Round 2, Vote 1 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

[seventieslord]

HSP is missing some years. As for 2001, Straka had 2 and Kasparaitis had the Game 7 winner. Regular Season game, maybe?

just found it. it was the game that sent game 6 into OT. So a huge goal.

 

[blogofmike]

No, Wayne Gretzky was done in by the short shift game which reduced his offensive skills from a managed marathon which few could equal or defend to a sprint that effectively trivialized offensive hockey.

His supporting cast was no different than the rest of the league teams that were in the playoffs. Wayne Gretzky was simply a strategic quarterback who could not function as well within a rushed, no huddle offence. Nor did he adapt like Sakic, Yzerman and others did.

He adapted as well as anyone. Playoff numbers only because of the thread, but with 74 ES points in 88 games, he remained an ES force on par with Mario Lemieux (76 ESP in 89 games, 0.01 per game edge to Lemieux). In this span Yzerman scored 40 in 89 games and Sakic scored 37 in 51.

In games he played, he was part of 44.8% of his team's offense. His post-Edmonton teams were not the best. He was a +2 on teams that were -11 when he left the ice, and he didn't monopolize the best linemates available (Robitaille/Nicholls, Messier/Graves).

 

[blogofmike]

Thanks, I'll gather what I can. Might have a hole in our research for the other years.

http://bigmouthsports.com/stanley-cup-1917-1949/

I have found these boxscores to be fairly accurate

 

[quoipourquoi]

http://bigmouthsports.com/stanley-cup-1917-1949/

I have found these boxscores to be fairly accurate

Fantastic. Bookmarked, for sure.

So that settles that issue: Maurice Richard, 6 goals and 1 assist over 17 wins and 12 losses.

Doug Harvey picked up two assists in those three previously unaccounted games. Could be interesting to follow down that rabbit hole.

 

[bobholly39]

Awesome work on the OT breakdown.

I feel as though it didn't do much for Rocket Richard. Was kinda hoping for more. We knew he had the goals. You can probably say he was somewhat more productive than Gretzky in OT, but not really by a lot. Certainly not enough to really raise his stock much vs Gretzky in my book.

I think at this point Gretzky is pretty unanimously #1 as a forward. And probably by a somewhat comfortable gap.

Possible to make an argument for Roy (or a defenseman?) though a lot of that likely hinges on the apples to oranges element that comes from comparing different positions. Position for position, i think Gretzky is the #1 forward in playoff history.

 

[Dom]

I'll try to add game 7 logs for everybody, then game 6 for leading and trailing if possible.

Joe Sakic Game 7 Log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
04/05/1998|COL||EDM|L|0|0|0|-1|1
04/06/1999|COL|@|DAL|L|1|0|1|-1|2|22:28
27/05/2000|COL|@|DAL|L|0|0|0|0|1|22:40
09/06/2001|COL||NJD|W|1|1|2|2|3|22:39
29/04/2002|COL||LAK|W|0|0|0|2|4|22:14
15/05/2002|COL||SJS|W|0|0|0|0|2|22:35
31/05/2002|COL|@|DET|L|0|0|0|-1|2|17:32
22/04/2003|COL||MIN|L-OT|1|1|2|1|6|23:53

Games 8
Goals 3
Assists 2
Points 5
Record 3-5

Wayne Gretzky Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
22/04/1984|EDM||CGY|W|1|2|3
30/04/1986|EDM||CGY|L|0|1|1
31/05/1987|EDM||PHI|W|0|1|1
15/04/1989|LAK||EDM|W|2|1|3|1|4
29/05/1993|LAK|@|TOR|W|3|1|4|2|4
16/05/1996|STL|@|DET|L|0|0|0|-1|2

Games 6
Goals 6
Assists 6
Points 12
Record 4-2


Mario Lemieux Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
29/04/1989|PIT ||PHI|L|1|0|1|-3|5
15/04/1991|PIT ||NJD|W|1|0|1|0|2
01/05/1992|PIT|@|WSH|W|1|1|2|1|3
14/05/1993|PIT ||NYI|L|0|1|1|0|7
01/06/1996|PIT ||FLA|L|0|1|1|-2|5
10/05/2001|PIT|@|BUF|W|0|0|0|0|1

Games 6
Goals 3
Assists 3
Points 6
Record 3-3


Mark Messier Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
22/04/1984|EDM||CGY|W|0|0|0
30/04/1986|EDM||CGY|L|1|0|1
31/05/1987|EDM||PHI|W|1|0|1
15/04/1989|EDM|@|LAK|L|0|3|3|-1|1
16/04/1990|EDM||WIN|W|0|0|0|0|1
16/04/1991|EDM|@|CGY|W|0|1|1|-1|4
01/05/1992|NYR||NJD|W|2|1|3|2|3
27/05/1994|NYR||NJD|W|0|1|1|0|3
14/06/1994|NYR||VAN|W|1|1|2|0|4

Games 9
Goals 5
Assists 7
Points 12
Record 7-2

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Gazette

I'm having some difficulty tracking down Maurice Richard's overtime assists. I can get the team win/loss records (and I know Richard and Howe's exact goal totals), but I may need some help getting the pre-1952 box scores to get the assists.

The dates of the OT games are public knowledge. Check the Montreal Gazette archives, easily accesible here in the sticky section check the day after or two days since late finishes missed deadlines and the paper did not publish Sundays. If ssue not available try the Ottawa, Windsor or western Canada major city papers.If you have problems let me know and will try to help. Rather busy with life - post snowstorm and cold snap catch-up.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not the Point

He adapted as well as anyone. Playoff numbers only because of the thread, but with 74 ES points in 88 games, he remained an ES force on par with Mario Lemieux (76 ESP in 89 games, 0.01 per game edge to Lemieux). In this span Yzerman scored 40 in 89 games and Sakic scored 37 in 51.

In games he played, he was part of 44.8% of his team's offense. His post-Edmonton teams were not the best. He was a +2 on teams that were -11 when he left the ice, and he didn't monopolize the best linemates available (Robitaille/Nicholls, Messier/Graves).

Not the point. Lemieux arrived in the NHL in the transition phase to the Short Shift Era so he does not bring a body of work to the discussion that mayn be reviewed like Gretzky does.

Regardless, Gretzky saw a drop in the 30-35% range of his ES performance as the Short Shift Era progressed into the nineties.Sakic was basically a SSE player, Yzerman was similar to Lemieux. Range basically explains the difficulty of pinning down when each team changed to a short shift game.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

If there is one player for whom I don't even consider his defensive game, it's Gretzky. That wasn't his game and I think it would have been detrimental to his efficiency if he focused more on defense. I would even say that his full offense was actually great defense. It can also be said that Gretzky's full offense style was even more adequate for the 80s hockey, which raise his stock in my book.

As for the raw numbers being inflated in blowout wins, I'm not so convinced without seeing the data.

Also, Gretzky was playing the same field as everyone and dominating the field just the same.

Can't say I agree with giving anybody a free pass on one of the two major aspects of the game. Gretzky may well have been maximizing his effectiveness by playing a full-out offensive style, but that's no reason to ignore his contributions in other areas as compared to the other players up for vote.

And Gretzky wasn't playing the same field as everybody, unless by everybody you just mean his teammates. Playoff strength of schedules can be wildly imbalanced. The Oilers had 7 playoff series against sub-.500 teams from 1983-1988.

- Humm...Considering Gretzky had 8 points in 5 games, I think something like "relatively kept in check" might be a little more descriptive . I mean, I get that Gretzky had little to no Non-PK defensive duties, and that half his offensive production came in game 1, before Carbo came along and basically told Demers "I'm taking care of 99", but I think we had to be careful about setting two standards -- one for Gretzky and another for everybody else.

- Wouldn't the 2nd paragraph apply to Messier as well (to a certain extent?)

My general recollection from going over playoff boxscores was that Gretzky tended to pile-on in blowouts more than Messier. I haven't actually compiled the numbers though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Gretzky was among the Oilers who played stronger defensively in the playoffs as noted in commentary here: https://youtu.be/80GLYMVEcuw?t=22m9s

In a career that long good plays and bad plays will happen, but a notable small moment is Game 3 of the 1985 Finals. Besides getting the Hat Trick, he's the centre they send to win the final faceoff (and after Huddy fumbles it, Gretzky recovers it and clears the zone) in a 6-on-5 situation when the Flyers are pressing for a tie.



He was strong most of the time. He even had the poor luck of running into teams/goalies who were on some great runs, Smith/Isles, Smith/Isles, Lindbergh/Flyers, Hextall/Flyers, Lemelin/Bs, and Roy/Habs. In 1985 I believe all his opponents were winning teams. The Smythe wasn't the Norris.



It also partially reflects the fact that the Kings lost much more often and got murdered defensively. Gretzky was a -5, and frequent non-linemate Luc Robitaille was a -21.

Everyone will do poorly in losses. If it were feasible to calculate the pluses and minuses, Beliveau and Harvey would have off playoff years too, even with 1st place teams with good goaltending in the early 60s, or particularly in the 52/54 Finals.

Everyone does have some off years, yes. More a response to the notion that Gretzky never had any. I believe he did, just like everyone else.

 

[shazariahl]

Can't say I agree with giving anybody a free pass on one of the two major aspects of the game. Gretzky may well have been maximizing his effectiveness by playing a full-out offensive style, but that's no reason to ignore his contributions in other areas as compared to the other players up for vote.

And Gretzky wasn't playing the same field as everybody, unless by everybody you just mean his teammates. Playoff strength of schedules can be wildly imbalanced. The Oilers had 7 playoff series against sub-.500 teams from 1983-1988.



My general recollection from going over playoff boxscores was that Gretzky tended to pile-on in blowouts more than Messier. I haven't actually compiled the numbers though, so take it with a grain of salt.



Everyone does have some off years, yes. More a response to the notion that Gretzky never had any. I believe he did, just like everyone else.

First, I agree that everyone has off years, even Gretzky. But his off years don't really compare to the off years of most others even here in the top players list.

Second, you can't hold it against Gretzky that he played against a lot of sub .500 teams. All you can do is look at how he did vs the competition he had. He was great in the finals against top teams too. As for piling on more points in blowouts than Messier, that could well be true, but he scored more than Messier regardless, so that only stands to reason.

Besides, considering the Oilers blew a 5-0 lead to the Kings in the playoffs to get eliminated, I don't think letting up in a playoff game regardless of score is something to be admired. One of Gretzky's best traits was that he was usually just as hungry when he was up 9-2 as he did when he was down 4-3 in the 3rd. We've all seen games with some crazy comebacks.

 

[The Panther]

Can't say I agree with giving anybody a free pass on one of the two major aspects of the game. Gretzky may well have been maximizing his effectiveness by playing a full-out offensive style, but that's no reason to ignore his contributions in other areas as compared to the other players up for vote.

Not every team style is the same (well, they are now but didn't use to be). Edmonton circa 1981 to 1988 did not have the same style of winning hockey games that Montreal had in the same era, for example. The Edmonton team was built to win primarily by offense (and did pretty well at it). They still could win 1-0 games in the Finals, but by and large it was a team built around Gretzky's offensive skill. (This was moderated after the '86 loss to Calgary and then losing Coffey... but it was still a team that could score other teams to defeat.)

So, while I agree that no one players gets a "free pass" for different aspects of the game, it would be absurd to hold young-Gretzky to the same expectation of a two-way game, as, say, Guy Carbonneau. It would likely be more appropriate to compare 1981-1988 Gretzky with other 1st-line forwards on other offensive teams. For example, if you compared him with Denis Savard or Dale Hawerchuk or Marcel Dionne.

It's also worth noting that while defense in the traditional sense was clearly not Gretzky's forte, he was killing penalties regularly in the playoffs and often taking D-zone face-offs, etc. I would say his defensive value is of average level of 1st-line forwards of his time. (On the other hand, when the player is +28 in 18 playoff games, does anyone really care what his traditional defensive skill is? And should we?)

And Gretzky wasn't playing the same field as everybody, unless by everybody you just mean his teammates. Playoff strength of schedules can be wildly imbalanced. The Oilers had 7 playoff series against sub-.500 teams from 1983-1988.

Well, that isn't actually very much when you're looking at a six-year period of going to the Finals every year but one. We could turn it around and say from 1983 to 1988 the Oilers' opponent was a plus .500 team in 15 of 22 series. (And two of the seven sub-.500 were Calgary in '83 and Detroit in '87, both strong teams on the rise. The Flames in '83 lost only five games at home all season.)

In addition, from 1983 to 1988 the Oilers defeated Chicago (104 points), Minnesota (1st in division), the Islanders (2nd overall, Cup champs), Philly (1st overall), Detroit (1st in division, albeit a weak 1st), Philly again (2nd overall), Calgary (1st overall), Detroit again (1st in division, 5th overall). So, it's not like it was a cake-walk.

In fact, of the seven sub-.500 opponents you refer to, only one (Detroit '87) occurred in the third or fourth round (and Detroit in '87 was a really good team).

I would suggest looking at Gretzky's stats those years based on the third and fourth-round only if you're thinking he was beating up mostly weak teams. You'll find it isn't so.

My general recollection from going over playoff boxscores was that Gretzky tended to pile-on in blowouts more than Messier.

Of course he piled-on in blowouts more than Messier. He also scored points in close games and first-periods more than Messier. He scored more than twice as many points as Messier.

Everyone does have some off years, yes. More a response to the notion that Gretzky never had any. I believe he did, just like everyone else.

He did indeed, but never with Edmonton.

Gretzky was mediocre in 1990 (albeit he was injured and missed three games), good (Vancouver) and terrible (Edmonton) in 1991, and terrible in 1992. But he was great in 1989 and 1993 and 1997, and good in 1996.

Basically, he was awesome every playoff year except when he had to play against Edmonton (exception being 1989).

 

[quoipourquoi]

e Of course he piled-on in blowouts more than Messier. He also scored points in close games and first-periods more than Messier. He scored more than twice as many points as Messier.

That doesn't strike me as being accurate. In 1985, he nearly did it, but the other three championships had Messier playing him closer on the scoreboard.

From the Centers project:


Mark Messier's Seven Stanley Cup Finals

Year | GP | G | A | PTS | +/- | PTS/GP 1983 |15|15|6|21|N/A|1.40
1984 |19|8|18|26|+9|1.37
1985 |18|12|13|25|+13|1.39
1987 |21|12|16|28|+13|1.33
1988 |19|11|23|34|+9|1.79
1990 |22|9|22|31|+5|1.41
1994 |23|12|18|30|+14|1.30

* Never scored fewer than 25 points in a Stanley Cup winning run
* Was challenging Reggie Leach (19 Goals) in 1983 until separating his shoulder
* Scored an additional 100 playoff points outside of these runs


Quotes From the 1984-1990 Playoffs

The destruction he could wreak was perhaps never better exhibited than in Game 7 of the 1984 series against the rival Flames.

That night, Messier proved to be a one-man war of attrition, knocking three Calgary players out of action during the decisive third period. Paul Reinhart had long since been stretchered off; Mike Eaves lay crumpled like a discarded cigarette pack in a corner after being run over ("It was as if he got hit by a bus," recalled Oilers goaltender Grant Fuhr. "There were tire tracks running up and down his back."); and Al MacInnis exited early after being cut down by a knee injury. All courtesy of one man.

Carnage. Sheer carnage. Messier carnage.

"That Messier!" Flames coach Badger Bob Johnson would growl after that game. "That Messier! He knocked three of our guys out of the game! Three! That was …" He stammered. "That was …" He glowered. "That was …" He paced the hallway, apparently enraged at the injustice of it all. "That was …" His face lapsed into a look above appreciation, arguably approaching awe. "Amazing!"

Should they prevail, [Mark Messier] stands to reap rewards beyond the shared glory of the Cup. As the triggerman of the Oilers' offense - and the neutralizing force that has helped shackle the Islanders' superlative center, Bryan Trottier - Messier has emerged as the frontrunner for the Conn Smythe Trophy, which is awarded to the most valuable player in the playoffs.

Exploiting his Mr. Universe physique and style, Messier has led an unprcedented Edmonton attack that has throttled the Islanders in Games 1 (a 1-0 victory), 3 and 4. As Wayne Gretzky, another Edmonton center, observed, "Forechecking is the best defense." And Messier has been the Oilers' foremost forechecker.

With 15 games left before the playoffs, Oilers coach Glen Sather decided to shift Messier to center on a line with Glenn Anderson and Willy Lindstrom. On the surface, it seemed like turning Barbra Streisand into a pantomimist, but Sather had his reasons.

There are goals and there are goals. There are goals that nobody sees, and there are goals that nobody forgets. There are shots that carom off skate, pad and armpit on their way to the red light, and there are majestic offensive feats on which you could base a movie. Last night in Northlands Coliseum, it was Mark Messier of the Edmonton Oilers, screen-testing for Chariots of Ice.

He is an intimidating sight, Mark Messier is - the new wave leader of hockey's new wave. He has been the most intimidating sight for New York Islanders.

"If the series ends Saturday, he will win the Conn Smythe Trophy," said teammate Dave Lumley.

The myths that have long surrounded Edmonton Oilers are quickly disappearing as are the myths that have surrounded Messier.

Long considered to be living and playing on the fringe, Messier not only has established himself with his Stanley Cup play, but has put to rest any of the Team Gretzky, Edmonton Gretzkys, one-man team commentaries that have so often afflicted the Oilers.

Yesterday morning, [Mark Messier] began communicating again. "He told me, I'm going to go out and lead this hockey team," recalled Kevin Lowe, Messier's teammate and housemate. "He's always determined, but he seemed especially so this morning."

It took Trottier, the game's star, exactly 60 minutes and 10 seconds to get into the spirit of the final. The first 60 came in the first game when he made a negligible contribution to the Islanders' 1-0 loss. The 10 seconds came last night, when the Oilers' Mark Messier flattened him with one of the hardest playoff checks in the first minute of the game.

And, unlike last spring, forward Mark Messier is healthy. Playing left wing last spring, Messier labored with a separated shoulder in the final and was easily nullified by the hard-checking Islanders.

"Gawd, it's nice to be going into the Stanley Cup final healthy," said Messier, now playing centre. "Last year I was hurt but I really didn't think much about it. I found myself getting caught up in the excitement. Still, the shoulder was significant."

This year the shoulder has been significant because of the solid hits it has been handing out. Those hits, the Oilers realize, will be essential in the final, especially if they again meet the Islanders.

"Mark is so strong and against their big guys, (Bryan) Trottier and (Denis) Potvin especially, that's important," Lowe said.

"When Mark takes that little turn back into his own end and winds up, there's not too many guys in hockey can stop him," Winnipeg Jet coach Barry Long said.

"What he has going for him are his strength and speed. He's not a plodding-type player, and it takes a big person to counter that. We don't truly have the size at centre ice to do it. We had Laurie Boschman on him. Laurie tried, but he can't skate as well and he's not as strong."

And there's always the matter of Messier's temperament. Although he's a clean player most of the time, there have been enough departures from the straight and narrow to make opposition players wary. Messier has served suspensions for assaulting players with his stick, and the elbow that broke Valdimir Kovin's nose in the Canada Cup series would have landed Messier in the Lubyanka had it taken place in the Soviet Union.

"He has a little mean streak," a reporter suggested to Long.

"Little?" Long responded.

Long, a fairly rough player in his own day, laughed. "That's what makes him even scarier. The fact that he does have that mean streak is what separates him from ordinary people. But speed and size and meanness are what you look for when you're trying to draft a player. You want to draft a player that has all those three qualities. They got lucky with him."

In fact, Long said, the presence of Messier in the Oiler lineup is one of the reasons that Jet captain and scoring leader Dale Hawerchuk has not returned wearing a flak jacket to protect his cracked rib. Hawerchuk has been scratched from tonight's fourth - and probably final - game of the series. "It's Mark out there I don't trust," Long said. "He'd run right over his mother, so he'd for sure run over Dale Hawerchuk. And it's such a well-publicized injury. I don't think there's a kid in Canada who doesn't know what's broken."

When Long says things such as this about Messier, he says them with a tone of admiration, not bitterness. "I wouldn't expect anything else from the Oilers," he said. "If the situation were reversed, I wouldn't expect my guys to go out there and say, 'Oh-oh, we can't hit him.' You have to hit him."

A local newspaper conducted a telephone poll of fans yesterday and they favored Coffey with 47.1 per cent of the vote, then Fuhr with 33.7 and Gretzky third at 19.2.

The question was put to someone who should know, Edmonton Oiler coach Glen Sather.

"Here's a question for you to dodge, Slats. Who deserves to win the Conn Smythe Trophy, Gretzky or Coffey?"

"I'm dodging that one. And, anyway, what about Grant Fuhr?"

"All right, then. Who's going to win the Conn Smythe Trophy, Gretzky, Coffey or Fuhr?"

"One of those three guys. But don't forget about Mark Messier."

Sather has a point. Messier, who won the trophy last year, also has been a major contributor this season. He was especially strong in the two middle series - against the Winnipeg Jets and the Chicago Black Hawks - and has been quietly effective against the Philadelphia Flyers. When the Oilers badly needed a win in the Spectrum, it was Messier who won 36 of 50 faceoffs.

"We did a good job on Gretzky and just as good a job on Mark Messier," Demers continued. "We're just as afraid of him as we are of Gretzky. Messier comes at you like a bulldozer."

The large and fearsome form of the Edmonton Oilers' Mark Messier has cast another shadow over the Stanley Cup hopes of the Philadelphia Flyers.

Mark Howe, the Flyers' superb veteran defenceman, is hobbling on a swollen left knee and bruised left leg, suffered in a collision in the first period of Edmonton's 4-2 win Sunday in the opening game of the Cup final.

While Howe says he will be ready for tomorrow night's second match, he did not skate with the team yesterday "and if I had to play tomorrow (today), I couldn't."

At any time, in hockey, and especially in the playoffs, a good player will do much more than contribute to the offence. No one who plays the game professionally, even the greatest of superstars, is able to score every night. Sometimes, they can't even set up goals for others. But the quality players make their presence felt in every game, whether the average fan notices or not.

From the Edmonton Oilers ' point of view, the offensive star of the fourth game of the Stanley Cup finals against the Philadelphia Flyers was Wayne Gretzky. But equally important - perhaps even more so, if all things were considered - was Mark Messier.

As is usually the case, Messier handed out some punishing bodychecks -the kind that make any opponent lose his concentration. And he was excellent on faceoffs. When they held a two-goal lead, the Oilers were quite willing to slow down the play by taking faceoffs in their own end. Goaltender Grant Fuhr froze the puck whenever he had an opportunity, feeling confident that Messier would be able to win the ensuing faceoff and thereby relieve the pressure.

Messier's influence on the Oilers is often underestimated. Throughout his career, he has played in the shadow of Wayne Gretzky, and although most observers consider him to be one of the league's top 10 stars, he still can't escape being stereotyped as a backup - part of Gretzky's supporting cast. But the Oilers will tell you that when it comes to being a team leader, a clubhouse firebrand, nobody does it like Mark Messier. Nobody.

It was Messier who took charge when the National Hockey League's greatest players met in Quebec City for the Rendez-Vous '87 series. Although he had been designated no particular authority, he stood up and spelled out exactly what was expected of every player, right down to the nature of the pre-game warmup

"He just said, 'This is the way it's going to be,' " recalled the Washington Capitals' Rod Langway. "He told us everything we were going to do. Then he asked if anybody had any problems with that. Nobody did. We all just sat there. He was great."

It is also Messier who takes over when the Oilers need some sort of spark - as he decided they did when they went into the third period of the second game trailing 2-1 at home. And it was Messier, not coach Glen Sather, who did the shouting after Friday's game in Philadelphia. Messier exploded in the dressing room, telling his teammates that they had been guilty of throwing away a game that they should have won. He was especially unhappy with Esa Tikkanen for taking a retaliatory penalty which led to a Flyers goal.

"Who told you that?" asked Sather. "I'm surprised that anybody would talk about what went on in here. I believe that what is said in here, should stay in here."

But did Messier makes the speech or did he not? "Well," said Sather, "I think if anybody made a speech like that, Messier would be the guy." In fact, the words from Messier's speech were still ringing in his teammates' ears when they took to the ice last night.

In a performance that will go down with some of the more memorable displays in playoff history, Mark Messier led the Edmonton Oilers to a 4-2 victory over the Chicago Blackhawks last night. Messier was everywhere. He scored two goals, set up two others and led the Oilers' strong checking game by example.

As a result, the Oilers tied the Campbell Conference best-of-seven final 2-2. The fifth game is tomorrow in Edmonton.

The Oilers considered the game to be crucial if they are to win another Stanley Cup. Not surprisingly, Messier came through when he was needed the most. He was easily the most visible player on the ice as he dominated the Blackhawks, both with his physical play and with his finesse. He earned an assist on the Oilers' first goal by Glenn Anderson. He blazed down the wing to pick up a loose puck before scoring their second. And he assisted on the third by Craig Simpson before scoring the fourth
goal on a breakaway.

In between, he was rattling Blackhawks against the boards, blocking shots and running interference for his teammates.

"When you really need it the most, he's there," said Oiler general manager Glen Sather. "He did it against the Islanders (when the Oilers won their first Stanley Cup). He has done it a lot through the years and he has done it a lot this year. He did it against Winnipeg when we were down."

 

[quoipourquoi]

A quick glance has Gordie Howe at 4 overtime assists. I'll try to get everyone as they come up over the next few weeks in that table of overtime scorers and win/loss records. Could be a fun resource to have.

Anyway, voting is open. I'll be in and out through Sunday, and I'll have the ballots counted on Monday, so get it to me before then.

 

[The Panther]

That doesn't strike me as being accurate. In 1985, he nearly did it, but the other three championships had Messier playing him closer on the scoreboard.

Right. I was saying it in reference to the regular season, or in general, not just playoffs.

 

[The Panther]

The comment was made about Gretzky's strength of competition from 1983 to 1988 (that is, including 1983 Finals when Edmonton lost).

Regarding those years, here is how he did in the first two rounds of playoffs vs. the latter-two rounds:
1983
First two: 8GP / 22pts
Last two: 8GP / 16pts
1984
First two: 10GP / 18pts
Last two: 9GP / 17pts
1985
First two: 7GP / 18pts
Last two: 11GP / 29pts
1986
First two: 10GP / 19pts
1987
First two: 9GP / 21pts
Last two: 12GP / 13pts
1988
First two: 9GP / 17pts
Last two: 9.5GP / 26pts


In total (1983-1988)
Round 1 & 2: 53GP / 115pts (2.17 PPG)
Round 3 & 4: 49.5GP / 101pts (2.04 PPG)

The one Edmonton-Gretzky series that jumps out, statistically, is 1987 vs. Detroit. He scored a measly 2 assists in 5 games. If you're an Edmonton fan, this is because Dale Hawerchuk concussed Gretzky at the end of the previous series; if you're a Detroit fan, it's because Yzerman (or someone else) checked him into submission.

[Incidentally, if you delete that Detroit series from his totals, his PPG is notably higher in the third and fourth rounds than in the first two.]


As for this thread's noble enterprise, I will abstain from voting because I don't feel comfortable formally ranking mostly players I didn't see. But it will be interesting nonetheless...

 

[bobholly39]

Plan on going over everything this weekend before submitting my vote. But as of now, here are my thoughts on each player, not in any order:

Gretzky - as high on him today as I was going in. Pretty secure at #1, and has been this whole time

Roy - Only name to possibly beat Gretzky. I'll admit so far i've looked and considered each of the 2 guys mostly on their own, as opposed to against each other. This weekend i plan to evaluate the apples to oranges of a goalie vs forward and decide if Roy should be above. At first glance, I think not. Also as high on Roy today as I was going in.

Orr. Still very unsure. Need to read again through some of the data/posts about him. Unsure doesn't mean "bad", just means he's one of the guys I need to read up a bit more on before making a final decision of where to slot him.

Potvin. I'm higher on him today than i was going in. Like a lot of the stuff i read about him here.

Harvey. Was pretty high on him going in, still am today. Hasn't changed a lot. Like a lot of the stuff i read on him.

Howe. Unsure. I flip flop a lot on him. Was never super high on him, i can't see him cracking my top 5, though he might be close.

Lafleur. Great prime but very bad outside of that. Don't expect to rank him in top 10.

Plante. Higher on him today than i was going in. Still can't see him overtaking Roy though.

Beliveau. My opinion hasn't changed a whole lot on him. Maybe every so slightly down.

Sakic. I love his "clutchiness". The overtime, and also timing of goals, make him look really good. Also has at least 1 ridiculously strong conn smythe run that compares to some of the best ones here. Overall i think he's on the lower end of the top 13, but there are aspects of him that merit admiration and might make me reconsider.

Lemieux. Was high going in, still am. I know I talk about him a lot. For the most part, I feel as though he was as good as can be overall in the playoff years he played. His "highs" are possibly as high as top 2, and he has no real weaknesses (much less so than others on here anyways). Haven't decided yet how much weigh ill give to lack of longevity.

Messier. I flip flop a lot on him. I absolutely love and admire how consistently he produced. And he's no Gretzky, from whom you'd expect that type of production. But he also usually wasn't the "main" offensive weapon on his teams, sometimes not even 2nd or 3rd best, but not sure that should matter a whole lot. I have him close to Howe.

Richard. My opinion on him has gone mostly down in this round. He'll still rank high overall, though probably not as high as you'd expect.

 

[bobholly39]

Can't say I agree with giving anybody a free pass on one of the two major aspects of the game. Gretzky may well have been maximizing his effectiveness by playing a full-out offensive style, but that's no reason to ignore his contributions in other areas as compared to the other players up for vote.

I don't know that it's about giving Gretzky a "free pass" as much as it's about not holding it against him.

The Oilers (and Kings?) playstyle were designed around making Gretzky Score. His Job was to score, and not play defense. You certainly can't hold that against him.

Doesn't mean you can't give credit to more defensive forwards for the contributions they made on defense, i just think you can't hold it against Gretzky.

If the coach says "go score, nothing else". That was his job, and that's what he should be evaluated on.

If there are a lot of examples where Gretzky was a problematic defensive liability that cost games, than sure, you can start holding that against him. Not sure that was really the case though.

Btw same logic above applies to Lemieux.

 

[Dom]

Guy Lafleur Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
10/05/1979|MTL||BOS|W|1|2|3
30/04/1980|MTL||MIN|L|0|0|0

Games 2
Goals 1
Assists 2
Points 3
Record 1-1

Maurice Richard Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
08/04/1952|MTL||BOS|W|1|0|1
07/04/1953|MTL||CHI|W|1|0|1
16/04/1954|MTL|@|DET|L|0|0|0

Games 3
Goals 2
Assists 0
Points 2
Record 2-1

Jean Beliveau Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
16/04/1954|MTL|@|DET|L|0|0|0
14/04/1955|MTL|@|DET|L|0|1|1
09/04/1964|MTL||TOR|L|0|0|0
01/05/1965|MTL||CHI|W|1|1|2
18/04/1971|MTL|@|BOS|W|0|0|0
18/05/1971|MTL|@|CHI|W|0|0|0

Games 6
Goals 1
Assists 2
Points 3
Record 3-3

Gordie Howe Game 7 log

Date | Team | | Opp | Res | G | A | P | +/- | S | Min
05/04/1949|DET||MTL|W|1|0|1
09/04/1950|DET||TOR|W|0|0|0
23/04/1950|DET||NYR|W|0|0|0
16/04/1954|DET||MTL|W|0|0|0
14/04/1955|DET||MTL|W|1|0|1
09/04/1964|DET|@|CHI|W|1|2|3
25/04/1964|DET|@|TOR|L|0|0|0
15/04/1965|DET||CHI|L|1|1|2

Games 8
Goals 4
Assists 3
Points 7
Record 6-2

 

[Dom]

Game 7 Forwards Recap

Player | Games | Goals | Assists | Points | Record
Wayne Gretzky|6|6|6|12|4-2
Mark Messier|9|5|7|12|7-2
Gordie Howe|8|4|3|7|6-2
Mario Lemieux|6|3|3|6|3-3
Joe Sakic|8|3|2|5|3-5
Guy Lafleur|2|1|2|3|1-1
Jean Béliveau|6|1|2|3|3-3
Maurice Richard|3|2|0|2|2-1

 

[Dom]

Patrick Roy Game 7 Log

Date | Team || Opp | Rss | GA | SA | SV | SV% | TOI
29/04/1986|MTL||HAR|W|2|32|30|0.937|65:55:00
01/05/1992|MTL||HAR|W|2|41|39|0.951|85:22:00
29/04/1994|MTL|@|BOS|L|5|31|26|0.839|59:00:00
04/05/1998|COL||EDM|L|4|17|13|0.765|59:56:00
04/06/1999|COL|@|DAL|L|4|25|21|0.840|59:42:00
27/05/2000|COL|@|DAL|L|3|29|26|0.897|58:38:00
09/05/2001|COL||LAK|W|1|26|25|0.962|59:47:00
09/06/2001|COL||NJD|W|1|26|25|0.962|60:00:00
29/04/2002|COL||LAK|W|0|23|23|1.000|60:00:00
15/05/2002|COL||SJS|W|0|27|27|1.000|60:00:00
31/05/2002|COL|@|DET|L|6|16|10|0.625|26:28:00
22/04/2003|COL||MIN|L-OT|3|30|27|0.900|63:18:00
|||||31|323|292|0.904|718:06:00

Record: 6-6
GAA: 2.59

 

[The Panther]

Richard. My opinion on him has gone mostly down in this round. He'll still rank high overall, though probably not as high as you'd expect.

Before you decide your votes, remember that Maurice Richard scored 82 playoff goals in 133 playoff games, in a very low-scoring era. In fact, if you ignore his final two playoffs (when he was 37 and 38 years old, which is like being 45 now), he scored 81 in 121, which is 0.67 GPG.

Super-Mario is resting at an outstanding 0.71 GPG, with almost 80% of his career games in a much-higher scoring period than Richard ever saw.

In other words, Maurice Richard was better than Mario at goal-scoring in the playoffs.

There is no doubt in my mind that Maurice Richard is the #1 playoff goal-scorer of all-time.

(That's not to say he's the #1 player, or that he's better than Mario overall.)


So, just consider that before you vote....

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Before you decide your votes, remember that Maurice Richard scored 82 playoff goals in 133 playoff games, in a very low-scoring era. In fact, if you ignore his final two playoffs (when he was 37 and 38 years old, which is like being 45 now), he scored 81 in 121, which is 0.67 GPG.

Super-Mario is resting at an outstanding 0.71 GPG, with almost 80% of his career games in a much-higher scoring period than Richard ever saw.

In other words, Maurice Richard was better than Mario at goal-scoring in the playoffs.

There is no doubt in my mind that Maurice Richard is the #1 playoff goal-scorer of all-time.

(That's not to say he's the #1 player, or that he's better than Mario overall.)


So, just consider that before you vote....

Nice post.

Indeed Richard's playoff goal scoring is unmatched. Most games probably against HOF goalies also.

 

[MXD]

My biggest issue with Richard is that I'm not even sure he was the best NHL playoff performer during his prime, which, for current purposes, would end in 1953.

I didn't expect wondering about whether I'm ranking Richard in the Top-5. But there I am.

 

[bobholly39]

Before you decide your votes, remember that Maurice Richard scored 82 playoff goals in 133 playoff games, in a very low-scoring era. In fact, if you ignore his final two playoffs (when he was 37 and 38 years old, which is like being 45 now), he scored 81 in 121, which is 0.67 GPG.

Super-Mario is resting at an outstanding 0.71 GPG, with almost 80% of his career games in a much-higher scoring period than Richard ever saw.

In other words, Maurice Richard was better than Mario at goal-scoring in the playoffs.

There is no doubt in my mind that Maurice Richard is the #1 playoff goal-scorer of all-time.

(That's not to say he's the #1 player, or that he's better than Mario overall.)


So, just consider that before you vote....

Yeah. Definitely great playoff resume. Wasn't speaking as if i'd knock him down too too much. Going into this i thought he had a real shot at #1 overall though, right now i don't think so at all anymore. That's more what i meant from my comment. Didn't mean he was "bad" in anyway.

But yes, i'll keep all that in mind

 

[MXD]

Also, I know right away that I won't be ranking Joe Sakic very high, because he's very clearly the worse (or, at the very least, less dominant) player in that group, but there's definitely something to be said for his OT game log.