Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am a career guy and I'm asking the question of peak guys in here, also a top 8 finish in a 6 team league is around the same range as a top 25-30 finish in a 30 team league.

I'm pretty sure that you're the only one here who still believes that the size of the league has this much of a drastic effect on placements.

Pilot's offensive jump went up with the young emerging Hull and Mikita there is no way around that really. In some sense it's similar to Coffey's absolute peak in early Edmonton even though he played on other great teams as well.

Hull and Mikita weren't the only ones to emerge though - Pilote did too!

 

[Hardyvan123]

I'm pretty sure that you're the only one here who still believes that the size of the league has this much of a drastic effect on placements.



Hull and Mikita weren't the only ones to emerge though - Pilote did too!

Yes I'm aware that many treat a top 5 or 10 in a 6 or 30 team league way too closely but the 2 situations are quite different in that a 6 team league there are so many minutes per team to go around, especially on the power play and the same thing applies to a 30 team league.

sure the old adage is that the best are always the best but 8th is certainly getting into an area where variance can come into play.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes I'm aware that many treat a top 5 or 10 in a 6 or 30 team league way too closely but the 2 situations are quite different in that a 6 team league there are so many minutes per team to go around, especially on the power play and the same thing applies to a 30 team league.

sure the old adage is that the best are always the best but 8th is certainly getting into an area where variance can come into play.

I agree that an 8th place finish in a 6 team league isnt as impressive as it is in a 30 team era where random variation can come into play (plus the influx of non-Canadian talent). But I don't think the difference is nearly as big as you seem to.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

More on Cleghorn

I'm not sure if any of this will affect anyone's votes, but I think it's worth posted more on this colorful player.

Much of this is pulled from the ATD profiles done by Veliciraptor and seventieslord.

Sprague Cleghorn, who has been elected captain of Montreal Wanderers this season, is perhaps the best all-around defence player in the NHA. He can hold down either the line or defence, is fast, a fine stick-handler, and carries a grand shot. He led all defence men in scoring last season. His great forte is intercepting a pass or busting a rush and getting off to a flying break for the other end of the rink. He stands alone in this stunt. Sprague has a head as well as hands and feet.

It should be noted that of the Cleghorn/Boucher/Cameron trio, Cleghorn had the best offensive stats in the NHA, but the worst in the NHL, which is why it's hard to figure out who was the best offensively.

In the 1910s and 1920s when Cleghorn played, hockey was a much more violent game than it would later become. Physically brutalizing the opponent was considered a legitimate defensive tactic:

As well known as he was for his speculative rushes on offense, Cleghorn was lauded for his play even when he didn't have the puck. Many of the game's top forwards were less inclined to venture near a net guarded by a tough defender. But Cleghorn wasn't a mere bully; he was respected for exceptional defensive play that was considered to be at the same level as such stars as Eddie Gerard and George Boucher.

He was sensational when Ottawa won the cup in 1920... He is one of the greatest but roughest players the game has known...Cleghorn was one of the most aggressive players the game has ever known and to get by him, opponents had to face up to bodychecks, crosschecks, elbows, buttends and fists. His rushing was equally aggressive and whoever might relieve him of the puck would not come by it easily.

he could score goals at one moment, and at the next send someone off on a stretcher with his stick work.

However, Cleghorn's had a temper and was notorious for resorting to violence for selfish reasons:

But his on ice greatness has been forever overshadowed by his on ice antics. He played the game with vigilante vigor
...
Sprague was never popular in Ottawa, even when he played there. In one game against Montreal Cleghorn viciously attacked Newsy Lalonde with his stick, reportedly drawing the ire of police although no charges were ever drawn.

Whenever he played against former Ottawa teammates, Cleghonr often instigated brawls and cheap shots as if he seemed to have a personal vendetta against certain players. In fact, in one playoff game, after Cleghorn viciously cross checked Lionel Hitchmen, his own team fined and suspended him for the rest of the playoffs. The decision was even handed down before the NHL had time to rule on it.
...
Cleghorn was very upset with Ottawa for letting him go, and was determined to get revenge the only way he knew how. In one of the first clashes between Cleghorn's new team versus his old, reports claimed prior to the game that Sprague would settle the score once and for all with Ottawa for dropping him after he helped them win the 1920 Stanley Cup. He would go on to viciously injure 4 Senator players - Cy Denneny, Frank Nighbor, Tommy Gorman and Eddie Gerard. Cleghorn's disgraceful conduct in resulted police action and even league movement to ban him from the NHL for life. Reportedly two teams would not agree to the ban.

Despite such actions, Cleghorn continually produced results, including helping the Habs win their first Stanley Cup as a member of the National Hockey League.

After a stint with the Boston Bruins, Cleghorn, once described by an NHL official as "a disgrace," retired in 1928. His numbers were unarguably great - 84 goals and 123 points in 256 games as a defenseman. His PIMs total was 489.

During the 2007 playoffs, when Chris Pronger got himself suspended twice but was probably his team's best player when he was on the ice, Joe Pelletier said it reminded him of Sprague Cleghorn: http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2007/06/chris-pronger-meet-sprague-cleghorn.html

Sprague was viciously protective of his younger brother Odie. The attack on Newsy Lalonde that Pelletier alludes to is because Lalonde collided with Odie:

In 1912, the Montreal Wanderers, with the brothers Cleghorn on the roster, played an exhibition match against the Canadiens in Toronto in which Odie accidentally collided with Newsy Lalonde and both went down dazed. Sprague skated to the scene of the mishap and wrecked havoc with his stick. When it was all over, Lalonde lay unmoving on the ice, bleeding from the nose and head, and the spectators thought he was dead.

C. Michael Hiam, Eddie Shore and That Old-time Hockey, pg 86

Tarheelhockey posted another account of the vicious incident with Lalonde (from Sprague's obituary), this one ended with Sprague also unconscious:

Sprague and Odie, a forward, played with Montreal Wanderers the night that professional hockey was introduced in Toronto at the old Mutual Street Arena in an exhibition game. Newsy Lalonde was playing with the opposing Canadiens.
Tempers flared and Newsy hit Odie, knocking him cold. Sprague hurtled across the rink and engaged Newsy in a gory battle, ending with Sprague unconscious.
Thought He was Dead
“The crowd thought he was dead,” Odie recalled Thursday night, “but he was fine in a little while. They were both arrested but we hired a good lawyer and got them off.”
Said Odie: “He was my brother and I don’t like to boast, but I never saw a tougher or better defenceman than Sprague.”

Interestingly enough, even while Cleghorn was being suspended by his own team's owner, he remained as team captain:

Following the 1921 Cup triumph with Ottawa, Cleghorn returned to Montreal to suit up for the Canadiens. Teamed with Billy Coutu, the Canadiens had what was arguably the most feared defensive tandem in hockey at that time. After he attacked Ottawa defenseman Lionel Hitchman in the 1923 playoffs, Cleghorn was suspended by team owner Leo Dandurand, who described his player's actions as "befitting an animal."

Cleghorn claimed his third Stanley Cup win in 1923-24 when his playing helped Montreal eliminate Vancouver and Calgary from the Pacific league in the playoffs. Cleghorn served as team captain from 1921 to 1925

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I found this amusing blog post where the writer thinks it would be fun to create a "Reverse Masterdon Trophy" for "the individual who best exemplifies the characteristics of selfishness, sore losing and general douchebaggery." He researched several players before deciding to name the trophy the "Sprague Cleghorn Trophy."

He explores Sprague's qualifications and then summarizes them as such:

•Charged with aggravated assault stemming from an on-ice incident. Bad on-ice behaviour. Check.

•Hit wife with his crutches and refused to be transferred to other teams. ********* off of the ice. Check.

•A Hockey Hall of Famer who predates most dirtiest player ever conversations. Check.

Also a more detailed account of Sprague's grudge against Ottawa after they let him go (taken from the book, The Ottawa Senators: The Best Players and the Greatest Games by J. Alexander Poulton):

The 1921-22 regular season ... was a fairly uneventful season for the Senators, except for the brief reunion with Sprague Cleghorn. After the 1921 Cup victory, the Ottawa Senators unceremoniously dropped Cleghorn from their roster, preferring to go with younger talent such as King Clancy. A natural force on the ice, Cleghorn did not have to wait long before being picked up by the Montreal Canadiens where he was teamed up with his brother Odie, but Cleghorn still held a grudge against his former team. Cleghorn declared war on the Senators, and when they met again for the first time on February 1, 1922, he was out for blood.

Cleghorn did little to hide his contempt for his former club after the puck was dropped. He started by viciously checking Senators captain Eddie Gerard and then slashing him on the head, opening up a cut above Gerard's eye that required five stitches to close. A short while later, Cleghorn set his sights on Ottawa's top scorer, Cy Denneny, and gave him a nasty cut above the eye that spurted blood all over the ice. Not yet satisfied, Cleghorn set his sights on the Sens' Frank Nighbor. Cleghorn got his chance when Nighbor had the puck in the corner with his back to the play. Cleghorn rushed into the corner and slammed Nighbor down to the ice, landing on his elbow hard enough that Nighbor couldn't play the rest of the game. Cleghorn had single-handedly removed three of the Senators' best players from the match. Ottawa police on hand that night offered to arrest Cleghorn and make him spend the night in jail for his obvious assault on the Senators players, but the referees persuaded the police to let the NHL handle its own discipline. For his offences, Sprague Cleghorn received a match penalty, a warning from the league president Frank Calder and a $15 fine.

 

[Reds4Life]

Also a more detailed account of Sprague's grudge against Ottawa after they let him go (taken from the book, The Ottawa Senators: The Best Players and the Greatest Games by J. Alexander Poulton):
...

He was clearly very, very insecure.

Anyone who does stuff like that does not deserve to be considered among all-time greats IMHO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I agree that an 8th place finish in a 6 team league isnt as impressive as it is in a 30 team era where random variation can come into play (plus the influx of non-Canadian talent). But I don't think the difference is nearly as big as you seem to.

8th in a 6 team league means a top guy form every team then the next 2 players a direct ratio in a 30 team league would be a 35-45th finish so yes I'm erring on the higher side of 25-30 and its just for comparison purposes only.

Frankly Pilot's 3 Norris trophies have about as much meaning as Bobby Clarke's 3 Hart trophies in terms of how I view them historically. Someone had to win those 3 Norris trophies but they are fairly easier wins than other winners and even guys who never won like Scott Stevens.

As for the possibility of Mikita, Hull and Pilote all benefiting from their playing together it's possible but we had a track record of Pilote before a young Hull and then Mikita emerged on the Black Hawk scene and I'm fairly confident that Hull and Mikita were better player historically and by quite a large margin.

 

[seventieslord]

Who is this Gasby ? I assume you mean Bill Gatsby.If Gatsby doesn't show up in the next group than people have not done their homework.

I found this funny, sorry. You are calling him out for misspelling Gadsby, but so did you.

Gatsby = played by Robert Redford.

IMO, the late original 6 was the most competitive era ever. If you could even make it then you were damn good. If you were one of the best you were damn special.

I agree with this. The 1967 season featured the best "worst" players ever. The baseline skill level needed just to have an nhl job was never higher.

I agree that an 8th place finish in a 6 team league isnt as impressive as it is in a 30 team era where random variation can come into play (plus the influx of non-Canadian talent). But I don't think the difference is nearly as big as you seem to.

Honestly. Does anyone else really think 8th in a 6-team league is only like 40th in a 30-team league??

Nope, Cleghorn didn't dominate scoring. Cameron and Boucher were just as good offensively, with Gerard a bit behind. As you noticed, however, those stats don't include what Cleghorn did before the age of 27.

BTW, Ken Randall often played forward and George Boucher sometimes did (though not when he finished 2nd in league scoring). I don't think I heard of McCaffrey or Fraser, so my guess is they were playing forward those years (someone like seventieslord or Iain Fyffe has a database of roughly who played where when).

Oh come on, you know McCaffrey and Fraser.

Anyway, yeah, you are right, Fraser was a forward for that season only. McCaffrey later moved to D but he was a forward that year. And Boucher played way too much forward in 1922 and 1923 to be fairly counted as a d-man for scoring stats

 

[seventieslord]

He was clearly very, very insecure.

Anyone who does stuff like that does not deserve to be considered among all-time greats IMHO.

LOL!

....oh. you were serious.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Honestly. Does anyone else really think 8th in a 6-team league is only like 40th in a 30-team league??

Or more specifically, would an 8th place finish in 1966-67 be only as good as a 16th place finish in 1967-68? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[pappyline]

I found this funny, sorry. You are calling him out for misspelling Gadsby, but so did you.

Gatsby = played by Robert Redford.

Good catch. That is pretty funny but at least I had the correct number of letters.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Or more specifically, would an 8th place finish in 1966-67 be only as good as a 16th place finish in 1967-68? It doesn't make sense to me.

No the numbers don't work on an exact ratio but and 8th and 8th between 67 and 69 are not the same things at all either.

We always come across this problem when comparing Cups and awards between players because people do direct comps which isn't fair or accurate either and that's before you include new talent streams from the US and Europe.

So when Pilot's 3 straight Norris wins and 8 straight all star team appearances get compared to later players who didn't do as much it does make me wonder.

I wanted to do a more in depth analysis and write ups of a couple of players in this grouping but family commitments and high school football playoffs got in the way. Maybe next round.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think we need to separate Cleghorn's violent vendetta against Ottawa from his performance against everyone else. There's a rough parallel to Clarke and the Soviets; it's a noteworthy incident but it doesn't define his career for ranking purposes. Cleghorn did some pretty bat**** crazy things to Ottawa but there's not much on his record against other teams, besides just being a generally tough customer.

Also, it's worth taking a look at Cleghorn's performance against Ottawa in spite of being ejected repeatedly. The Sens were the class of the league at the time, and beat Montreal 10-0 in their first game after the Cleghorn trade. In the next 7 games, Montreal scored 22 goals -- Cleghorn scored 6 and assisted on 2. Bear in mind this was done from the defense position in an era when assists were hardly recorded, against the best team in the league and in the context of being ejected and arrested. Better than PPG is pretty damn good.

The following season, 22-23, the teams played 8 times and the Habs scored only 10 goals... Cleghorn scored on 4 of them. In 22-23, Cleghorn scored an OT winner, assisted an other game winner, and had a 2-goal game against the Sens. Most of the games he didn't score, they were shut out.

Again, bear in mind that assists were hardly recorded at this time. With modern scorekeeping standards he would surely have picked up more points. Also, I have no information on whether he was suspended for any of these games. One assumes that he didn't complete several of them.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I agree with this. The 1967 season featured the best "worst" players ever. The baseline skill level needed just to have an nhl job was never higher.

Okay I've seen this trotted out by several peopl in different forms and while it's very likely that the 6 team NHL in 67 was "better" than the 6 team league in the late 40's, there is no evidence to suggest that it was any more competitive or had a better baseline skill level than say 2010.

If anything the skill level and pushback that players in the 90's and beyond encountered that we talking about in this thread had more competition and had more difficulty in say running off 8 straight all star appearances than in the late 60's

 

[overpass]

]8th and 8th between 67 and 69 are not the same things at all either.

We always come across this problem when comparing Cups and awards between players because people do direct comps which isn't fair or accurate either

We can look at the actual historical record to evaluate this theory, instead of relying on a theory that twelve teams is twice as good as six teams.

Almost all of the leading scorers and leaders in awards voting in 1968-69 came from the original six teams. Very few players on expansion teams made an impact.

Top 10 in major statistical categories from expansion teams:

Goals
7. Red Berenson
9. Danny Grant
10. Norm Ferguson

Assists
9. Ted Hampson
10. Red Berenson

Points
9. Red Berenson

Top 5 in major awards voting from expansion teams

Hart
4. Red Berenson

Norris
5. Al Arbour

24 of the 30 spots in the top 10 stat categories and 8 of the 10 spots in awards voting came from players on the original six teams. No expansion team players placed in the top 6 in scoring categories or in the top 3 in major awards voting. I'd say a top 10 was pretty close to the same in 1967 and 1969.

And who knows - maybe Red Berenson gets a chance if there wasn't expansion, and in that case the leaderboards in the 6 team league and the 12 team league would be essentially identical.

 

[overpass]

More on Sprague Cleghorn during his Montreal Wanderers tenure.

Montreal Gazette - Nov 13, 1913:

Sprague Cleghorn was the best defence man playing in the National Hockey Association a year ago and has already signed his contract, even at a reduction in salary.

Vancouver Daily Sun, Dec 8, 1917:

It is not so likely that hockey fans will ever see Sprague Cleghorn on skates again. The latest accident to the great hockey player, when he broke his right leg has likely put him on the shelf for good.

There might have been a chance for him to come back if this was his first fracture; unfortunately he broke his left leg nearly two years ago. This left his leg weak and with both limbs affected it is hardly likely that he will ever play pro. hockey again.

(After Cleghorn's first broken leg) His early form was promising and once in a while he turned in a good enough game to warrant recognition. But he never approached the grand form that made him the superman he was in 1915 and 1916.

But, of course, Cleghorn would return from his injuries. He went on to play many more seasons at a high level.

Calgary Daily Herald, Feb 2, 1918:

It is reported that Sprague Cleghorn, once considered the greatest defence man in the game, will rejoin his former team mate Harry Hyland and finish out the season with the Ottawa club in the National Hockey League.

Cleghorn had to recover from major injuries in the middle of his career and adjust his game accordingly.

It seems as if Cleghorn was very highly regarded immediately before the injury, with terms like "superman" and "greatest defence man in the game" being used to describe him.

Sounds like Chris Pronger's career path. Great individual player but no team success, gets injured, recovers, changes teams, goes on to team success elsewhere.

 

[seventieslord]

Okay I've seen this trotted out by several peopl in different forms and while it's very likely that the 6 team NHL in 67 was "better" than the 6 team league in the late 40's, there is no evidence to suggest that it was any more competitive or had a better baseline skill level than say 2010.

If anything the skill level and pushback that players in the 90's and beyond encountered that we talking about in this thread had more competition and had more difficulty in say running off 8 straight all star appearances than in the late 60's

It is common sense. There are about 6x as many jobs in the nhl now, and the number of available players of a certain relative skill level has not increased by a degree anywhere close to that.

Certainly it is closer to 1967 now than it has ever been, but it is obvious that through the 80s and especially 70s the worst players in the nhl were much worse than in the years approaching expansion.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think we need to separate Cleghorn's violent vendetta against Ottawa from his performance against everyone else. There's a rough parallel to Clarke and the Soviets; it's a noteworthy incident but it doesn't define his career for ranking purposes. Cleghorn did some pretty bat**** crazy things to Ottawa but there's not much on his record against other teams, besides just being a generally tough customer.

Also, it's worth taking a look at Cleghorn's performance against Ottawa in spite of being ejected repeatedly. The Sens were the class of the league at the time, and beat Montreal 10-0 in their first game after the Cleghorn trade. In the next 7 games, Montreal scored 22 goals -- Cleghorn scored 6 and assisted on 2. Bear in mind this was done from the defense position in an era when assists were hardly recorded, against the best team in the league and in the context of being ejected and arrested. Better than PPG is pretty damn good.

The following season, 22-23, the teams played 8 times and the Habs scored only 10 goals... Cleghorn scored on 4 of them. In 22-23, Cleghorn scored an OT winner, assisted an other game winner, and had a 2-goal game against the Sens. Most of the games he didn't score, they were shut out.

Again, bear in mind that assists were hardly recorded at this time. With modern scorekeeping standards he would surely have picked up more points. Also, I have no information on whether he was suspended for any of these games. One assumes that he didn't complete several of them.

The attack on Newsy Lalonde after Lalonde hit Odie happened before Cleghorn ever played for the Senators when Lalonde was a member of the Canadiens.

And you have a good point about assists, but we also need to keep in mind that it was the age of the 60 minute players, so everyone's goal totals would look ridiculously high compared to today.

 

[overpass]

Here is a chronicle of the way that teams' fortunes changed when Sprague Cleghorn changed teams.

I have left out the Montreal Wanderers, as their arena burned down after Cleghorn left and they did not play a full season. (Did Cleghorn have an alibi for the night of the fire?)

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1917-18 | Ottawa | Without Cleghorn | 0.409 | 102 | 114 | 0.98 | 1.09
1918-19 | Ottawa | With Cleghorn | 0.667 | 71 | 54 | 0.95 | 0.72

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1919-20 | Ottawa | With Cleghorn | 0.792 | 121 | 64 | 1.05 | 0.56
1920-21 | Ottawa | Without Cleghorn | 0.583 | 97 | 75 | 0.96 | 0.74

Year | Team | Cleghorn? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1919-20 | Ottawa | With Cleghorn | 0.792 | 121 | 64 | 1.05 | 0.56
1920-21 | Ottawa | Without Cleghorn | 0.583 | 97 | 75 | 0.96 | 0.74

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1919-20 | Toronto | Without Cleghorn | 0.500 | 119 | 106 | 1.03 | 0.92
1920-21 | Toronto | With Cleghorn | 0.625 | 105 | 100 | 1.03 | 0.99

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1920-21 | Toronto | With Cleghorn | 0.625 | 105 | 100 | 1.03 | 0.99
1921-22 | Toronto | Without Cleghorn | 0.563 | 98 | 97 | 1.03 | 1.02

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1920-21 | Montreal | Without Cleghorn | 0.542 | 112 | 99 | 1.10 | 0.98
1921-22 | Montreal | With Cleghorn | 0.521 | 88 | 94 | 0.93 | 0.99

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1924-25 | Montreal | With Cleghorn | 0.600 | 93 | 56 | 1.24 | 0.75
1925-26 | Montreal | Without Cleghorn | 0.319 | 79 | 108 | 0.95 | 1.30

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1924-25 | Boston | Without Cleghorn | 0.200 | 49 | 119 | 0.65 | 1.59
1925-26 | Boston | With Cleghorn | 0.528 | 92 | 85 | 1.11 | 1.02

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
Total | Total | With Cleghorn | 0.614 | 675 | 553 | 1.05 | 0.86
Total | Total | Without Cleghorn | 0.429 | 656 | 718 | 0.97 | 1.06

Teams almost invariably improved when Cleghorn arrived and declined when he left. Especially on the defensive side, where the pre/post Cleghorn squads were 6% worse than league average, as compared to 14% better than league average with Cleghorn. The offensive difference was also positive - 5% above league average with Cleghorn, and 3% below league average without him.

This analysis doesn't take into account the fact that Cleghorn only played the second part of the 1920-21 regular season for Toronto. Looking within that season, and splitting it up by first half and second half:

Year | Team | With or Without? | W | L | Win% | GF | GA | GF/G | GA/G
1920-21 | Toronto | Without Cleghorn | 5 | 5 | 0.500 | 39 | 47 | 3.90 | 4.70
1920-21 | Toronto | With Cleghorn | 10 | 4 | 0.714 | 66 | 53 | 4.71 | 3.79

Once again, Cleghorn had a large impact on his team's fortunes.

Again, you could compare him to Chris Pronger...he moved around a bit but he transformed every team he played on.

 

[seventieslord]

Here is a chronicle of the way that teams' fortunes changed when Sprague Cleghorn changed teams.

I have left out the Montreal Wanderers, as their arena burned down after Cleghorn left and they did not play a full season. (Did Cleghorn have an alibi for the night of the fire?)

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1917-18 | Ottawa | Without Cleghorn | 0.409 | 102 | 114 | 0.98 | 1.09
1918-19 | Ottawa | With Cleghorn | 0.667 | 71 | 54 | 0.95 | 0.72

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1919-20 | Ottawa | With Cleghorn | 0.792 | 121 | 64 | 1.05 | 0.56
1920-21 | Ottawa | Without Cleghorn | 0.583 | 97 | 75 | 0.96 | 0.74

Year | Team | Cleghorn? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1919-20 | Ottawa | With Cleghorn | 0.792 | 121 | 64 | 1.05 | 0.56
1920-21 | Ottawa | Without Cleghorn | 0.583 | 97 | 75 | 0.96 | 0.74

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1919-20 | Toronto | Without Cleghorn | 0.500 | 119 | 106 | 1.03 | 0.92
1920-21 | Toronto | With Cleghorn | 0.625 | 105 | 100 | 1.03 | 0.99

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1920-21 | Toronto | With Cleghorn | 0.625 | 105 | 100 | 1.03 | 0.99
1921-22 | Toronto | Without Cleghorn | 0.563 | 98 | 97 | 1.03 | 1.02

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1920-21 | Montreal | Without Cleghorn | 0.542 | 112 | 99 | 1.10 | 0.98
1921-22 | Montreal | With Cleghorn | 0.521 | 88 | 94 | 0.93 | 0.99

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1924-25 | Montreal | With Cleghorn | 0.600 | 93 | 56 | 1.24 | 0.75
1925-26 | Montreal | Without Cleghorn | 0.319 | 79 | 108 | 0.95 | 1.30

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
1924-25 | Boston | Without Cleghorn | 0.200 | 49 | 119 | 0.65 | 1.59
1925-26 | Boston | With Cleghorn | 0.528 | 92 | 85 | 1.11 | 1.02

Year | Team | With or Without? | Win% | GF | GA | GF+ | GA+
Total | Total | With Cleghorn | 0.614 | 675 | 553 | 1.05 | 0.86
Total | Total | Without Cleghorn | 0.429 | 656 | 718 | 0.97 | 1.06

Teams almost invariably improved when Cleghorn arrived and declined when he left. Especially on the defensive side, where the pre/post Cleghorn squads were 6% worse than league average, as compared to 14% better than league average with Cleghorn. The offensive difference was also positive - 5% above league average with Cleghorn, and 3% below league average without him.

This analysis doesn't take into account the fact that Cleghorn only played the second part of the 1920-21 regular season for Toronto. Looking within that season, and splitting it up by first half and second half:

Year | Team | With or Without? | W | L | Win% | GF | GA | GF/G | GA/G
1920-21 | Toronto | Without Cleghorn | 5 | 5 | 0.500 | 39 | 47 | 3.90 | 4.70
1920-21 | Toronto | With Cleghorn | 10 | 4 | 0.714 | 66 | 53 | 4.71 | 3.79

Once again, Cleghorn had a large impact on his team's fortunes.

Again, you could compare him to Chris Pronger...he moved around a bit but he transformed every team he played on.

excellent analysis.

 

[Hardyvan123]

We can look at the actual historical record to evaluate this theory, instead of relying on a theory that twelve teams is twice as good as six teams.

Almost all of the leading scorers and leaders in awards voting in 1968-69 came from the original six teams. Very few players on expansion teams made an impact.

Top 10 in major statistical categories from expansion teams:

Goals
7. Red Berenson
9. Danny Grant
10. Norm Ferguson

Assists
9. Ted Hampson
10. Red Berenson

Points
9. Red Berenson

Top 5 in major awards voting from expansion teams

Hart
4. Red Berenson

Norris
5. Al Arbour

24 of the 30 spots in the top 10 stat categories and 8 of the 10 spots in awards voting came from players on the original six teams. No expansion team players placed in the top 6 in scoring categories or in the top 3 in major awards voting. I'd say a top 10 was pretty close to the same in 1967 and 1969.

And who knows - maybe Red Berenson gets a chance if there wasn't expansion, and in that case the leaderboards in the 6 team league and the 12 team league would be essentially identical.

I never said that twice as many teams would be twice as good just that an 8th place finish in 67 isn't the same as an 8th place finish in 69.

More specifically given those two years in the example it shows quite clearly the huge impact it had on offensive numbers overall for individual skaters. for example the 8th leading point getter in 67 had 61 points and the 16th had 47. In 69 the 8th player had 82 points and the 16th had 70, which was 3 points more than the 8th guy in 67.

In 69 the 21st top scoring player was the 1st dman with 64 points and in 67 we have Pilote who is up for debate in this section with a 12th place with 62 points and in 9th was Doug Mohns but I'm not sure he played the whole season as a Dman.

Now some are going to argue that 12th in 67 is the same as 12th in 69 but how are they going to account for the best scoring Dman at 21st who happened to win his 2nd of 8 straight Norris trophies and is known as Robert Gordon Orr?

I for one would say that the guy in 69 finishing 21st in overall scoring had a better season than the guy finishing 12th in 67 but that's just me.

The fact of the matter is that as a league has more teams and at a mature rate then there is a major difference in the possibilities of top 5,10, 15, 20 finishes ect...

 

[Hardyvan123]

It is common sense. There are about 6x as many jobs in the nhl now, and the number of available players of a certain relative skill level has not increased by a degree anywhere close to that.

Certainly it is closer to 1967 now than it has ever been, but it is obvious that through the 80s and especially 70s the worst players in the nhl were much worse than in the years approaching expansion.

This is lightly off topic but there is a very strong argument that the extra player streams from both Europe and the US college system along with the larger number of well run junior A teams in Canada more than make up the 6x difference and that has been the case for a while (early to mid 90's perhaps).

I think people sometimes get caught up in the "evolution sticky" in the history section here and that's not what is being argued here.

The competition level of all players in certain seasons in the NHL against their peers is far from being consistent and ebbs and flows but generally gets more difficult, ie. more competitive as the league goes on with the same number of teams at any given time.

My previous post gives some insight into how different statistics can be vastly different in a short period of 2 years just from expansion nevermind the influx of new talent for new streams which happened later on.

 

[Hardyvan123]

excellent analysis.

I agree very interesting stuff and good work.

Were there any other significant changes on these teams from year to year and even if there were there is a large number of seasons which this happened more than coincidence and probably most other variables as well.

 

[Dreakmur]

I agree very interesting stuff and good work.

Were there any other significant changes on these teams from year to year and even if there were there is a large number of seasons which this happened more than coincidence and probably most other variables as well.

Most star players of that era didn't move around very much, if at all. Often, they were only traded at the very end of their careers, played 1 or 2 seasons, then retired.

Very few impact players were traded, so it is very unikely that there were other moves that impacted the teams like Cleghorn did.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

How many professional games did Cleghorn play... 400? Does anyone else hold that against him?

Sure, it's not his fault, but most of the defensemen he is going up against played easily 1,000 professional games and more. Someone like Stevens played well over 1,600 professional games and was an impact player till the very last one. I still have trouble seeing Cleghorn placing high in this round.