Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Wingers)

[JA]

In that case, I think that Bure in 9 and Iginla in 10 among "modern" right wingers seems perfectly reasonable as of 5 years ago. As is St. Louis not being ranked. On this forum, I remember Iginla and Bure were getting fringe support on Top 120 players of all-time lists in 2009 (everyone participating in that never-completed project submitted lists of 120 players).

(Though just as a nitpick, I absolutely hate that everything before 1967 is called "Original 6" when there were more than 6 teams before 1943).

Thanks for posting it. I honestly did not know this book existed. The CBC panel is obviously not as prestigious as one including NHL GMs and coaches, but it's still pretty solid, I would imagine. At least among players they saw play (I'd imagine their "modern" list is a lot better than their "Original 6" list).

You're very welcome, TDMM.

I think the rankings were done in 2010, though. The book makes many references to player achievements that occurred in 2010, and the book was not released until January 2011 despite the 2010 copyright. This book must have been completed in late 2010, as all of the award winners from the 2009-10 season are listed in the back of the book as well.

http://www.renaud-bray.com/books_product.aspx?id=1117069&def=Hockey+night+in+Canada%27s+best+of+best%2CMORRISON%2C+SCOTT%2C9781554703166

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm only posting a source. I invite you to interpret it as you feel. You have the names of the selection committee available to you.

That book sounds familiar. Didn't they have some really controversial selection on their RW list?

And obviously that book was published before two of St. Louis' three best seasons - and it was at least 300 points ago for Iginla. Anything more recent?

 

[quoipourquoi]

OH!

That was the book that rated Teemu Selanne over Jaromir Jagr, wasn't it?!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

OH!

That was the book that rated Teemu Selanne over Jaromir Jagr, wasn't it?!

You're right: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=850037

Guy Lafleur
Mike Bossy
Jari Kurri
Brett Hull
Teemu Selanne
Jaromir Jagr
Yvan Cournoyer
Glenn Anderson
Pavel Bure
Jarome Iginla

I now remember everyone ridiculing the list, and it never being brought up again.

And yes, that above list is supposed to be in order. I guess broadcasters alone make a terrible list.

 

[Sentinel]

You're right: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=850037



I now remember everyone ridiculing the list, and it never being brought up again.

And yes, that above list is supposed to be in order. I guess broadcasters alone make a terrible list.

Swtich Selanne with Jagr, and bring in Makarov and Kharlamov for Anderson and Iginla, and the list isn't so bad.

 

[MXD]

Voted.
Finally ended up ranking the top 3 as this
Blake
St-Louis
Kurri

In spite of Blake being probably the least talked about player in this round. Not sure if its a causal effect. But there was at least a good case made that I had slightly overrated St-Louis coming in.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I realize things can change quickly when talking about current events, but it's worth noting that since leaving Tampa:

Martin St. Louis: 58gp, 13-21-34
Steven Stamkos: 39gp, 23-14-37

Both players were around PPG last season until the trade.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I realize things can change quickly when talking about current events, but it's worth noting that since leaving Tampa:

Martin St. Louis: 58gp, 13-21-34
Steven Stamkos: 39gp, 23-14-37

Both players were around PPG last season until the trade.

Are you including playoff numbers for St. Louis there?

 

[MXD]

I realize things can change quickly when talking about current events, but it's worth noting that since leaving Tampa:

Martin St. Louis: 58gp, 13-21-34
Steven Stamkos: 39gp, 23-14-37

Both players were around PPG last season until the trade.

Let's split St-Louis games in 3 parts.

Regular season 13-14 : Joins a new team, lack of production unsustainable (2.7 shooting percentage).

Playoffs : Well, its playoffs. Scoring varies. St-Louis outplays two very relevant players (Iginla and Stamkos). I wish to point out that my "outplays" comment relates a lot to their respective rounds against the Habs.

Regular season, 14-15 : St-Louis ends up playing Center (!) for a good chunk of the beginning of the year. Got moved back to wing a few games ago.

St-Louis is also 39.

 

[MXD]

Are you including playoff numbers for St. Louis there?

Yep. See breakdown below.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Are you including playoff numbers for St. Louis there?

Yes. If you don't count playoffs, it's like this:

Martin St. Louis: 33gp, 5-14-19
Steven Stamkos: 35gp, 21-12-33

Nothing really changes, as Stamkos scored around 1 PPG and St. Louis around 0.6 PPG in both the regular season and the playoffs.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Let's split St-Louis games in 3 parts.

Regular season 13-14 : Joins a new team, lack of production unsustainable (2.7 shooting percentage).

Playoffs : Well, its playoffs. Scoring varies. St-Louis outplays two very relevant players (Iginla and Stamkos). I wish to point out that my "outplays" comment relates a lot to their respective rounds against the Habs.

Regular season, 14-15 : St-Louis ends up playing Center (!) for a good chunk of the beginning of the year. Got moved back to wing a few games ago.

St-Louis is also 39.

But if he had stayed in Tampa rather than demanding that trade, there's a very high likelihood that he would still be scoring around a point per game, right?

IE, there's a strong implication that St. Louis' exceptional late-career numbers have a lot to do with playing next to a superstar goal scorer.

Also:

Regular season 13-14 : Joins a new team, lack of production unsustainable (2.7 shooting percentage).

Even if we grant him a more ordinary 12-15%, he's still only scoring at about .7 points per game. That's still a 30% drop from his production with Stamkos.

 

[BraveCanadian]

IE, there's a strong implication that St. Louis' exceptional late-career numbers have a lot to do with playing next to a superstar goal scorer.

They obviously complemented each other very well but I don't know how you're going to untangle how much of the change is being separated from his trigger man and how much is St. Louis being traded and being, frankly, old for a scoring forward now.

 

[MXD]

But if he had stayed in Tampa rather than demanding that trade, there's a very high likelihood that he would still be scoring around a point per game, right?

IE, there's a strong implication that St. Louis' exceptional late-career numbers have a lot to do with playing next to a superstar goal scorer.

Also:



Even if we grant him a more ordinary 12-15%, he's still only scoring at about .7 points per game. That's still a 30% drop from his production with Stamkos.

St-Louis was over a PPG with the Bolts when Stamkos was out. That is, between november 12th (Stamkos injured on 11th) and March 5th (traded to NYR).

 

[tarheelhockey]

They obviously complemented each other very well but I don't know how you're going to untangle how much of the change is being separated from his trigger man and how much is St. Louis being traded and being, frankly, old for a scoring forward now.

He's old, but then again his late-career performance is a big part of his argument. As is the fact that he's been the wingman for a number of big scoring seasons. It's worth noting that, at least over the past 8 months, separation from Stamkos has brought his scoring down significantly.

St-Louis was over a PPG with the Bolts when Stamkos was out. That is, between november 12th (Stamkos injured on 11th) and March 5th (traded to NYR).

Good point.

 

[Captain Bowie]

He's old, but then again his late-career performance is a big part of his argument. As is the fact that he's been the wingman for a number of big scoring seasons. It's worth noting that, at least over the past 8 months, separation from Stamkos has brought his scoring down significantly.



Good point.

And though a small sample size, Stamkos' goal scoring hasn't been affected much, if at all.

Though I think St. Louis should get credit for scoring and keeping a young Lightning team in the playoffs while Stamkos was out.

 

[quoipourquoi]

St-Louis was over a PPG with the Bolts when Stamkos was out. That is, between november 12th (Stamkos injured on 11th) and March 5th (traded to NYR).

Yeah, despite not really doing much since the trade, that stretch of games when Stamkos was out is pretty validating for St. Louis: 45 GP, 22 Goals, 45 Points. Those are solid numbers in a year in which 82 points was good enough for 5th in scoring.

Playing with Stamkos from 2010-2013 was certainly beneficial, but down the stretch in 2011 and 2013 when it looked like Stamkos would be competing for the Hart and Art Ross, St. Louis was the one who would pull ahead and steal the recognition. Seems to me like both players would have been fine on their own.

Coming to New York resulted in St. Louis getting his time cut by about three minutes per game - almost exclusively from even-strength play.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Voting period opened yesterday and will end at 9pm EST today.


Only 11 votes in so far. All have been sent confirmations.

 

[Theokritos]

wouldn't a 40-12 line not winning Soviet player of the year draw some questions or need to understand context when the forward who did win had a 17-10 line?

Soviet assist records of the 1970s aren't very telling is factual context. I don't understand the voting record, so let's assume it was corrupted out of some political motivation is unfounded speculation.

is it not fair to say that part of the reverence Firsov is held in is due to Russia domination and breaking through as the #1 international team in the 60's?

Firsov didn't play an outstanding role in the Soviet breakthrough to international domination. The team won four World Championships in a row (1963-1966) and who got international recognition? Ragulin (All-Star 1963, 64, 65, 66; Best Defenceman 66), Mayorov (Best Forward 64), Yakushev (All-Star 64), Starshinov (Best Forward 65), Almetov (All-Star 65), Loktev (All-Star 65, 66; Best Forward 66), Alexandrov (All-Star 66). No mention of Firsov, and still he made the Soviet All-Star Team in 1963-1964 and 1965-1966.

could there not be slightly different criteria in the voting for soviet hockey player of the year and the Hart trophy?

If so, I still don't understand your point.

we all know that there was less freedom in russia in the early 70's than there is now right?

Sure, but that the lack of freedom extended to hockey award voting is something we absolutely don't know and in fact have no reason to assume.

Surely Firsov having a 17-10 line behind Kharlamov at 40-12 and Boris Mikhailov at 32-(Perhaps you could provide us with his assists totals that year) shouldn't be viewed as better than Bure's top seasons in the NHL, let's say 94 (when he is playing a regular shift with Gino Odjick) or 99 or 01 in Florida were his supporting help makes Iginlia's help look awesome in comparison right?

I'm not saying it should be viewed as better, but I'm saying it shouldn't automatically be viewed as worse based on Soviet League stats. (Mikhailov had 15 assists BTW.)

when in fact Russia continued to dominate the WHC in 90 and 91.

The Soviet Union finished 3rd in 1991, I wouldn't exactly call that domination. Besides, they had six players on the roster who didn't play in the domestic league anymore (Makarov, Bykov, Fetisov, Kasatonov, Gusarov and Myshkin), so the result is not simply a testimony of what the Soviet league players were able to achieve. That said, I agree that the league was still pretty strong and what Bure achieved there is impressive.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

re: MSL scoring less than he did last year in TB aside, hard not to notice that fat lazy rick nash has blown away the rest of the league this season except in the two weeks when vigneault, who hates offense, separated him from MSL.


so now it's brad richards (conn smythe), lecavalier (rocket), stamkos (rockets), rick nash (still currently leading the league in goals)...

 

[Hardyvan123]

voted, forgot about the deadline, it looks like others did as well, perhaps due to the Buremainia eh?

coming into my busy season here with work, i will make a mental note of the deadlines on my calender

 

[tarheelhockey]

so now it's brad richards (conn smythe), lecavalier (rocket), stamkos (rockets), rick nash (still currently leading the league in goals)...

The point though is that all of those players had noteworthy success away from him as well.

Compared to, say Bentley or Iginla, St. Louis has had some absurdly strong linemate support, so their raw stats have to be viewed with that in mind.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The point though is that all of those players had noteworthy success away from him as well.

Did Lecavalier? I mean, he had 200 points in the two seasons he played with St. Louis, finishing 3rd and 6th in the league, but the most he had outside of that was 78 (17th), 75 (39th), and 70 (26th).

When Vinny Lecavalier recalls the two seasons he spent with the Lightning playing almost exclusively on a line with Marty St. Louis, he can't help but smile.

"For the regular season, for me, it was probably the most fun I've had," Lecavalier said of the 2006-07 and 2007-08 seasons. "Every night was fun."

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's kind of inconsiderate to the person taking votes for voters to keep missing the deadlines. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular (I've been a little late myself once or twice), but the person taking votes is a volunteer, who schedules the time to tally the votes around his real-life schedue.

Now HT will probably have to extend voting which throws his whole schedule off, and might have to result in more rounds that go on too long like this one.

 

[Captain Bowie]

It's kind of inconsiderate to the person taking votes for voters to keep missing the deadlines. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular (I've been a little late myself once or twice), but the person taking votes is a volunteer, who schedules the time to tally the votes around his real-life schedue.

Now HT will probably have to extend voting which throws his whole schedule off, and might have to result in more rounds that go on too long like this one.

More time to talk about Bure!