood, a squeaky wheel behind Detroit's conquests...
Being behind a defensive system doesn't preclude you from being good. Similarly, being behind a defensive system (and therefore posting stats that show accomplishment) doesn't make you good. It matters.
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@qpq - I'm not even saying that he belongs right now necessarily. I took exception to him being several tiers down from the "big guys". It seemed like a needless trashing and I don't want him to get just brushed over on that accord. He's very much in the discussion before the list is complete is all I'm saying. He doesn't have to be #1 right now.
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Next post - goalies don't win Hart trophies really. I'm not sure why that was even said, to be honest. It simply doesn't apply today.
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Decent group here. Richter doesn’t belong. But I’m glad we’re not talking about Vernon or Osgood, that’s all I’ll say.
Amen.
Pretty much take Vanbiesbrouck’s best 7 seasons (the ones where he was top-6 in Vezina voting) and that’s Lundqvist’s 7 year career right now. Then give Beezer the edge for having 6-7 more seasons as a solid, at least average, starter. That’s the way I see it right now.
Wouldn't disagree with that really.
Tim Thomas is the best by a fair margin, in my opinion. Lunqvist is more consistent because he has less of a high-water-mark to live up to.
Tim Thomas has been the most consistent goalie in the league for the last 7 years?!?!? He's only been a starter for 5! And only 2 of those years were really anything noteworthy, with one other decent one in there. All of which correlating directly to the acquisitions of Claude Julien and Zdeno Chara.
The words "Thomas" and "consistency" do not jive at all...by a fair margin.
Saying Thomas by any margin for consistency is just providing false information.
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Lundqvist was getting considered every season.
Yes, this matters a lot more when you're not talking about a 6 or 12 team league. I think we're so used to thinking, "ok, anything below 3rd is pretty much useless to us..." but really we note a guy being in the top 33% or 50% of the league with those O6 guys. 3rd in a 30-team league (not even including that each team carries and uses 2 'tenders) is top 10%. 6th is top 20%. And the current NHL has much more in the way of moving parts being that it's a fully-integrated league with unrestricted free agency.
Flash in the pans can happen as a result as well...Roman Cechmanek, with more "elite" NHL regular seasons than Tim Thomas, is not on the list and wouldn't be on it if we got to 75 I don't think. Probably further. Why? One up-and-down playoffs that mirrors Thomas' career perfectly? That's the big clincher? That's what separates 40 from 140? 240? whatever...it's virtually unjustifiable.
The more modern you get, the more the position evolves, the more the talent level evens out, the more you need to rely on consistency. I know some people hate that word here and rely on peak and prime for everything, but I believe that you have to go substance over flash here...if two out of 15? 20? non-consecutive seasons is enough to be better than 7 out of 7 consecutive seasons of elite-ness, even if the elite-ness varies a bit, I just can't see how those 2 seasons have enough in them to make up the ground...it just doesn't make sense...it's confusing sentiment really...is it designed to bewilder?
If Lundqvist's seasons of .912, .916 and .917 count as 'great', then Thomas has SIX 'great' seasons. If Lundqvist's poor playoff showings in half of his appearances count as 'great', then Thomas is superhuman.
This unfounded pro-Lundqvist bias and adoration is slowly getting beyond ridiculous. A goalie with minimal accomplishments and poor playoff record is being trumpeted as 'great' and elevated above far superior goalies. Insanity.
Belligerent. Taking the raw save pct. out of context like that and making those comments is designed to confuse and bewilder voters...it should not be tolerated.
Lundqvist - by the metrics we have been using throughout - is one of the most accomplished goalies left on the board.