Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Hardyvan123

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Uhhh no, as I said earlier, I don't consider the AHL, skillwise, above all Euro leagues but the AHL does make up ground on them by playing the schedule they do.
It takes more than just skill or ability to make and succeed in the NHL. Being able to play at that high skill level for and endure the much longer NHL schedule is also a big factor.

The shortened schedule in Europe probably has as much, or as little affect overall as the difference between a G in New York or Edmonton/Vancouver. In any case for guys from overseas or guys from US college the affect is minimal and lasts for no longer than 1 season.



Dealt with earlier in this thread and the other thread. The gap between Hasek and Roy in team strength is not nearly what you or many others try to make it out to be.
Nor did Roy's AV teams have anything close to having just a walk in the park to the Cup finals every year in that Western Conference.

The Gap between Broduer/Roys teams overall to Hasek was bigger than the gap that you often cite but it's obvious it's a pick and choose argument for you.



It's not about differing rules, it's about assigning weight. That will always be subjective on a person to person basis but assigning equal weight to Hasek's Czech league seasons vs Roy/Brodeur's NHL seasons is as extreme and ridiculous as assigning no weight to it.

Well on a scale of 0-100 and your no weight argument being 0, we could quite easily assign 60-75% weight to Haseks time in Europe but it will be interesting how you treat Tretiak in this regard.

The two arguments are quite different here.

I think it's going to get really interesting when we get past the top 5 and the differences between goalies really becomes very small.
 

Rhiessan71

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The shortened schedule in Europe probably has as much, or as little affect overall as the difference between a G in New York or Edmonton/Vancouver. In any case for guys from overseas or guys from US college the affect is minimal and lasts for no longer than 1 season.

Prove it!


The Gap between Broduer/Roys teams overall to Hasek was bigger than the gap that you often cite but it's obvious it's a pick and choose argument for you.

Buffalo 96/97 92 points, 1rst in their division, 3rd in the conference, lost in round 2
Buffalo 97/98 89 points, 3rd in their division, 6th in the conference, lost in round 3
Buffalo 98/99 91 points, tied for 3rd in their division, 5th in the conference, lost in the finals
Buffalo 99/00 85 points, 3rd in their division, 8th in the conference, lost in round 1
Buffalo 00/01 98 points, 2nd in division, 4th in the conference, lost in round 2
Detroit 01/02 116 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, won Cup
02/03 took a year off
Detroit 03/04 109 points, first in division, first in league, lost in round 2 (Hasek was injured for most of the season including the playoffs)
04/05 Lockout
05/06 Ottawa 113 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, lost in round 2 (Hasek missed the last half of the season including the playoffs due to "injury")
06/07 Detroit 113 points, 1rst in division, tied for 1rst in league, lost in round 3
07/08 Detroit 115 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, won Cup (Hasek lost starting job to Osgood early in the first round and rode the bench the rest of the way)





Well on a scale of 0-100 and your no weight argument being 0, we could quite easily assign 60-75% weight to Haseks time in Europe but it will be interesting how you treat Tretiak in this regard.

Assigning 60-75% is a far cry from the equal weight you were talking about earlier that got me started on this in the first place, now isn't it?
:handclap::handclap::handclap:
 

tsujimoto74

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Buffalo 96/97 92 points, 1rst in their division, 3rd in the conference, lost in round 2
Buffalo 97/98 89 points, 3rd in their division, 6th in the conference, lost in round 3
Buffalo 98/99 91 points, tied for 3rd in their division, 5th in the conference, lost in the finals
Buffalo 99/00 85 points, 3rd in their division, 8th in the conference, lost in round 1
Buffalo 00/01 98 points, 2nd in division, 4th in the conference, lost in round 2
Detroit 01/02 116 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, won Cup
02/03 took a year off
Detroit 03/04 109 points, first in division, first in league, lost in round 2 (Hasek was injured for most of the season including the playoffs)
04/05 Lockout
05/06 Ottawa 113 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, lost in round 2 (Hasek missed the last half of the season including the playoffs due to "injury")
06/07 Detroit 113 points, 1rst in division, tied for 1rst in league, lost in round 3
07/08 Detroit 115 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, won Cup (Hasek lost starting job to Osgood early in the first round and rode the bench the rest of the way)

Wait, so you're citing a decent team record, by a team that was entirely carried by Hasek, as an argument against him?
The best players Hasek regularly had in front of him in his prime were Peca and Satan. Miles and miles away from having, say, Forsberg and Sakic in front of you.
 

Canadiens1958

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Wait, so you're citing a decent team record, by a team that was entirely carried by Hasek, as an argument against him?
The best players Hasek regularly had in front of him in his prime were Peca and Satan. Miles and miles away from having, say, Forsberg and Sakic in front of you.

Michael Peca pretty well reduced Mario Lemieux to a non-factor. Detailed earlier in this thread. Neither Forsberg nor Sakic were close to Peca's defensive game.
 

Rhiessan71

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Wait, so you're citing a decent team record, by a team that was entirely carried by Hasek, as an argument against him?
The best players Hasek regularly had in front of him in his prime were Peca and Satan. Miles and miles away from having, say, Forsberg and Sakic in front of you.

Oh look, name dropping again :rolleyes:

Yet when he had Lafontaine, Mogilny and Hawerchuk in front of him, they didn't place any better, usually worse and had even less success in the playoffs.

Enough with the name dropping, it's not a factor.
 

quoipourquoi

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I'm going to ask one more time in the hope that it get answers before the vote:

What are the adjustments that a European goaltender must make in order to become a successful NHL goaltender? I can buy Hasek coming over and contending for some top-ten save percentage spots in the regular season to bridge the gap between himself (11) and Patrick Roy (15), but given what we saw from him in 1990-1993 - whether it was confidence, drive, the weight of his pads, refinement, or simply his talent level at that age - I don't see him being a Vezina contender.

But why were things so much different for Roman Cechmanek? Why was he able to come to North America in 2000-01, dominate what extremely little time he spent in AHL, steal Brian Boucher's job, post the highest save percentage among the starting goalies who made the playoffs, accumulate 10 SOs in 59 Games, finish 4th in Hart voting, and narrowly lose out in the Vezina and 1st Team All-Star races (which I personally disagree with) in his first season out of Europe?

If you believe that Hasek was good enough to be competing for Vezina Trophies when he was winning the Golden Stick and Best Goaltender awards, how do you rectify Cechmanek coming into the NHL and becoming arguably the best goaltender in the league in his first year while Hasek could not? I think the adjustment argument is overblown. I believe that if Hasek was truly in his prime (as Cechmanek was in 2000), then he would have made a similar impact in his first season as opposed to his fourth.
 

Morgoth Bauglir

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I'm going to ask one more time in the hope that it get answers before the vote:

What are the adjustments that a European goaltender must make in order to become a successful NHL goaltender? I can buy Hasek coming over and contending for some top-ten save percentage spots in the regular season to bridge the gap between himself (11) and Patrick Roy (15), but given what we saw from him in 1990-1993 - whether it was confidence, drive, the weight of his pads, refinement, or simply his talent level at that age - I don't see him being a Vezina contender.

But why were things so much different for Roman Cechmanek? Why was he able to come to North America in 2000-01, dominate what extremely little time he spent in AHL, steal Brian Boucher's job, post the highest save percentage among the starting goalies who made the playoffs, accumulate 10 SOs in 59 Games, finish 4th in Hart voting, and narrowly lose out in the Vezina and 1st Team All-Star races (which I personally disagree with) in his first season out of Europe?

If you believe that Hasek was good enough to be competing for Vezina Trophies when he was winning the Golden Stick and Best Goaltender awards, how do you rectify Cechmanek coming into the NHL and becoming arguably the best goaltender in the league in his first year while Hasek could not? I think the adjustment argument is overblown. I believe that if Hasek was truly in his prime (as Cechmanek was in 2000), then he would have made a similar impact in his first season as opposed to his fourth.

According to someone in another thread there was some sort of "conspiracy" in Chicago to keep Hasek down, as opposed to my simpler explanation that he wasn't good enough at that point in his career to beat out Belfour ;)
 

Canadiens1958

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I'm going to ask one more time in the hope that it get answers before the vote:

What are the adjustments that a European goaltender must make in order to become a successful NHL goaltender? I can buy Hasek coming over and contending for some top-ten save percentage spots in the regular season to bridge the gap between himself (11) and Patrick Roy (15), but given what we saw from him in 1990-1993 - whether it was confidence, drive, the weight of his pads, refinement, or simply his talent level at that age - I don't see him being a Vezina contender.

But why were things so much different for Roman Cechmanek? Why was he able to come to North America in 2000-01, dominate what extremely little time he spent in AHL, steal Brian Boucher's job, post the highest save percentage among the starting goalies who made the playoffs, accumulate 10 SOs in 59 Games, finish 4th in Hart voting, and narrowly lose out in the Vezina and 1st Team All-Star races (which I personally disagree with) in his first season out of Europe?

If you believe that Hasek was good enough to be competing for Vezina Trophies when he was winning the Golden Stick and Best Goaltender awards, how do you rectify Cechmanek coming into the NHL and becoming arguably the best goaltender in the league in his first year while Hasek could not? I think the adjustment argument is overblown. I believe that if Hasek was truly in his prime (as Cechmanek was in 2000), then he would have made a similar impact in his first season as opposed to his fourth.

Biggest adjustment is rink size going from the longer, wider international rink to the standard NHL rink 200' x 85'. Hasek had the additional difficulty of starting in Chicago - Stadium and Buffalo - The Aud, which were somewhat smaller than the NHL standard so adjustments would have to be made home and away. IHL Milwaukee featured a standard NHL rink.

Other adjustments would include. Puckhandling, especially defending the dump and chase, rarely played in Europe. Communicating on the ice with his teammates, a key to efficient defensive play. Learning the teammates and opposing players.

Plus an extensive range of off ice factors.
 

Hardyvan123

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Prove it!

Prove your point then, actually we can see it in many players in their 1st year in the NHL in spring when they hit a bit of a wall, just like the sophomore jink.

Buffalo 96/97 92 points, 1rst in their division, 3rd in the conference, lost in round 2
Buffalo 97/98 89 points, 3rd in their division, 6th in the conference, lost in round 3
Buffalo 98/99 91 points, tied for 3rd in their division, 5th in the conference, lost in the finals
Buffalo 99/00 85 points, 3rd in their division, 8th in the conference, lost in round 1
Buffalo 00/01 98 points, 2nd in division, 4th in the conference, lost in round 2
Detroit 01/02 116 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, won Cup
02/03 took a year off
Detroit 03/04 109 points, first in division, first in league, lost in round 2 (Hasek was injured for most of the season including the playoffs)
04/05 Lockout
05/06 Ottawa 113 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, lost in round 2 (Hasek missed the last half of the season including the playoffs due to "injury")
06/07 Detroit 113 points, 1rst in division, tied for 1rst in league, lost in round 3
07/08 Detroit 115 points, 1rst in division, 1rst in league, won Cup (Hasek lost starting job to Osgood early in the first round and rode the bench the rest of the way)

why are you excluding the 94,95,96 seasons were Hasek was a starter?

Also I know the standings, how about looking at the lineups and the guys that were known as great defensive, or even great players period on those buffalo teams?

Of course all of this is pointless are you already have the answers here like usual and decided to cherry pick selective seasons only.


Assigning 60-75% is a far cry from the equal weight you were talking about earlier that got me started on this in the first place, now isn't it?
:handclap::handclap::handclap:

Like usual you are putting words in another guys mouth, no season is exactly equal but seasons in Europe are worth something right?

Go back and show me were I was putting equal weight into specific seasons.
 
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Hardyvan123

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According to someone in another thread there was some sort of "conspiracy" in Chicago to keep Hasek down, as opposed to my simpler explanation that he wasn't good enough at that point in his career to beat out Belfour ;)

It doesn't take a conspiracy but there is Mike Keenan who wasn't conventional with the way he handled goaltenders, who are an odd lot to begin with.

Throw in Ed Belfour and jimmy Waite who was a 1st round draft pick and rightly or wrongly there is pressure to see those guys succeed more than a free agent signing from Europe, especially more so in the early 90's.

Different coach and or different organization maybe the transition is smoother but it's not like he didn't have no resume at a high level at 26 when he came over either.

I can easily see 3 guys at #1 depending on each voters criteria here.

Each guy has their strengths and weaknesses as well in their arguments.

That being said Haseks early North American years are the weak point in his legacy but man way too much is being made of this.
 

Morgoth Bauglir

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It doesn't take a conspiracy but there is Mike Keenan who wasn't conventional with the way he handled goaltenders, who are an odd lot to begin with.

Throw in Ed Belfour and jimmy Waite who was a 1st round draft pick and rightly or wrongly there is pressure to see those guys succeed more than a free agent signing from Europe, especially more so in the early 90's.

Different coach and or different organization maybe the transition is smoother but it's not like he didn't have no resume at a high level at 26 when he came over either.

I can easily see 3 guys at #1 depending on each voters criteria here.

Each guy has their strengths and weaknesses as well in their arguments.

That being said Haseks early North American years are the weak point in his legacy but man way too much is being made of this.

When someone is claiming that Hasek should have been playing and not the dude who won the Vezina that year it's not too hard to call BS on it. Hasek hadn't shown that at that point in time he was better than Belfour. No conspiracy about it and no funky coaching: Belfour won the Vezina that year and Hasek wasn't at that level yet. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp.
 

Theokritos

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Hasek getting promoted early probably just means he was a very talented junior. Which is not surprising considering his career as a senior. You are not going to convince me that Eric Lindros wasn't better at 16 than some NHL players at 25. Doesn't make either league any worse.

Yes, if Eric Lindros was European he would have made his debut in the elite league at 16 or 17 as well, no doubt.

Namely, a much denser and physically demanding schedule that has about 60% more games per season.

It actually seems that in the second half of the 1980s Hašek usually played more games per season than Patrick Roy. Check out the numbers in post #571 and compare Roy:

1985-86: 47+20=67 (11 less than Hašek)
1986-87: 46+6=52 (23 less than Hašek)
1987-88: 45+8=53 (7 less than Hašek)
1988-89: 48+19=67 (1 more than Hašek)
1989-90: 54+11=65 (14 more than Hašek)

When someone is claiming that Hasek should have been playing and not the dude who won the Vezina that year it's not too hard to call BS on it.

Okay, but on the other hand: how much of an argument against Hašek is it that the guy who kept him out was the Vezina winner? Hašek could have been the second best goalie in the NHL that year and wouldn't have played...
 

Rhiessan71

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It actually seems that in the second half of the 1980s Hašek usually played more games per season than Patrick Roy. Check out the numbers in post #571 and compare Roy:

1985-86: 47+20=67 (11 less than Hašek)
1986-87: 46+6=52 (23 less than Hašek)
1987-88: 45+8=53 (7 less than Hašek)
1988-89: 48+19=67 (1 more than Hašek)
1989-90: 54+11=65 (14 more than Hašek)

Ok, I guess I should of checked those numbers out when they were first posted.
From what I can find those numbers should be...

1985-86: 47+20=67 (13 less than Roy)
1986-87: 46+6=52 (Equal)
1987-88: 45+8=53 (11 less than Roy)
1988-89: 48+19=67 (10 less than Roy)
1989-90: 54+11=65 (17 less than Roy)

Sooo...I'm really not sure where those other numbers came from. That's a pretty drastic difference.
 

Rhiessan71

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Like usual you are putting words in another guys mouth, no season is exactly equal but seasons in Europe are worth something right?

Go back and show me were I was putting equal weight into specific seasons.

Am I now?
The bottom line is that Hasek makes up the gap with his non NHL career IMO.

Brodeur 1191 NHL Regular Season + 205 Playoff games (1396)
Roy 1029 NHL Regular Season + 247 Playoff games (1276)
Hasek 735 NHL Regular Season + 119 Playoff games (854)

Are you honestly trying to contend that Hasek's 460 or so Czech league + KHL + IHL games should make up the 294+128 NHL game gap to Roy or the 456+86 NHL gap to Brodeur?

In all fairness I can see something being made of SOME of Hasek's Canada Cup/World cup, Worlds and Olympic games. More on Roy than on Brodeur but still, those are huge gaps, especially in playoff games.

Again, making up some ground, for sure. Actually bridging the gaps...no way in hell.

I mean if he came to the NHL and, like was mentioned by another poster, he had of made an immediate impact like Cechmanek did, there could be a lot more weight added to his pre non-NHL resume but he didn't. It took him till his 4th season to do that so I just don't see any basis for that argument.
 
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MadArcand

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If you believe that Hasek was good enough to be competing for Vezina Trophies when he was winning the Golden Stick and Best Goaltender awards, how do you rectify Cechmanek coming into the NHL and becoming arguably the best goaltender in the league in his first year while Hasek could not? I think the adjustment argument is overblown. I believe that if Hasek was truly in his prime (as Cechmanek was in 2000), then he would have made a similar impact in his first season as opposed to his fourth.
Take a look at how many European goalies started out as starters right away before the late 90s. It's the grand total of one, Tommy Soderstrom, and even that was a 1A platoon situation. There was a strong anti-European-goalie bias back then, a widespread belief that they have a hard time adjusting their game when they come over, and thus that they're a gamble.

Besides, ousting a Vezina-form Belfour and ousting heavily slumping Brian Boucher are slightly different tasks. Not to mention the Keenan factor (man loved his starters to death).
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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If you believe that Hasek was good enough to be competing for Vezina Trophies when he was winning the Golden Stick and Best Goaltender awards, how do you rectify Cechmanek coming into the NHL and becoming arguably the best goaltender in the league in his first year while Hasek could not? I think the adjustment argument is overblown. I believe that if Hasek was truly in his prime (as Cechmanek was in 2000), then he would have made a similar impact in his first season as opposed to his fourth.

I believe the adjustment argument is overblown too. I think all Hasek needed was the opportunity to play, because as I've already demonstrated I think quite sufficiently, he had a pattern of slow starts throughout his career and his numbers got better as the season went on, even in the early years. Mid- to late-season Hasek in '91, '92 and '93 was among the best goalies in the league. All he needed was an extended chance to prove it.

I'm not sure why you're trying to have it both ways here: You seem to be very quick to criticize Hasek for starting slow (which is not necessarily the same thing as being underprepared, although it is possible), and then at the same time you point at his entire season stats or lack of starts as evidence that he wasn't good enough even though when he was in his stride his numbers were up with anybody else's.

There's also the factor of goalie competition, which is easily the single most important factor that determines how quickly a goalie progresses in any organization. Obviously you're claiming that Roman Cechmanek was better than Brian Boucher in 2000-01. How come Cechmanek didn't beat him out in camp then? How come Boucher got 10 of the first 12 starts? The fact is that it was more a case of Boucher losing the starting job (.885 by that point in the season) than Cechmanek winning it. Incumbent bias means you have to massively outplay the guy who is already there to win his job.

You can't say both that Cechmanek came in and dominated all comers, and at the same time criticize Hasek for his early season performance and not winning starting jobs in training camp, because Cechmanek didn't do that either.

In the fall of 1990, Chicago had five goalies at camp, Ed Belfour, Jimmy Waite, Jacques Cloutier and Greg Millen, a veteran starter. Cloutier had been the regular season starter in '89-90, and all three of Millen, Cloutier and Belfour played for the Hawks in the 1990 postseason. Waite was a highly-rated first round pick, the highest drafted goalie in ten years of entry drafts. Hasek was pretty much up against two incumbent starters, a top prospect, and a guy with playoff experience who would go on to be voted the best goalie in the league that season. It was quite simply easily the most crowded crease situation in the league.

Pretending that it was some sort of normal situation is just denying reality. And yet, with only 5 games played in the NHL that year, Hasek still managed to beat out three of them over the course of that season because he was the guy backing up Belfour in the playoffs in 1991.

To illustrate the difference, let's talk about what would have been the most likely scenario if Hasek had come over for the 1987-88 season, when according to Legends of Hockey the Hawks were trying to get him and reportedly offered a contract that would have made Hasek the third-highest player in Chicago, a deal that would have made no sense at all unless they were counting on him to be their starting NHL goalie.

Hasek wouldn't have had to deal with Mike Keenan, who was coaching Philadelphia at the time, and Hasek himself would have been the top prospect that the team was giving all the opportunities too, because Jimmy Waite was still in the QMJHL. Hasek's crease competition would have been 23-year old Darren Pang, who had all of one game of NHL experience at the time, and 22-year old Ed Belfour, who was coming out of college hockey and in his first year as a pro spent that whole season in the IHL. Maybe Bob Mason as well, who the Hawks picked up as a free agent over the summer but may not have been signed if Hasek was in the picture.

What would most likely have happened then is that Hasek would have come in and started slowly, probably because he would have needed at least a few games to adjust to the NHL talent level and also because that's just what he did, and yet the team would have kept giving him starts anyway because they had a large investment in him, there was no incumbent starter who had a claim to the job, and the only other option would have been Darren Pang. It is likely Hasek would have spent no time in the minor leagues, and if he followed his actual pattern of performance in the early '90s by the end of the year he would have been playing as well as anybody else in the league.

Now that's a what-if scenario. Maybe it wouldn't have gone as smoothly, nobody knows for sure. What is sure is that teams don't always pick their best goalie in training camp, and that Hasek would have faced a far easier road to the starting job in the fall of 1987 than he did in 1991, 1992 or even 1993.

I'm not giving Hasek any credit for NHL what-ifs in the early 1990s. I don't think anyone else is either. What's really at stake is whether Hasek should get credit for his international play prior to coming over, which I still contend is part of an international resume that should rank him on a tier with Jiri Holecek. I see no reason to devalue that based on his early NHL season results. And fully crediting Hasek for international achievement pretty much seals the deal for him as #1 all-time, in my opinion, because I think you can already make the case for Hasek as #1 just based on his NHL performance alone.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Take a look at how many European goalies started out as starters right away before the late 90s. It's the grand total of one, Tommy Soderstrom, and even that was a 1A platoon situation. There was a strong anti-European-goalie bias back then, a widespread belief that they have a hard time adjusting their game when they come over, and thus that they're a gamble.

Besides, ousting a Vezina-form Belfour and ousting heavily slumping Brian Boucher are slightly different tasks. Not to mention the Keenan factor (man loved his starters to death).

Same Mike Keenan who as a rookie coach in 1984-85, chose Pelle Lindbergh, who had struggled to make the NHL previously, as his #1 and went to the SC finals.

European goalies in NA go back to the WHA - Christer Abrahamsson, Markus Mattson, Curt Larsson were effectively handed #1 jobs only to play themselves out of the #1 role.

Kari Takko did not impress in opportunities with Minnesota, Sergei Mylnikov in 1989-90 in Quebec on a team in desperate need of a veteran goalie presence did not impress.

Dominik Hasek in the 1992 playoff brought a bit of a "Wow" factor, on an individual level, when he played - game 4 of the finals being a prime example but there was very little team defensive cohesiveness like you saw with Belfour.
 

MadArcand

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Same Mike Keenan who as a rookie coach in 1984-85, chose Pelle Lindbergh, who had struggled to make the NHL previously, as his #1 and went to the SC finals.
Yes, same Mike Keenan, who once he picked his starter, he played the hell out of him, giving limited time to backups. With Belfour playing great, it was logical and typical for Keenan to keep playing him as much as possible.
 

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Anybody looking to disparage European leagues in the 1980s needs to look at the Super Series results between Soviet teams and NHL teams from 1986 to 1991. CSKA Moscow went 21-5-1 against NHL teams over that stretch, while the other Soviet teams combined for a record of 22-27-6. The Soviet teams probably had a bit more to play for than the NHL teams did, but they were certainly competitive at the very least.

Secondly, the results of the European Champions Cup tournament indicate that the Czechoslovakian league was clearly the second-strongest in Europe. CSKA Moscow won it every year from 1980 to 1990, but Czech teams finished second six times and third three times, including 1988 when Hasek's Tesla Pardubice finished second, narrowly losing 2-1 to CSKA Moscow in the deciding game. To put that into perspective, Finnish teams medaled five times, German teams four times and Swedish teams three.

All that said, I'm not even sure why league strength is particularly important when talking about individual goalies and whether they are able to compete against NHL talent or on the international level. In recent years we've seen European-trained goalies play in the NHL from countries like France, Germany and especially Switzerland. Leif Holmqvist was given an NHL tryout by the Bruins in 1968, I believe long before any other Swedish skater was considered. Finland was producing goalies like Urpo Ylonen and Jorma Valtonen in the early 1970s at a time when their national program wasn't very strong. It's way easier to produce one elite goalie than a team of elite skaters. Contrast that with the Russians, who produced comparatively few elite goalies even though they had the best European league and their goalies were facing some of the best shooters in the world.

I think the evidence strongly suggests that coaching and technical development are more important for producing elite goalies than quality of competition. The Euro goalie invasion from Finland and Sweden in the last decade came because those two countries have invested lots of resources in training goalies, not because their domestic leagues suddenly improved. I guess it's better for a goalie's resume to show accomplishments from better leagues than weaker ones, but what really matters is how good they are, not how good everyone around them is.
 

Canadiens1958

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International Results and Dominik Hasek

I believe the adjustment argument is overblown too. I think all Hasek needed was the opportunity to play, because as I've already demonstrated I think quite sufficiently, he had a pattern of slow starts throughout his career and his numbers got better as the season went on, even in the early years. Mid- to late-season Hasek in '91, '92 and '93 was among the best goalies in the league. All he needed was an extended chance to prove it.

I'm not sure why you're trying to have it both ways here: You seem to be very quick to criticize Hasek for starting slow (which is not necessarily the same thing as being underprepared, although it is possible), and then at the same time you point at his entire season stats or lack of starts as evidence that he wasn't good enough even though when he was in his stride his numbers were up with anybody else's.

There's also the factor of goalie competition, which is easily the single most important factor that determines how quickly a goalie progresses in any organization. Obviously you're claiming that Roman Cechmanek was better than Brian Boucher in 2000-01. How come Cechmanek didn't beat him out in camp then? How come Boucher got 10 of the first 12 starts? The fact is that it was more a case of Boucher losing the starting job (.885 by that point in the season) than Cechmanek winning it. Incumbent bias means you have to massively outplay the guy who is already there to win his job.

You can't say both that Cechmanek came in and dominated all comers, and at the same time criticize Hasek for his early season performance and not winning starting jobs in training camp, because Cechmanek didn't do that either.

In the fall of 1990, Chicago had five goalies at camp, Ed Belfour, Jimmy Waite, Jacques Cloutier and Greg Millen, a veteran starter. Cloutier had been the regular season starter in '89-90, and all three of Millen, Cloutier and Belfour played for the Hawks in the 1990 postseason. Waite was a highly-rated first round pick, the highest drafted goalie in ten years of entry drafts. Hasek was pretty much up against two incumbent starters, a top prospect, and a guy with playoff experience who would go on to be voted the best goalie in the league that season. It was quite simply easily the most crowded crease situation in the league.

Pretending that it was some sort of normal situation is just denying reality. And yet, with only 5 games played in the NHL that year, Hasek still managed to beat out three of them over the course of that season because he was the guy backing up Belfour in the playoffs in 1991.

To illustrate the difference, let's talk about what would have been the most likely scenario if Hasek had come over for the 1987-88 season, when according to Legends of Hockey the Hawks were trying to get him and reportedly offered a contract that would have made Hasek the third-highest player in Chicago, a deal that would have made no sense at all unless they were counting on him to be their starting NHL goalie.

Hasek wouldn't have had to deal with Mike Keenan, who was coaching Philadelphia at the time, and Hasek himself would have been the top prospect that the team was giving all the opportunities too, because Jimmy Waite was still in the QMJHL. Hasek's crease competition would have been 23-year old Darren Pang, who had all of one game of NHL experience at the time, and 22-year old Ed Belfour, who was coming out of college hockey and in his first year as a pro spent that whole season in the IHL. Maybe Bob Mason as well, who the Hawks picked up as a free agent over the summer but may not have been signed if Hasek was in the picture.

What would most likely have happened then is that Hasek would have come in and started slowly, probably because he would have needed at least a few games to adjust to the NHL talent level and also because that's just what he did, and yet the team would have kept giving him starts anyway because they had a large investment in him, there was no incumbent starter who had a claim to the job, and the only other option would have been Darren Pang. It is likely Hasek would have spent no time in the minor leagues, and if he followed his actual pattern of performance in the early '90s by the end of the year he would have been playing as well as anybody else in the league.

Now that's a what-if scenario. Maybe it wouldn't have gone as smoothly, nobody knows for sure. What is sure is that teams don't always pick their best goalie in training camp, and that Hasek would have faced a far easier road to the starting job in the fall of 1987 than he did in 1991, 1992 or even 1993.

I'm not giving Hasek any credit for NHL what-ifs in the early 1990s. I don't think anyone else is either. What's really at stake is whether Hasek should get credit for his international play prior to coming over, which I still contend is part of an international resume that should rank him on a tier with Jiri Holecek. I see no reason to devalue that based on his early NHL season results. And fully crediting Hasek for international achievement pretty much seals the deal for him as #1 all-time, in my opinion, because I think you can already make the case for Hasek as #1 just based on his NHL performance alone.

Plenty of what if scenarios the overlook what actually happened. In order as presented above.

1991 Hawks training camp was post 1991 Canada Cup where the Czechoslovakian team with Dominik Hasek as the #1 goalie wound up last:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Canada_Cup

Despite having a conditioning edge and game competition edge on the other Hawk goalies, Hasek did not get the job done and was again demoted.

1987-88 scenario - again was post 1987 Canada Cup and post 1986 and 1987 WHC. Hasek was not impressive early - Czechs wound up 4th in the 1987 CC and lost a 2-0 lead with Hasek in nets in the SF to Canada. 1986 Czech in the WHC failed to qualify for the Final round, 1987 finished second. Overall, nothing special early or late.

Set in Buffalo, familiar with the defence and forwards in 1994-95 Hasek played 10 of the first 12 games and produced a .943SV% in 4h/6A games.

Teams evolve over a season as do goaltenders. Which is why at times goalies can impress late in a season - Ken Dryden 1971.
This does not mean that the season opening roster was incorrectly chosen.
 
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Sanf

Registered User
Sep 8, 2012
2,003
941
Ok, I guess I should of checked those numbers out when they were first posted.
From what I can find those numbers should be...

1985-86: 47+20=67 (13 less than Roy)
1986-87: 46+6=52 (Equal)
1987-88: 45+8=53 (11 less than Roy)
1988-89: 48+19=67 (10 less than Roy)
1989-90: 54+11=65 (17 less than Roy)

Sooo...I'm really not sure where those other numbers came from. That's a pretty drastic difference.

Biggest apologies. I misunderstood the czech league statistics and double counted the playoffs. :( So the argument is not that good anymore.

Here is yet again new results.
1984-1985 49 GP
1985-1986 65 GP
1986-1987 66 GP
1987-1988 51 GP
1988-1989 56 GP
1989-1990 51 GP
(those numbers still misses atleast the Eurocup games)
But because my credibility has gone everybody can check them out by themselfs. Here you can find the national team results from season by season.

http://hokej.hansal.cz/cze_arch.html
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Tryouts/Skaters/Goalies

Anybody looking to disparage European leagues in the 1980s needs to look at the Super Series results between Soviet teams and NHL teams from 1986 to 1991. CSKA Moscow went 21-5-1 against NHL teams over that stretch, while the other Soviet teams combined for a record of 22-27-6. The Soviet teams probably had a bit more to play for than the NHL teams did, but they were certainly competitive at the very least.

Secondly, the results of the European Champions Cup tournament indicate that the Czechoslovakian league was clearly the second-strongest in Europe. CSKA Moscow won it every year from 1980 to 1990, but Czech teams finished second six times and third three times, including 1988 when Hasek's Tesla Pardubice finished second, narrowly losing 2-1 to CSKA Moscow in the deciding game. To put that into perspective, Finnish teams medaled five times, German teams four times and Swedish teams three.

All that said, I'm not even sure why league strength is particularly important when talking about individual goalies and whether they are able to compete against NHL talent or on the international level. In recent years we've seen European-trained goalies play in the NHL from countries like France, Germany and especially Switzerland. Leif Holmqvist was given an NHL tryout by the Bruins in 1968, I believe long before any other Swedish skater was considered. Finland was producing goalies like Urpo Ylonen and Jorma Valtonen in the early 1970s at a time when their national program wasn't very strong. It's way easier to produce one elite goalie than a team of elite skaters. Contrast that with the Russians, who produced comparatively few elite goalies even though they had the best European league and their goalies were facing some of the best shooters in the world.

I think the evidence strongly suggests that coaching and technical development are more important for producing elite goalies than quality of competition. The Euro goalie invasion from Finland and Sweden in the last decade came because those two countries have invested lots of resources in training goalies, not because their domestic leagues suddenly improved. I guess it's better for a goalie's resume to show accomplishments from better leagues than weaker ones, but what really matters is how good they are, not how good everyone around them is.

Let's look at Sweden - Sven Tumba had a training camp tryout with the Bruins in 1958,played 5 games in the QHL - old amateur try-out rules, with Quebec in the QHL. Ulf Sterner had a tryout with the Rangers during the 1964-65 season - 4 games after playing the early part of the season in the farm system - CHL - St.Paul, AHL - Baltimore.

Late 1940s saw some of the great Czech skaters offered tryouts in the NHL..Yet the first really good Czech goalies came about a generation later.

Finland is interesting. Their goaltending peaked well after their forwards made their mark in the NHL defensively and offensively - Kurri, Selanne, Saku Koivu, Lehtinen.

Same is true for the Soviets. Great offensive skaters in the fifties, Tretial about a generation later.

Canada likewise. Great skaters from the origins of hockey. Goalies about a generation later - Vezina, Benedict. USA - Hobey Baker, well before Brimsek or even Karakas.

Poland, France - Philippe Bozon was a generation before Huet, the two German teams produced teams-skaters that could compete and surprise at the Worlds - beating the Soviets and Czechs.
surprise the Soviets. Britain produced Tony Hand yet we are still waiting for a great or even an average British goalie.

Switzerland was solid into the early fifties then under prioritized hockey for about two generations. Still Pauli Jaks came well after skaters were developed.

Goalies do not develop in a vacuum.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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Feb 28, 2007
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Plenty of what if scenarios the overlook what actually happened. In order as presented above.

1991 Hawks training camp was post 1991 Canada Cup where the Czechoslovakian team with Dominik Hasek as the #1 goalie wound up last:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Canada_Cup

You have your years wrong, unless you're trying to make a point about the 1991-92 season, Hasek's second in the NHL. Hasek's first NHL training camp was in September 1990. The 1991 Canada Cup was in August and September 1991.

As for the 1991 Canada Cup, last place = 6th place, the same result as they had at the world championships the prior spring. The Czech program was in decline in the late '80s. They were winning bronze medals at the world championships in the years that Hasek was voted the best goalie there. Pointing to team success as evidence of Hasek's play is a weak argument.

1987-88 scenario - again was post 1987 Canada Cup and post 1986 and 1987 WHC. Hasek was not impressive early - Czechs wound up 4th in the 1987 CC and lost a 2-0 lead with Hasek in nets in the SF to Canada. 1986 Czech in the WHC failed to qualify for the Final round, 1987 finished second. Overall, nothing special early or late.

Again, fourth place for the Czechs at a best-on-best at that point in time was a solid finish. Hasek did very well in the 1987 Canada Cup.

Set in Buffalo, familiar with the defence and forwards in 1995-96 Hasek played 10 of the first 12 games and produced a .943SV% in 4h/6A games.

I'm assuming you mean 1994-95, because Hasek was at just .918 through his first 10 games played in '95-96. That was a lockout season that started in January, it's not exactly directly comparable and doesn't do much to oppose the argument that Hasek would start slow in September and October. Hasek was familiar with his defence for the rest of his Buffalo career and he still got out of the gate slowly almost every fall anyway.

Teams evolve over a season as do goaltenders. Which is why at times goalies can impress late in a season - Ken Dryden 1971.
This does not mean that the season opening roster was incorrectly chosen.

Not necessarily, but it definitely can be. I'm not talking about late-season callups, though, I'm talking about situations where the backup becomes the starter by November or December, e.g. Cechmanek in 2001.

If it's such a crime to not immediately win the starting job, how come nobody is criticizing Jacques Plante for getting stuck for two years behind Gerry McNeil at the age of 24 and 25? Glenn Hall was stuck behind Terry Sawchuk for three years already, and if the Red Wings didn't start to get concerned about Sawchuk's personal life who knows how long it would have taken for him to emerge as a starting goalie. Dryden was the only goalie of the 7 we're debating here who pretty much just showed up and beat out good goaltending competition for the starting job, although Brodeur beating out Chris Terreri in his first season was not too bad either.

Let's look at Sweden - Sven Tumba had a training camp tryout with the Bruins in 1958,played 5 games in the QHL - old amateur try-out rules, with Quebec in the QHL. Ulf Sterner had a tryout with the Rangers during the 1964-65 season - 4 games after playing the early part of the season in the farm system - CHL - St.Paul, AHL - Baltimore.

I stand corrected about Swedish North American tryouts.

Goalies do not develop in a vacuum.

I sort of agree with this statement. I highly doubt, for example, that a very low-tier hockey country would ever train an NHL Vezina candidate. But any first division country apparently can. All the top countries have gone through periods of booms and busts in terms of goaltending talent, and they don't seem to correlate with how good that country is overall or how good their domestic leagues are.
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
1969 Playoffs/St. Louis - Jacques Plante

After his New York Ranger days, knee injury, brief retirement with a cameo against the Soviet Nationals in 1965, Jacques Plante returned to the NHL for the 1968-69 season with the St. Louis Blues. Plante shared the regular season workload, mainly with Glenn Hall. Scotty Bowman managed both very effectively. Jacques Plante was sold to Toronto in the 1970 off-season.

Data culled from the HSP project and reference to BM67 post #123 this thread.

1969 Quarter Finals vs PHILADELPHIA

Game 1 - Home, PHIL 2 ST.L 4,Hall 11:00 (8/8) (8/0/0) Plante 49:00
(27/29) (10/6/13) 12:13 (2-1)

Game 2 - Home, PHIL 0 ST.L 5, (21/21) (6/6/9),shutout.
Game 3 - Away, PHIL 0 ST.L 3, (27/27), (8/12/7),shutout.
Game 4 - Away, PHIL 1 ST.L 4, (30/31) (10/7/14) First goal 24:54 (4 - 1).

Notes - 1PG game 1, 1st period, 1SHG, game 4, 2nd period.

Jacques Plante SV%

1st period .971 33/34
2nd period .968 30/31
3rd period .977 42/43
Away .983 57/58
Home .960 48/50
Series .972 105/108

1969 Semi Finals vs Los Angeles

Game 1 - Home, LA 0 ST.L 4,(30/30) (11/11/8), shutout.
Game 2 - Home, LA 2 ST.L 3,(26/28) (7/9/10),first goal 42:12 (2-1)
Game 3 - Away, LA 2 ST.L 5,(26/28),(14/8/6),first goal 2:18 (0-1)
Game 4 - Away, LA 1 ST.L 4, (21/22) (9/5/8) First goal 1:48 (0-1).

Notes - 2PG game 3&4, 1st period, 1SHG, game 2, 3rd period.

Jacques Plante SV%

1st period .927 38/41
2nd period 1.000 33/33
3rd period .938 30/32
Away .940 47/50
Home .966 56/58
Series .954 103/108

1969 Finals vs MONTREAL

Game 1 - Away, MONT 3 ST.L 1,(25/28) (14/5/9), first goal 3:39
Game 2 - Away, MONT 3 ST.L 1, Hall (30/33) (9/15/9), first goal 17:26
Game 3 - Home, MONT 4 ST.L 0, (31/35) (14/13/8), first goal 12:34
Game 4 - Home, MONT 2 ST.L 1, Hall(31/33) (8/14/9), first goal 40:43

Notes - 1PG game 1, 1st period, 1SHG, game 1, 1st period, 1 ENG, 3rd period 1st game.Note HSP lost a goal in game 3 making a period summary awkward.

Jacques Plante SV%

Away .893 25/28
Home .886 31/35
Series .888 56/63
 
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