Round 2, Vote 7 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
• Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 7 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, Dec 29. You can send votes to TheDevilMadeMe beginning on December 27.

Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume that we never received it

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 13 candidates this time.

Vote 6 will be for places 25 through 28 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Tom Barrasso
Gerry Cheevers
Alec Connell
Grant Fuhr
Ed Giacomin
Hap Holmes
Curtis Joseph
Harry Lumley
Chuck Rayner
Tim Thomas
John Vanbiesbrouck
Rogie Vachon
Lorne "Gump" Worsley

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

 

[seventieslord]

Ed Giacomin doesn't look so bad all of a sudden.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ed Giacomin doesn't look so bad all of a sudden.

He's still unlikely to be in my top 8. I mean, we still have a glut of goalies from the 70s on our list and very few from mid-80s on. Billy Smith is our 5th most recent goalie right now.

 

[seventieslord]

He's still unlikely to be in my top 8

He's unlikely to be in my top-4, I'll say that much.

 

[amnesiac]

He's still unlikely to be in my top 8. I mean, we still have a glut of goalies from the 70s on our list and very few from mid-80s on. Billy Smith is our 5th most recent goalie right now.

more all-star team selections than any other up there if Im not mistaken

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well, things just got a lot more modern for sure.

In the process of researching a couple of other goalies (I believe it was Lumley and Worters) I found that they both gave Chuck Rayner high praise as a mentor and goalie coach of sorts. Something to consider beyond his tangible stats and awards.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All Star Teams

I'm including the unofficial GM-voted teams from the late 20s when available. 3rd Team All Stars are unofficial but based off the same pool of votes that determine 1st and 2nd Team.

Alec Connell

• 3rd Team All Star (1928) behind Worters and Hainsworth - the only year before 1931 we have records past 1st
• 3rd Team All Star (1935) behind Lorne Chabot and Tiny Thompson

Chuck Rayner

• 3rd Team All Star (1942) behind Frank Brimsek and Turk Broda
• Missed 1943, 1944, and 1945 due to the War
• 2nd Team All Star (1949) behind Bill Durnan, ahead of Turk Broda
• 2nd Team All Star (1950) behind Bill Durnan, ahead of Turk Broda
• 2nd Team All Star (1951) behind Terry Sawchuk, ahead of Al Rollins

Rayner was 4th in both Hart and All Star voting in 1947

Harry Lumley

• 3rd Team All Star (1946) behind Bill Durnan and Frank Brimsek
• 1st Team All Star (1954) ahead of Terry Sawchuk and Al Rollins
• 1st Team All Star (1955) ahead of Terry Sawchuk and Jacques Plante

Lumley was 4th in 1947 and 5th in 1948 (out of 6 goalies).

Gump Worsley

• 3rd Team All Star (1956) behind Glenn Hall and Jacques Plante
• 3rd Team All Star (1961) behind Johnny Bower and Glenn Hall
• 2nd Team All Star (1966) behind Glenn Hall, ahead of Roger Crozier
• 1st Team All Star (1968) ahead of Ed Giacomin and Johnny Bower

Worsely was a also a distant 4th in 1963

Ed Giacomin

• 1st Team All Star (1967) ahead of Glenn Hall and Denis DeJordy
• 2nd Team All Star (1968) behind Gump Worsley, ahead of Johnny Bower
• 2nd Team All Star (1969) behind Glenn Hall, ahead of Jacques Plante
• 2nd Team All Star (1970) behind Tony Esposito, ahead of Jacques Plante
• 1st Team All Star (1971) ahead of Tony Esposito and Jacques Plante

Giacomin finished 6th in 1973 - behind his teammate Gilles Villemure who was 3rd.

Gerry Cheevers
Never finished top 4 in NHL All-Star voting.
His best is 5th in 1969. He also finished 6th in 1970, 1977, and 1979.

In the WHA:

• 1972-73 WHA All-Star Team (1st)
• 1973-74 WHA All-Star Team (2nd)
• 1974-75 WHA All-Star Team (2nd)

Rogie Vachon

• 2nd Team All Star (1975) behind Bernie Parent, ahead of Gary Smith
• 2nd Team All Star (1977) behind Ken Dryden, ahead of Chico Resch

Vachon finished 4th in 1974 and 1978.

Grant Fuhr

• 2nd Team All Star (1982) behind Billy Smith, over Rick Wamsley
• 3rd Team All Star (1986) behind John Vanbiesbrouck and Bob Froese
• 3rd Team All Star (1987) behind Ron Hextall and Mike Liut
• 1st Team All Star (1988) ahead of Patrick Roy and Tom Barrasso

Fuhr was 6th in both Vezina and All-Star voting in 1996.

Tom Barrasso

• 1st Team All Star (1984) ahead of Rejean Lemelin and Pat Riggin
• 2nd Team All Star (1985) behind Pelle Lindbergh, ahead of Rejean Lemelin
• 3rd Team All Star (1988) behind Grant Fuhr and Patrick Roy
• 2nd Team All Star (1993) behind Ed Belfour, ahead of Felix Potvin

Barrasso was 4th in All Star voting in 1998 behind Hasek, Brodeur, and Belfour!

John Vanbiesbrouck

• 1st Team All Star (1986) ahead of Bob Froese and Grant Fuhr
• 2nd Team All Star (1994) behind Dominik Hasek, ahead of Patrick Roy

Curtis Joseph
Never finished top 3 in All Star voting.
Finished 4th in 1993 and 1999, and 5th in 2000.

Tim Thomas

• 1st Team All Star (2009) ahead of Steve Mason and Roberto Luongo
• 1st Team All Star (2011) ahead of Pekka Rinne and Roberto Luongo

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, things just got a lot more modern for sure.

In the process of researching a couple of other goalies (I believe it was Lumley and Worters) I found that they both gave Chuck Rayner high praise as a mentor and goalie coach of sorts. Something to consider beyond his tangible stats and awards.

I was about to mention Rayner. For the record, I don't have the All-Star teams of every goalie on hand; I do it fresh for each new goalie who comes up. And Rayner's record is quite impressive.

I'm wondering - does anything really separate Rayner and Worsley, other than the fact that one was lucky enough to be traded from the hapless Rangers to the Habs?

Obviously there are other things to consider, but on the face of it, Rayner seems to have a better record than Lumley.

Count me as in agreement with you MXD: Rayner should have been up for vote already and I'm as much at fault as anyone.

 

[seventieslord]

more all-star team selections than any other up there if Im not mistaken

Yet, his all-star selections are probably more questionable than anyone else's.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ed Giacomin doesn't look so bad all of a sudden.

You ain't kiddin'...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yet, his all-star selections are probably more questionable than anyone else's.

How much more? I get that his All-Star teams are overstated...but we have War goalies in already, we have depression-era goalies in, we have pre-NHL goalies in...at what point do we say "enough is enough" with this "no competition" stuff in the 1960's and 70's? It's really worse than Barrasso's (1st team at least), Thomas' and Cheevers? I think we're getting a little carried away with that, no?

I don't want to be an All-Star Team counter but I want to explore this a little more...

This is the first time where I've seen a goalie (goalies?) come up that look like he/they don't belong on a list of greats...should be interesting...

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Chuck Rayner interests me most of the new goalies. He had two 2nd Team placements between Vezina-winning Durnan and another one behind peak Sawchuk in '51. He sort of feels like the Worters of the late 40s/early 50s, though he did lead his 4th place Rangers to the '50 Stanley Cup.

I'd really like to get a sense for how he compares to Lumley who coincidentally was the goalie for Detroit when they won in 1950.

 

[seventieslord]

How much more? I get that his All-Star teams are overstated...but we have War goalies in already, we have depression-era goalies in, we have pre-NHL goalies in...at what point do we say "enough is enough" with this "no competition" stuff in the 1960's and 70's? It's really worse than Barrasso's (1st team at least), Thomas' and Cheevers? I think we're getting a little carried away with that, no?

I don't want to be an All-Star Team counter but I want to explore this a little more...

This is the first time where I've seen a goalie (goalies?) come up that look like he/they don't belong on a list of greats...should be interesting...

Well, it's not just that competition was "weak" and that he was the best of it. I don't even think it was that weak. It's that I am not really sure he was even the best of that competition. his personal stats weren't outstanding, he wasn't that great compared to backups, and it seemed like he was earning the spots by default by being a GP leader.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Another thing I noticed when compiling All Star records - Barrasso, Beezer, and Cujo all have one thing in common - all of them did much better in Vezina voting than in All-Star voting.

Speculation: The GMs who vote on the Vezina prefer guys with track records, while the media who vote for the All-Star like fresh stories.

Barrasso Vezina record: 1st (1984), 2nd (1985), 2nd (1988), 2nd (1993), 3rd (1998), 7th (1989) 9th (1986)
Barrasso All-Star record: 1st (1984), 2nd (1985), 2nd (1993), 3rd (1988), 4th (1998), 8th (1986)

Vanbiesbrouck Vezina record: 1st (1986), 2nd (1994), 4th (1989), 6th (1992), 6th (1987), 6th (1988), 6th (1995), 7th (1996), 8th (1997)
Vanbiesbrouck All-Star record: 1st (1986), 2nd (1994), 4th (1997), 9th (1988)

Joseph Vezina record: 2nd (1999), 3rd (1993), 3rd (2000), 4th (1994), 5th (1997), 8th (2001)
Joseph All-Star record: 4th (1993), 4th (1999), 5th (2000), 8th (1992)

min 2 votes required for an All-Star ranking.

 

[BM67]

Well, things just got a lot more modern for sure.

In the process of researching a couple of other goalies (I believe it was Lumley and Worters) I found that they both gave Chuck Rayner high praise as a mentor and goalie coach of sorts. Something to consider beyond his tangible stats and awards.

Bower and Worsley were the Rangers goalies mentored by Rayner. Bower credits him with teaching him the pokecheck.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Tom Barrasso

• 1st Team All Star (1984) ahead of Rejean Lemelin and Pat Riggin
• 2nd Team All Star (1985) behind Pelle Lindbergh, ahead of Rejean Lemelin
• 3rd Team All Star (1988) behind Grant Fuhr and Patrick Roy
• 2nd Team All Star (1993) behind Ed Belfour, ahead of Felix Potvin

Barrasso was 4th in All Star voting in 1998 behind Hasek, Brodeur, and Belfour!

It should be noted that on two occasions the GM's who vote for the Vezina thought higher of Barrasso than the media who vote for the AS teams...

In 1988 Barrasso finished 2nd in Vezina voting, quite a bit ahead of Roy, who only managed to finish 8th. Tom Barrasso 22 (2-3-3); Patrick Roy 8 (0-2-2)

In 1998 Barrasso finished 3rd in Vezina voting, one spot ahead of Belfour. Tom Barrasso 26 (0-7-5); Ed Belfour 10 (0-1-7)



EDIT: Beat by TDMM again!

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Another thing I noticed when compiling All Star records - Barrasso, Beezer, and Cujo all have one thing in common - all of them did much better in Vezina voting than in All-Star voting.

Speculation: The GMs who vote on the Vezina prefer guys with track records, while the media who vote for the All-Star like fresh stories.

As far as I've always been concerned, the awards (Vezina, Norris) almost have to be earned on a reputation/performance combination - attempt to remove the "team/fluke year effect" when assessing who the "best goalie(/defenseman)" is? - while All-star nominations have always been for recognizing the best season at any position (however that may be judged, and perhaps less effort deciding whether it was a "fluke" or not), regardless of what prevailing opinion of their "ranking" vs others in their position across the league might be.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Joseph Vezina record: 2nd (1999)

Joseph actually had the most 1st Place votes in 1998-99, which is why I always find it so funny when people talk about that season as though its greatness was a product of the Toronto media.

 

[tarheelhockey]

How much more? I get that his All-Star teams are overstated...but we have War goalies in already, we have depression-era goalies in, we have pre-NHL goalies in...at what point do we say "enough is enough" with this "no competition" stuff in the 1960's and 70's? It's really worse than Barrasso's (1st team at least), Thomas' and Cheevers? I think we're getting a little carried away with that, no?

I have to agree that at this point, competition is seeming a bit less important when ranking modern goalies. Guys like Giacomin, Fuhr and Barrasso might not have peaked during golden years, but they surely faced world class competition nonetheless. It's going to take some serious convincing to make me believe that a 1AS in 1967 or 1988 isn't worth a lot in the context of being compared to second-tier goalies from the 1910s or 1930s.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Bower and Worsley were the Rangers goalies mentored by Rayner. Bower credits him with teaching him the pokecheck.

Thanks for that. And LOL at me for confusing Worsley with Worters.

So yeah, the elite goalies who crossed through the Rangers organization during Rayner's time there seemed to hold him in very high esteem as a guy who could teach them a thing or two.

 

[seventieslord]

I have to agree that at this point, competition is seeming a bit less important when ranking modern goalies. Guys like Giacomin, Fuhr and Barrasso might not have peaked during golden years, but they surely faced world class competition nonetheless. It's going to take some serious convincing to make me believe that a 1AS in 1967 or 1988 isn't worth a lot in the context of being compared to second-tier goalies from the 1910s or 1930s.

well, yeah. there is no conceivable way someone should be considering placing Alec Connell, for example, ahead of Giacomin. I'll give him that.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vezina Trophy Shares

player|times|share
Martin Brodeur|15|5.4072
Dominik Hasek|11|4.7591
Patrick Roy|17|4.6216
Ed Belfour|11|2.5044
Tom Barrasso |7|1.9833
Grant Fuhr |8|1.5901
Roberto Luongo|7|1.5600
Tim Thomas |3|1.5533
John Vanbiesbrouck |9|1.5329
Henrik Lundqvist|7|1.4933
Miikka Kiprusoff|7|1.4333
Evgeni Nabokov|6|1.2267
Ron Hextall|5|1.0359
Curtis Joseph |8|1.0247
Pete Peeters|3|1.0190

IMO, goalies with 1 or 2 really strong seasons (namely Thomas and Peeters) are overrated by this metric.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Barrasso in the Playoffs

Here's some info on Tom Barrasso in the playoffs. He seems to clearly be the second most important player (behind Mario) to Pittsburgh's back-to-back Cups. There's also some info on the 93 and 94 playoffs...

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - May 27, 1991 (after the first Cup victory)
Barrasso played Game 6 against the Minnesota North Stars Saturday night as if it were his last game. He took one for the team - a shot of pain-killer to the groin - then stood up to the North Stars' Neal Broten, who ran him in the opening seconds, stood up to 39 shots, stood up to his critics who long tormented him by saying he can't win the big games.

For a guy who was a questionable starter - the missed the final two periods of Game 5 Thursday night with a pulled groin muscle - Barrasso was at the top of the Penguins' long list of heroes in their 8-0 Cup-clinching victory.

"There was no question in my mind I wasn't going to miss this game," Barrasso said. "I was here to play. I had Dr. [Chip] Burke give me a shot to numb up my groin. I felt nothing the entire game. I've got the whole summer to recuperate."
...
Barrasso had an answer for everything the North Stars tried.
...
"The shutout is really irrelevant," Barrasso said. "The Cup is all that matters."
...
The shutout, the first in the finals since 1986, was fairly indicative of Barrasso's play in the postseason. He finishes with a 12-7 record and had the best goals-against average (2.60) and save percentage (.919) of the playoff goaltenders. He easily could have won the Conn Smythe MVP award if Mario Lemieux had not played so spectacularly in the final three games against Minnesota.
...
Barrasso certainly has Samuelsson's endorsement. "With this team, you start with Mario Lemieux. He's half of the team. Then, you add Tom Barrasso. After that, anybody could go out there and win."

St. Louis Post-Dispatch - June 3, 1992

CHICAGO - Pittsburgh star Mario Lemieux gazed at the Conn Smythe Trophy sitting on a table beside him Monday night at Chicago Stadium and wondered whether he deserved it.

He already had one ''Connie Smythe,'' as he called it, in his trophy case at home. He felt that Penguins goalie Tom Barrasso might have been a better choice this year for the award given to the most valuable player of the Stanley Cup playoffs. ''I thought it was Tommy all the way,'' Lemieux said. ''He was superb the last three games of the Washington series, when we came back from a 3-1 deficit. ''He played unbelievable when we swept Boston. This should have gone to him, that's for sure.''

Instead, the big guy, Super Mario, collected his second successive Conn Smythe to go with the Penguins' second successive Stanley Cup. Pittsburgh wrapped up their Cup defense Monday night with a 6-5 victory over the Chicago Blackhawks to complete a four-game sweep. Barrasso, 27, finished a distant second in the MVP voting, but he said he didn't feel the least bit slighted. To him, it was a team accomplishment.

http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/63/feature6.asp

There was a time a couple of years ago when I claimed Scotty Bowman's time as the premiere coach in hockey was at an end because of the way he single-handedly crushed the Penguins' hopes at three-peating as Stanley Cup Champs. Amongst the rationales I had for this somewhat unorthodox claim was the way he ran goaltender Tom Barrasso into the ground by having him start the last third of the season in quest of a relatively meaningless unbeaten streak record. Sure enough, Barrasso went cold in the second round as the Penguins lost to the lowly Islanders, and Bowman had allowed Ken Wregget to practically atrophy by not playing him.

http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/LCS02.txt

1994 - PENGUINS DISAPPOINT TWO YEARS IN A ROW

[long list of Penguins who played poorly in the Washington series]...

As shown above, a lot of changes have to be made if the Penguins want to get back to the playoffs and be effective. General Manager Craig Patrick has a big task ahead of him. He has to find a way to replace an aging defensive corp to help out Tom Barrasso (who had an excellent playoff series) in net and create a balanced offense that can be more efficient in the playoffs. Good luck, Mr. Patrick. You're going to need it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here's some info on Tom Barrasso in the playoffs. He seems to clearly be the second most important player (behind Mario) to Pittsburgh's back-to-back Cups. There's also some info on the 93 and 94 playoffs...




St. Louis Post-Dispatch - June 3, 1992



http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/63/feature6.asp


http://www.lcshockey.com/issues/LCS02.txt

The 1991 and 1992 Penguins (backstopped by Barrasso) allowed the 1st and 2nd most shots against per game in the playoffs by any Cup winning team of the modern era, right?