Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Centers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Except for maybe Frank Nighbor.

Yeah, thought of Nighbor, but I don't think his generation was QUITE as strong as Morenz's, otherwise I would have him in my top 5 as well. (I had Nighbor either 7th or 8th on my list). Seems most (not all) who saw them both play preferred Morenz.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think it's definitely worth a bit of scrutiny to find out exactly where Morenz's game was during his statistical "down" years. 1930 being a good example -- he was right in the middle of his prime, played every game, and didn't come anywhere near the scoring lead against less than overwhelming competition. On the other hand, his scoring line of 40-10-50 looks strangely skewed, so maybe there's more than meets the eye. I think it's worth investing some time to find out.

For anyone who is less familiar with Morenz, I recommend taking a look at the ATD bios that summarize his skills and achievements:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58017755&postcount=4
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44378197&postcount=106

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think it's definitely worth a bit of scrutiny to find out exactly where Morenz's game was during his statistical "down" years. 1930 being a good example -- he was right in the middle of his prime, played every game, and didn't come anywhere near the scoring lead against less than overwhelming competition. On the other hand, his scoring line of 40-10-50 looks strangely skewed, so maybe there's more than meets the eye. I think it's worth investing some time to find out.

For anyone who is less familiar with Morenz, I recommend taking a look at the ATD bios that summarize his skills and achievements:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58017755&postcount=4
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=44378197&postcount=106

1929-30 was such a weird season, I don't think you conclude anything from it. Got rid of the forward pass at the beginning of the year, but didn't add offsides, so scorers could literally just hang out in the offensive zone cherrypicking if they wanted to like in pond hockey. Scoring was so out of control, they banned players from passing between zones halfway through the season.* Three different players - Cooney Weiland, Weiland's linemate Dit Clapper (then a RW), and Hec Kilrea - all had the only top 5 finishes of their careers during that wacky season.

Morenz still finished 7th during his "off" season.

*this was replaced by the modern offsides rule and the red-line/two-line pass in 1944.

What other "down" years does Morenz have? He was top 5 in scoring EVERY season between 1924-25 and 1931-32, except for his 7th place finish in the wacky 1929-30! Did any other player before WW2 have consistency as a scorer like that?[

 

[unknown33]

Just to be clear though, Mario is getting evaluated on his NHL regular season and NHL games and not some "what if" scenario right?

IMO the number of elite games played by others, Wayne, Jean and Stan particularly are enough to put them ahead of Mario for me.

I don't think Mario having more individual accolades than Jean and Stan is based on any 'what if' scenarios.

 

[Sentinel]

FWIW my picks:

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Beliveau
4. Trottier
5. Esposito
6. Morenz
7. Mikita
8. Clarke
9. Messier

 

[Hardyvan123]

Tony Esposito was easily the best player on the 1970s Blackhawks.

Okay position players then, as Clarke and Parent could be a counter and some greats have lousy goalies on their teams.

 

[seventieslord]

1929-30 was such a weird season, I don't think you conclude anything from it. Got rid of the forward pass at the beginning of the year, but didn't add offsides, so scorers could literally just hang out in the offensive zone cherrypicking if they wanted to like in pond hockey. Scoring was so out of control, they banned players from passing between zones halfway through the season.* Three different players - Cooney Weiland, Weiland's linemate Dit Clapper (then a RW), and Hec Kilrea - all had the only top 5 finishes of their careers during that wacky season.

Morenz still finished 7th during his "off" season.

*this was replaced by the modern offsides rule and the red-line/two-line pass in 1944.

What other "down" years does Morenz have? He was top 5 in scoring EVERY season between 1924-25 and 1931-32, except for his 7th place finish in the wacky 1929-30! Did any other player before WW2 have consistency as a scorer like that?[

Cyclone Taylor had five scoring titles in 6 years, the 6th was a cinch if he didn't get injured.

Newsy Lalonde was top 4 in his league in points every year from 1908 to 1923, except for:

- off year in 1922
- injured for most of 1915
- injured for half of 1914... But on pace for 4th
- 5th in 1911

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Cyclone Taylor had five scoring titles in 6 years, the 6th was a cinch if he didn't get injured.

Newsy Lalonde was top 4 in his league in points every year from 1908 to 1923, except for:

- off year in 1922
- injured for most of 1915
- injured for half of 1914... But on pace for 4th
- 5th in 1911

All of those were in the high scoring half leagues that aren't directly comparable to the lower scoring consolidated NHL.

I'm talking the 20 year period between consolidation (and the NHL's first dead puck era of the late 20s) until World War 2. Howie Morenz's year to year consistency was at least as good, if not better than any other player during this time. The only player with similar consistency that I can see was Charlie Conacher, with 5 straight seasons in the top 5, but Conacher did basically nothing of note outside those 5 years, and Conacher was pure goal scorer in an era that undercounted assists (Morenz was fairly balanced although slightly more towards goals than assists). And this is just offense.

1914, 1915? 4th and 5th place finishes in those years would be like 8th and 10th place finishes in a consolidated league. (I realize Morenz's 1925 and 1926 season fall under the same category).

 

[Hardyvan123]

I don't think Mario having more individual accolades than Jean and Stan is based on any 'what if' scenarios.

we all know about Mario's individual accolades, if you don't think that Jean and Stan having more games at an excellent or elite level matter then say so.

It's just one metric (the actual number of games each player had an actual excellent or elite impact) that Mario does very poorly in against most of the guys here. We would pro rate everyone to an 82 game season as in past times the regular season had less games.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

7 players also received 1 vote: Syl Apps, Turk Broda, Aurel Joliat, Newsy Lalonde, Milt Schmidt, Eddie Shore, Nels Stewart

There were a total of 43 voters it looks like, and Morenz got 27 votes (63%). Landslide like you said.

Here's a link to an article about the release of the poll: http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...,2707374&dq=morenz+nighbor+shore+taylor&hl=en

Such polls always favor forwards over defensemen, but still, why does this forum have so much more respect for Eddie Shore than Howie Morenz?




The poll was conducted by "sports editors and sportscasters;" I have no idea why you think they wouldn't have seen Morenz; it was only 13 years since his last hockey game. I mean, you're right that there was probably something of a sympathy vote for Morenz since he died young, but still, 27 of 43 voters?



Well, like I said above, he got 1 vote. His personality could certainly affect some votes, but a sample of 43 sportscasters and reporters? The flip to your argument is that Eddie Shore's "personification of old-time (violent) hockey" is a reason why this forum tends to hold him in higher esteem than Morenz.

I think that on an all-players list, Morenz should be ranked quite close to Shore and there is at least an argument that he should be ranked higher.

4 Hart Trophies would be another reason.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

4 Hart Trophies would be another reason.

Meh, 4-3 difference in Hart Trophies, with Morenz facing significantly better competition in the late 20s/early 30s than Shore did in the mid-late 30s (the quality of forwards seems to have fallen off a cliff in the mid 30s, at least if you believe traditional rankings).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Mikita at age 32 was 4th in black Hawks scoring with 82 points in 57 games, the 3 guys ahead of him (And Bobby Hull was in the WHA now all played in 19,21 and 21 more games with only 9,7 and 7 more points.

In 74 at age 33 he led his team in scoring by 3 points again.

In 75 at age 34 he led his team in scoring by 19 points.

in 76 he fell to earth with only 57 points but it was in 48 GP

Even in his last NHL season at age 38 he was 2nd in his team scoring and probably the best player on the team still.

We are discussing Top 5 centers. How relevant is Mikita's scoring compared to other players on his own team?

Esposito led the Rangers in scoring when he was 34, 35, 36, and 37.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Meh, 4-3 difference in Hart Trophies, with Morenz facing significantly better competition in the late 20s/early 30s than Shore did in the mid-late 30s (the quality of forwards seems to have fallen off a cliff in the mid 30s, at least if you believe traditional rankings).

Just saying, its more than just perception of Shore's game that some of us hold Shore in high esteem.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Esposito is a clear 9th player in this round for me as the more you look at him, the more you see a guy that really benefitted form his conditions, ie the Orr affect.

every other player on this list has a much clearer and better base of a resume and personal affect on the games he played in than Phil did.

5 Art Ross Trophies and none of them were close.

2 Hart Trophies.

Best player, leading scorer and clear leader of Canada in the Summit Series (without Orr).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just saying, its more than just perception of Shore's game that some of us hold Shore in high esteem.

I'm not disagreeing that Shore should be held in high esteem. I just don't understand why he is held in higher esteem than Morenz on this board. "4 Hart Trophies by a defenseman" was a thing until you realize that defensemen were probably slightly favored in Hart voting before WW2. IMO, Morenz should be held in similar esteem.

One argument about Morenz is that he declined after the age of 30, but Shore didn't win his first Hart Trophy until the age of 30.

Plus it's not surprising that someone like Morenz who was so known for his speed declined as he entered his 30s. Here's a newspaper article from 1934 where Morenz (already slightly into his statistical decline) won a Canadian Press Poll for the faster player in the league with 10 of 33 votes: http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...W4NAAAAIBAJ&dq=worters morenz&pg=1894,1369940

The article says that it was an open question as to whether the younger generation (in particular Busher Jackson) had caught up to Morenz in terms of speed, but that 5 years previously there was no question that Morenz was the fastest player in the league.

 

[VanIslander]

I'm not disagreeing that Shore should be held in high esteem. I just don't understand why he is held in higher esteem than Morenz on this board. "4 Hart Trophies by a defenseman" was a thing until you realize that defensemen were probably slightly favored in Hart voting before WW2.

I don't understand how you can say that. In the 14 years of the Hart prior to WWII only Shore and once Seibert were defenders.

We don't need to discount Shore's Harts to emphasize Morenz's importance as a center.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm not disagreeing that Shore should be held in high esteem. I just don't understand why he is held in higher esteem than Morenz on this board. "4 Hart Trophies by a defenseman" was a thing until you realize that defensemen were probably slightly favored in Hart voting before WW2.

Yet no defensemen won a Hart before Shore. And only 2 others won one each, before WWII.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't understand how you can say that. In the 14 years of the Hart prior to WWII only Shore and once Seibert were defenders.

We don't need to discount Shore's Harts to emphasize Morenz's importance as a center.

From 1926-27 to 1943-44, 50% of Hart Trophies (9 of 18) went to defensemen. 1 went to a goalie (Worters) and 8 went to forwards

Yet no defensemen won a Hart before Shore. And only 2 others won one each, before WWII.

Herb Gardiner, Babe Seibert, Ebbie Goodfellow, Tom Anderson, and Babe Pratt each won a single Hart Trophy as a defenseman between 1927 and 1944.

Saying "before World War 2" was a lazy way to refer to the era of hockey.

 

[VanIslander]

From 1926-27 to 1943-44, 50% of Hart Trophies (9 of 18) went to defensemen. 1 went to a goalie (Worters) and 8 went to forwards

Oh, you are counting WWII years and each of Shore's 4 Harts in your analysis to show that Shore's Harts are biased a bit from more deserving forwards?

In which of Shore's four Hart trophy years was someone else so good that the difference was "probably" due to bias toward defensemen?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh, you are counting WWII years and each of Shore's 4 Harts in your analysis to show that Shore's Harts are biased a bit from more deserving forwards?

In which of Shore's four Hart trophy years was someone else so good that the difference was "probably" due to bias toward defensemen?

My point is that Shore being a defenseman doesn't make his Hart Trophies any more impressive than if he were a forward, like it would if a defenseman today won multiple Harts, since it was common for the best defenseman in the league to win the Hart at the time.

I think that Shore and Morenz have similar Hart records once you take into account the stronger competition (from forwards) when Morenz was at his peak. And yes, the fact that the best defenseman in the league ALWAYS finished high in Hart voting. Shore does have more longevity as an elite player than Morenz, however.

Edit: And to add to this, the fact that the top defensemen pretty much ALWAYS received Hart consideration through 1944 means that every forward who played before WW2 faced tougher competition for the Hart because they had to compete with the best defensemen in the league, while after WW2, the Hart was basically a forward's award with occasional consideration given to goaltenders.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My point is that Shore being a defenseman doesn't make his Hart Trophies any more impressive than if he were a forward, like it would if a defenseman today won multiple Harts, since it was common for the best defenseman in the league to win the Hart at the time.

I think that Shore and Morenz have similar Hart records once you take into account the stronger competition (from forwards) when Morenz was at his peak. And yes, the fact that the best defenseman in the league ALWAYS finished high in Hart voting. Shore does have more longevity as an elite player than Morenz, however.

Edit: And to add to this, the fact that the top defensemen pretty much ALWAYS received Hart consideration through 1944 means that every forward who played before WW2 faced tougher competition for the Hart because they had to compete with the best defensemen in the league, while after WW2, the Hart was basically a forward's award with occasional consideration given to goaltenders.

Any way you cut it, Shore has more Hart Trophies than anyone other than Gretzky & Howe.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The fact that defensemen were considered from the Hart through WW2 but barely got considered afterwards made it more difficult (relatively) for forwards from this time period to receive Hart consideration

This post has every Top 5 Hart finish by a defenseman in NHL history.

From 1924-1946, at least one defenseman finished top 5 for the Hart in every season but two and multiple defensemen were top-5 13 times in the 23 years. From 1947-1966, only Kelly and Harvey ever finished top 5 in Hart voting, and things didn't get any easier for defensemen afterwards.

Here is every top 5 Hart finish by a defenseman during the primes of Beliveau, Mikita, and Messier:

Beliveau: 1955-1966
1954-55 5) Doug Harvey
1955-56 4) Red Kelly 5) Doug Harvey
1956-57 5) Doug Harvey
1957-58 3) Doug Harvey
1961-62 2) Doug Harvey

Mikita: 1962-1970
1961-62 2) Doug Harvey
1966-67 5) Harry Howell
1967-68 4) Bobby Orr
1968-69 3) Bobby Orr
1969-70 1) Bobby Orr 5) Brad Park

Messier: 1987-1997
1986-87 2) Ray Bourque
1989-90 2) Ray Bourque
1990-91 4) Ray Bourque
1994-95 4) Paul Coffey

Now Morenz: 1924-1933
1923-24 2) Sprague Cleghorn 4) Georges Boucher
1925-26 2) Sprague Cleghorn
1926-27 5) King Clancy
1927-28 3) Eddie Shore 5) Ching Johnson
1928-29 3) Eddie Shore 4) Sylvio Mantha 5) King Clancy
1929-30 2) Lionel Hitchman 4) King Clancy
1930-31 2) Eddie Shore 3) King Clancy
1931-32 2) Ching Johnson 4) Red Dutton (we only have the top 4)
1932-33 1) Eddie Shore (we only have the top 4)

If you "remove" all defensemen who finished ahead of Morenz, he would have at least 8 Top 5 Hart finishes, only 1 fewer than Jean Beliveau, and well ahead of any center but Gretzky/Lemieux/Beliveau

These aren't insignificant 7th/8th place finishes, due to serious vote splitting during the era, Morenz received a large number of votes. For example, when Morenz finished 8th in 1927, he had 30 voting points, to 89 for 1st place. When he was 7th in 1930, he had 60 points to 101 for 1st.

year|actual finish|no defensemen
1924|6th|4th
1925|2nd|2nd
1926|6th|5th
1927|8th|5th
1928|1st|1st
1929|NA*|NA
1930|7th|5th
1931|1st|1st
1932|1st|1st
1933|?|?

*We only have the top 7 for 1929, Morenz wasn't top 7
? In 1933, when Morenz was a 2nd Team AS, we only have the top 4, Morenz wasn't top 4. 1 of the top 4 was a defenseman.

Note that even if you remove every defenseman but leave in Shore (since he'd get Hart votes in any era), the table above is unchanged (since Morenz beats Shore twice anyway and Morenz isn't ranked in 1929, the only other season Shore shows up before his 1933 victory.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Mikita: 1962-1970
1961-62 2) Doug Harvey
1966-67 5) Harry Howell
1967-68 4) Bobby Orr
1968-69 3) Bobby Orr
1969-70 1) Bobby Orr 5) Brad Park

[
If you "remove" all defensemen who finished ahead of Morenz, he would have at least 8 Top 5 Hart finishes, only 1 fewer than Jean Beliveau, and well ahead of any center but Gretzky/Lemieux/Beliveau

These aren't insignificant 7th/8th place finishes, due to serious vote splitting during the era, Morenz received a large number of votes. For example, when Morenz finished 8th in 1927, he had 30 voting points, to 89 for 1st place. When he was 7th in 1930, he had 60 points to 101 for 1st.

year|actual finish|no defensemen
1924|6th|4th
1925|2nd|2nd
1926|6th|5th
1927|8th|5th
1928|1st|1st
1929|NA*|NA
1930|7th|5th
1931|1st|1st
1932|1st|1st
1933|?|?

*We only have the top 7 for 1929, Morenz wasn't top 7
? In 1933, when Morenz was a 2nd Team AS, we only have the top 4, Morenz wasn't top 4. 1 of the top 4 was a defenseman.

Note that even if you remove every defenseman but leave in Shore (since he'd get Hart votes in any era), the table above is unchanged (since Morenz beats Shore twice anyway and Morenz isn't ranked in 1929, the only other season Shore shows up before his 1933 victory.

Wanted to do the same thing for Mikita and see if his results changed...

After a quick look at his Hart finishes, none of his years where he received significant Hart votes were affected (using TDMM's definition of "significant" - 10%+ of 1st place's points).

 

[VMBM]

How good was Espo defensively really? I read somewhere that his skating was so poor he had problems with changing on the fly, is that true? If it's true then it doesn't sound like a guy who could be very good defensively. I'm no expert on the 70s so some input there would be nice. I have a weak spot for graceful skaters a la Fedorov and Nighbor, so Espo and his playing type isn't necessarily a favorite of mine, although you can't ignore his strengths.

Well, he made at least one legendary/crucial defensive play in his career (from game 8 of the 1972 Summit series):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPuuwfrX5UE&t=14m13s

But I think that series was an exception anyway, and overall, yes, he was a poor skater, and not a great backchecker etc.

 

[unknown33]

we all know about Mario's individual accolades, if you don't think that Jean and Stan having more games at an excellent or elite level matter then say so.

It's just one metric (the actual number of games each player had an actual excellent or elite impact) that Mario does very poorly in against most of the guys here. We would pro rate everyone to an 82 game season as in past times the regular season had less games.

Does he? Is this claim backed up anywhere? I would be genuinely interested (Number of games >X pts for example)