Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Centers)

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Not so and this goes to perceptions of Trottier and Potvin as well.

A dominant team is expected to dominate from the opening faceoff. Properly prepared their key center is expected to dominate defensively and offensively while the #1 defenseman is expected to take charge. Was this happening with the dynasty Islanders?

1981 Playoffs, the Islanders played 18 games. In 9 of the 18 they were outshot in the first period, yet they outscored the opposition 11-10. Billy Smith was the difference. In the 9 games, after the first period, the Islanders led 2, were behind in two, tied in 5. Final result 6W-3L. So the Islanders in 1981 relied heavily on Billy Smith until they made the necessary adjustments after the first period. That they won 12 of their 14 victories en route to the SC masks the importance of Billy Smith's contribution in the first period.

Suggest checking the other years in a similar fashion.

What??? In the first period they took about half the shots and scored about half the goals? No way!

Yes, it must be clutch goaltending.

Considering how much the isles outscored the opposition in total, it sounds like they were pretty terrible in the first period, actually.
 

Canadiens1958

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Trottier, Clarke, Mikita

Would be interested in hearing the reasons for that. Right now I have Mikita ahead of both at #5, but I am open to hearing arguments in favor of those two and Messier.

Trottier, Clarke, Mikita. In order from the standpoint of overall defense and leadership.

Trottier, success against Gretzky and the Oilers in the playoffs. Leadership qualities from day one. Managed the line with Bossy and Gillies to near perfection.

Clarke, a few centers played well against him in the playoffs, aging Henri Richard, Darryl Sittler. Excellent with rookie Bill Barber and Reggie Leach but slipped a bit afterwards.

Stan Mikita, nice offensive stats, solid defense but struggled against certain centers that are ranked below him - Keon/Kelly, Delvecchio/Ullman. Weakest leadership abilities in this group. Penalties were an issue thru 1965. Finals against Montreal, 1965,1971,1973. 20 games. Home 1G 7A, Away 3G 5A, 7PP points, reasonable but held scoreless in 10 games, including 6 at Montreal and both game 7.
 

overpass

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Not that anyone is saying Mikita was as good defensively as Clarke or Trottier, but it's interesting to compare them. Both Clarke and Trottier were fortunate enough to play for great coaches who built great teams around them - teams that were known for being very good defensively and very tough to play against. And both Clarke and Trottier perfectly matched their coach and team's reputation. In fact both were responsible for it, as much as any one player could be. *

Mikita's best offensive years came on a team with a reputation for playing run and gun offensive hockey, at least relative to their competition*. Is it likely that he bears no responsibility for this reputation? I suppose it's possible. Maybe he was just unfortunate in playing for Billy Reay rather than Shero or Arbour**. Maybe Bobby Hull and/or others set the tone for the team. But even if this is the case it seems very strange that one of the top five centres of all time had nothing to do with his team's identity and reputation. *Especially when compared to team-defining players like Clarke, Trottier, Morenz, Yzerman, Sakic, etc *

*The 60s Hawks would have looked very conservative two decades later. *

**But only if he had nothing to do with getting rid of Pilous and replacing him with Reay.
 

Canadiens1958

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Billy Reay

Not that anyone is saying Mikita was as good defensively as Clarke or Trottier, but it's interesting to compare them. Both Clarke and Trottier were fortunate enough to play for great coaches who built great teams around them - teams that were known for being very good defensively and very tough to play against. And both Clarke and Trottier perfectly matched their coach and team's reputation. In fact both were responsible for it, as much as any one player could be. *

Mikita's best offensive years came on a team with a reputation for playing run and gun offensive hockey, at least relative to their competition*. Is it likely that he bears no responsibility for this reputation? I suppose it's possible. Maybe he was just unfortunate in playing for Billy Reay rather than Shero or Arbour**. Maybe Bobby Hull and/or others set the tone for the team. But even if this is the case it seems very strange that one of the top five centres of all time had nothing to do with his team's identity and reputation. *Especially when compared to team-defining players like Clarke, Trottier, Morenz, Yzerman, Sakic, etc *

*The 60s Hawks would have looked very conservative two decades later. *

**But only if he had nothing to do with getting rid of Pilous and replacing him with Reay.

Billy Reay was a better defensive coach than Rudy Pilous. Played and coached in the Montreal and Toronto systems before Chicago.

1960-67.Last four seasons with Pilous Hawks were 800 GF 724 GA. First four with Billy Reay, 946 GF 702 GA with post prime Pilote and Glenn Hall.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
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Billy Reay was a better defensive coach than Rudy Pilous. Played and coached in the Montreal and Toronto systems before Chicago.

1960-67.Last four seasons with Pilous Hawks were 800 GF 724 GA. First four with Billy Reay, 946 GF 702 GA with post prime Pilote and Glenn Hall.

A difference of 22 GA over 4 years, man that could be so many factors aside from coaching.

The amount isn't significant on the surface. 22/724 is 0.03% of a difference over a 4 year span.
 

Canadiens1958

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Overall

A difference of 22 GA over 4 years, man that could be so many factors aside from coaching.

The amount isn't significant on the surface. 22/724 is 0.03% of a difference over a 4 year span.

Now do the overall including the GF while integrating rookie centers into the team - Phil Esposito and Fred Stanfield while giving more responsibility to a young Denis DeJordy.
 

overpass

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Billy Reay was a better defensive coach than Rudy Pilous. Played and coached in the Montreal and Toronto systems before Chicago.

1960-67.Last four seasons with Pilous Hawks were 800 GF 724 GA. First four with Billy Reay, 946 GF 702 GA with post prime Pilote and Glenn Hall.

I could be overstating the Hawks' defensive issues. Maybe Scotty Bowman had a historical axe to grind in that area.

On that note, Scotty Bowman's ranking of these players (from his top 100 Canadian players)

4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
16. Mark Messier
32. Bobby Clarke
40. Phil Esposito
63. Bryan Trottier
Czechoslovakian: Stan Mikita
 

BraveCanadian

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I could be overstating the Hawks' defensive issues. Maybe Scotty Bowman had a historical axe to grind in that area.

On that note, Scotty Bowman's ranking of these players (from his top 100 Canadian players)

4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
16. Mark Messier
32. Bobby Clarke
40. Phil Esposito
63. Bryan Trottier
Czechoslovakian: Stan Mikita

I would sometimes say in discussions on here: (so and so NHL player/coach) probably knows better about xyz than <insert hfboards poster>.

Heck I probably brought up Bowman in those arguments too.

In this case though.. Scotty's list was just terrible.
 

overpass

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Jean Beliveau, Stan Mikita, and Phil Esposito - From the pages of Sports Illustrated

Jean Beliveau
January 23, 1956 - The Marvels From Montreal
As for Beliveau, this is Blake's first season of close association with the 24-year-old center who is currently leading the whole league in scoring, and he is understandably less inclined to employ full use of superlatives. "I think Jean is great," he says. "He is big and strong and can do everything well, but he doesn't have the desire to score that Maurice has." Tommy Ivan, former Detroit coach and now general manager at Chicago, gives a more thorough appraisal of Beliveau's talents. " Beliveau is great because he takes the direct route. No long way around for him. He has the size (6 feet, 3 inches) and the weight (205 pounds) to hold his own. He's tremendously strong, a beautiful skater, already a superb stick handler, strictly a team man with a perfect sense of playmaking. He has a wonderfully hard and accurate shot. He'd be a star on any hockey club. I wish he were on mine."
The game under way, they remain individually different although working for the same cause. "With Maurice," said Managing Director Selke, "his moves are powered by instinctive reflexes. Maurice can't learn from lectures. He does everything by instinct and with sheer power. Beliveau, on the other hand, is probably the classiest hockey player I've ever seen. He has a flair for giving you his hockey as a master showman. He is a perfect coach's hockey player because he studies and learns. He's moving and planning all the time, thinking out the play required for each situation. The difference between the two best hockey players in the game today is simply this: Beliveau is a perfectionist,Richard is an opportunist."

As these classifications clearly suggest, the mannerisms of the two men on the ice are quite different. Richard's fiery and explosive temper has gotten him more than once into a hotbed of trouble. Beliveau, for a time, was just the opposite, and, in fact, during his first year with Les Canadiens he acquired the nickname Gentleman Jean when it was discovered around the league that the new rookie had a distinct aversion to mixing it up. His former coach,Dick Irvin, noticing the change that has come over Beliveau during the last year, says of him now, "Like the other great players in the game, Jean was quick to smarten up when he saw the opposition getting the best of him. He'll never be the type to go around looking for trouble, but now he can be as tough as anybody."

March 30, 1964 - The Champions Who Had No Chance
In that trying time, about the only thing that kept the Canadiens from dropping into the league cellar was the unexpected brilliance of Team Captain Beliveau, one of the finest centers ever to play hockey. In his great years Beliveau, who has the poise and grace and something of the attitude of a matador, could work his fans into a state of emotional frenzy (an ecstatic woman once paid him tribute by flinging her corset onto the ice during a game). Last season Beliveau, who had begun to show his 32 years, had one of his worst seasons, and at the end of it he seemed finished as a major force in big league hockey. "I think I retire," he said; and the fickle letter-writing ladies of Quebec added a hearty "and about time, too."

But Jean Beliveau, says Montreal Managing Director Frank Selke, "is a proud man. He didn't want to quit on a bad season, so we persuaded him to come back."

Traditionally, Beliveau is a slow starter but, realizing that the weakened Canadiens would need him at his best early, he worked himself into fine fighting trim at training camp and started the season with a rush of goals and assists. His fast early-season pace kept the Canadiens alive.

May 10, 1965
A Hard Toe Right To The Jaw

For Beliveau the season of 1964-65 has been uneven. He had only five goals and 10 assists in the first half of the campaign. Inside he was being ripped with self-doubt, especially when he was scoreless for 12 games. It was 1963 all over again; during that year Beliveau almost retired because of his nerves. This year he was in a difficult position. He was not going well, and he was captain of the team. "I was supposed to show the way," he says, "but it's tough when you're not doing much yourself." When Beliveau finally started to come around, he suffered a knee injury. Even so, he finished strong and entered the playoffs at the top of his game. Slick and cool around center ice and a masterful stickhandler, Beliveau scored 16 points in the playoffs, second in total to Bobby Hull.

May 20, 1968 - Tears For Toe, A Bottle Of Bubbly For Gump
But it was Worsley who was the hero, for he had picked up the Canadiens at their low point, when big Jean Beliveau, the NHL's premier center, suffered a bone chip in his ankle and was sidelined for almost all of the final series… Then the predominantly French-speaking fans in the overheated crowd of 15,505 took up another chant.

"On veut Beliveau.... On veut Beliveau," they shouted over and over. "We want Beliveau."

Within moments Big John, the toast of La Belle Province, struggled to center ice on his crutches. Not even Worsley was more roundly cheered.

May 05, 1969 - Grand Jean A Mighty Man Is He
And the best thing about Beliveau is that he is in fact a paragon. Gentlemanly on the ice and off it, a miracle of modesty, a dutiful husband and a man whose loyalty to his team and its owners is unshakable, he has all the old-fashioned virtues.
As Beliveau demonstrated pretty clearly in the Boston series, he is the best hockey center who ever lived. Others have outscored him, others have looked flashier on the ice, but none has had his ability to be in the right place at the right time so consistently or to pass the puck with his remarkable accuracy.

March 23, 1970 - Up Jump Those Pore Li'l Canucks

Confronted with this crisis, Montreal rallied brilliantly last week behind its two most valuable men—Beliveau and hardrock John Ferguson—and moved within a point of the fourth-place Detroit Red Wings. "It used to be that we always were playing for first place," Beliveau said,' 'but this year it will be tougher to get into the playoffs than it will be to win the Stanley Cup."

The Canadiens would not be in such distress if Beliveau had been able to play like the old Beliveau all season and Ferguson had not missed almost half the schedule because of injuries and a six game suspension. Jean and John represent the absolute extremes of hockey players. Beliveau, now 38 years old, is tall and strong, an effortless skater, a precise shooter, an adroit playmaker, a persistent checker. He is the complete hockey player—and the silent leader of the Canadiens. Ferguson skates with great effort but he gets there, and when he does he usually stops himself by running into one of the enemy. He is the Canadiens' cop, the bodyguard for the smaller players on the Montreal team. He is the Canadiens' noisy leader.

For Beliveau it has been an equally frustrating season. There he is, the greatest winner in hockey history, with 10 regular-season championships and those nine Stanley Cups. Now he wants to do what basketball's Bill Russell did last year: lead his team into the playoffs and win the last championship. Like Russell, Beliveau will not say it will be his last championship, but those who know him expect that No. 4 will be retired at the end of the season.

Typically, Beliveau blamed himself for most of the Canadiens' recent problems.
"If I had played my game all the time," he said, "maybe the others would have played better. When I pass the puck, I pass it a split second too late. When I shoot it, I shoot it a split second too late. That is what happens when you are 38 years old."
Jean started the season strongly but then cracked a bone in his ankle early in December. He missed a month of the schedule and when he did return he could skate only 45 seconds of a two-minute shift. "I had no wind, no resistance," he said. "Each night I hoped I would jump on the ice and feel that I could skate the whole game. But it never happened."

May 31, 1971 - An Old Custom At Customs
The Canadiens' return to Montreal, while triumphant, was not as boisterous as might have been expected, mostly because the players were aware that Beliveau had pretty much decided to retire. "He shouldn't leave now," argued Tremblay. "Sure, he's almost 40, but did he play like a 40-year-old man in the cup? No. We ought to tell him he's only 30 so he'll stay around and play with us for 10 more years." Houle said: "We had six or seven rookies in the lineup for these playoffs. Before every game we'd get tight, but we would look over at Beliveau and then we would relax. Having him on your side really meant that everything would be all right somehow."

Beliveau and Richard now have played on 10 victorious Stanley Cup teams, more than any other players. "This one was the greatest," Beliveau said. "We weren't supposed to win. Oh, we could have quit. We could have quit that night Boston led us 5-1, but we didn't and we won. We could have quit when Chicago had us two down and led 2-0 after the first period in the third game. But we didn't. We never do."

So Beliveau is a winner again, and the Stanley Cup, after staying in Boston for a year, is back in Montreal. "TheStanley Cup," said Jean Beliveau, "always should be in Montreal."

Stan Mikita
April 30, 1962 - 'a Couple Of Hi-hos And Here We Go'

His legs are a little bowed. His toes are cramped from wearing tight skates. By the standards of modern sport, he is—at 5 feet 9 and 170 pounds—approximately two-thirds of an athlete. But Stan Mikita of the Chicago Black Hawkswas indubitably the superstar of this year's Stanley Cup playoffs, even though his team lost to Toronto, four games to two. As tough as a parboiled puck, Mikita set a new playoff point-scoring record of 21 (on six goals and 15 assists). More subtly and more significantly, Mikita was the playmaker or the scorer on the first goal play in seven of the Hawks' 12 playoff games—and in the 1962 playoffs, the team that scored first won 83% of the time. Says New York Goalie Gump Worsley: "Mikita, he'll always make the big plays that'll kill you."

Not as burly as Montreal's big Center Jean Beliveau, not as fast as Montreal's little Center Henri Richard, Mikita brilliantly compensates with terror, wit and perception. "A lot of guys can skate well," says Glenn Hall, the goalkeeper of the Black Hawks, "but they can't think well while they're doing it." Mikita not only thinks well but well ahead. "He anticipates more than most other centers," says Coach Rudy Pilous of the Hawks. "He plans every move three jumps ahead, like a good pool player."

Against Toronto, Mikita was the able centerpiece in a shift in Black Hawk strategy that came off as smoothly as velvet drawn over steel. In the Stanley Cup semifinal, the Montreal Canadien defensemen tended to play back close to the nets, opening up the ice in front of them for playmaking by the Hawks. So Mikita maneuvered with drop-pass plays near the blue line, sacrificing strict control of the puck in an effort to feint defensemen out of position by quick shifts that would open up a shot on goal. But in the Stanley Cup finals, Toronto's defensemen played out closer to the blue line, opening up the area behind them for maneuver and playmaking—if the Hawks could reach it. So Mikita abandoned the cute drop-pass technique in favor of more eruptive hockey: he would control the puck as long as he could, hoping that one of his wings could crash through the outer shell of theToronto defense.

Mikita executed this strategy around his own basic philosophy of a center-man's function. "I'm a great believer in this: the center should handle the puck going over the blue line. I'm the type that likes to carry it across the blue line and mess around with it until some other guy gets into position for a shot." His gift is that he can control the puck under the most inclement conditions, i.e., one dense with the butt ends of hostile sticks. "He won't pass the puck if a man isn't clear," says Worsley. "He won't give the puck away to a guy that's half-covered just to get rid of it." And because he can shift effortlessly in either direction—not favoring, as do most centers, one side or the other—he can fake as naturally as blinking to split the defense wide open. "Stan will give you a couple of hi-hos-and-here-we-go and suddenly he's in on you with the puck," says Glenn Hall, who has to deal with him in Hawk practices. Mikita's best shot is the wrist shot. This season it helped him score 25 goals, which, with his 52 assists, give him a total of 77 points, for a third-place tic in the NHL, with Gordie Howe of Detroit.

In the last two seasons, the Hawks have been using Mikita and his Scooter Line in quaint counterpoint to the muscle-busting vigor of the Bobby Hull-Bill Hay-Murray Balfour line. At 165 pounds, the Scooter Line is, on the average, 30 pounds lighter than the muscle-busters. So when rival teams try to check the Hull-Hay-Balfour line with their burliest policemen, Pilous tends to counter with the faster-skating Scooter Line.

December 02, 1963 - The Rich Bounty Of Mutiny
"Rudy Pilous couldn't coach a girls' basketball team," remarked Wingman Eric Nesterenko during Rudy's first years. Nesterenko's opinion has changed only to the extent of admitting now that Pilous "probably could coach a girls' basketball team." Last year, in a newspaper poll in which NHL players were asked to name the three best coaches in the league, not one Chicago player named Pilous. And in a postseason TV interview, Center Bill (Red) Hay, explaining the Hawks' failure to win the championship, said "we were outcoached."

"It was a workmanlike stiletto job," said Pilous when Chicago General Manager Tommy Ivan notified him by mail that he was fired. But—except for the method used—Ivan had little choice. With Pilous cast in the role of Captain Bligh, and Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita alternating as Mr. Christian, someone had to be cast adrift, and the Chicagomanagement was not inclined to make it two of the league's sharpest shooters. Manager Ivan fired Pilous, hired Reay—who had himself been fired by the Toronto Maple Leafs after pulling them out of the cellar and into the playoffs in 1959—and, in effect, said to Hay, Mikita, Hull and Co., "Now put up or shut up."

No team in the NHL has more individual stars or more temperamental individualists than Chicago. Bobby Hull, year by year, is skating his way into history as one of the game's alltime superstars. Outspoken Stan Mikita, who likes to describe himself as a dirty player, is one of the game's top hustlers. Glenn Hall won the Vezina Trophy as the league's best goalie last year, and Captain Pierre Pilote won a similar award as the top defenseman. Five of the stars chosen by a panel of hockey writers and sportscasters to play in the season-opening all-star game were Black Hawks.

One of the complaints that both Hull and Mikita had last year was that Pilous did not give them enough ice time, a deprivation that cut down their opportunity to score. One of Reay's first changes was to put these high shooters on a schedule that has them skating for 40 minutes of every game. Both of them are now serving not only in their regular lines but as penalty killers and key men.

January 31, 1966 - The Black Hawks' No. 2 Tries Harder
Stan Mikita is no Bobby Hull, but as the second best player on the Hawks team he is determined to get Chicago its first NHL championship
Mikita assisted Hull on the important first goal of the game to get the Hawks off to a good start. After that, he took charge of the puck in 34 of the 35 face-offs he was involved in to give the Hawks possession time and time again, particularly in the defensive zone. It was a pattern that has been repeated many times over in other Hawks' games.
For years, Coach Punch Imlach's Toronto Maple Leafs have been known for coasting along through the regular season, letting the championship go so they can save their strength for the playoffs. The Black Hawks of 1965-66 have quite another attitude; they want that championship. "For those who don't understand hockey it may seem ridiculous to wear yourself out playing 70 games to win the league title and get only $2,250 when you might win the cup in eight games and get $3,500," explains Mikita. "But winning the title this year is now a matter of pride with us and hockey players exist on pride." This year the 5-foot-9 center, known to French-speaking fans as Le Petit Diable, is determined not only to win for the Hawks but to become the second man ever to lead the NHL in overall scoring for three straight years.
Like Gordie, Mikita is an all-round hockey player, but he is not as spectacular as Bobby Hull, nor is he equipped with Hull's brute strength. Hull's marvelous combination of speed, build, strength and looks forces Stan to play Gehrig to Bobby's Ruth, but Gehrig was a pretty fair ballplayer. Hull has out-scored Mikita in goals over the last four seasons by 40, yet Mikita has outscored Hull in total points by 25.

When Mikita takes over at center ice, he digs into the corners to free the puck and then skates effortlessly over the enemy's blue line with the puck out in front, drawing the defense toward him. Once the defense is committed to Stan's center position, a wingman on the right or left is wide open and Stan's lightning pass often sets up a shot on the net. Sometimes Mikita's turn lasts only a minute, but last year he assisted on 59 goals, a league record, and scored 28. Two seasons back he bagged 39 goals himself.

But it is Mikita's ability to win face-offs that sets him apart from most of the players in the league. Whenever the Hawks are in trouble and the face-off is in the defensive zone, Mikita will slide over the sideboards and go out to win the face-off, thus getting the Hawks out of danger.

Players as good and as small as Mikita are obvious targets for the bigger men in the league, and Mikita has a reputation as a "chippy" player—one who infuriates the opponent. Allan Stanley of Toronto sums him up this way: "Mikita may look like a small man, but there are no small men in the National Hockey League, at least no small men who aren't men. If you give Stan a little jab, he reacts immediately. Most players will wait for a chance to retaliate, but Mikita will give it right back to you in the same motion. And he can be ornery himself." Mikita has led NHL centers in penalties for six straight years.
March 20, 1967 - No Foldo In Chicago
The Scooters like to describe their success in terms of group effort—and that is certainly the main factor. But it also happens that these are three brilliant individual players. Mikita can do everything very well, and some things—stickhandling and playmaking—better than anyone else. He is also a fierce competitor and a leader. Now in his eighth full season with Chicago, he says, "I'm a better hockey player than I've ever been."

Wharram is not as smooth a stick-handler, but he is very fast and has a hard, accurate shot. Mohns, the most recent addition to the line, is the heaviest of the three—175 pounds compared to 163 for Wharram and 161 for Mikita—and adds checking power. Because he was a defenseman during most of the 11 years he played with Boston, people tend to think of him as a weak scorer. Weak scorer Mohns has already put in 23 goals and ranks among the league's top 10.

When he was traded to Chicago in 1964, Mohns was supposed to play defense. But he suffered several injuries, and when he was ready to play Reay was undecided where to use him. Mikita and Wharram suggested that Mohns join them. He began playing left wing, but he was still thinking defensively. "Sometimes we would rush up and make a pass to Mohnsie's side," says Wharram, "and he would be moving back. I'd ask why, and he'd say that we had left an opposing forward free and he wanted to back us up. He would be right, of course—but that's cautious hockey, the kind you see in Stanley Cup playoffs. It's not really our regular style."

Soon Mohns adjusted. "Playing with strange linemates," he says, "you tend to hesitate. You don't want to get caught out of position, and sometimes you have to forfeit scoring chances. But the more I get to know Stan and Whip, the more I sense their moves and go with them. Now my contribution to the line is less defensive, and I'm scoring more goals."

Mikita, although he is an exceptional forechecker, too, says, "We're not a checking line, we're a forcing line. We make the plays and let the other guys worry about checking us."
November 13, 1967 - Bad Start For Black Hawks

The right time should arrive when the Hawks' best offensive weapon, the Scooter Line, finally begins producing. The early season has been a nightmare for hockey's Most Valuable Player, Center Stan Mikita. Last year, when he tied the NHL point-scoring record (97), Stan got five goals and 11 assists in the first nine games. After nine games this year he had exactly one assist. And last week this man, who collected $11,000 in award money in the spring, found $500 deducted from his paycheck—a fine for indifferent play. Left Wing Mohns has been badly hurt and has played little, and Wharram alone is very good but not a one-man line.

Bobby Hull is a one-man line when he has to be. He has done everything possible to carry his club. He contributes his goal per game, and with any help at all he could get the Hawks going. Even if his efforts remain futile he seems certain to break his own record of 54 goals. The longer schedule and weaker opponents in the new division make 60 goals seem likely and 70 quite possible.

But behind Hull everything has gone sour, and Reay has been forced to juggle his lines constantly to combat injuries and ineffectiveness. Unfortunately, the Hawks are peculiarly set in their styles; they are not the kind of players who will work equally well in any combination. When Eric Nesterenko was needed on Bobby's line, for example, younger brother Dennis Hull had trouble on the third line without veteran Eric's passes. Mikita, who likes to work clever passes to both sides, cannot center for Bobby, who needs many passes to his side. Other forwards have similar difficulties switching lines—but Reay has no choice. He has to try something.

March 16, 1970 - Hunker Down And Fly Right
All through training camp the rumors had been circulating: Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita, two of the biggest stars in hockey, were not going to be treated as stars anymore, they were going to be treated just like the rest of theChicago Black Hawks. Sure. There were other rumors. The freewheeling Hawks were going to start playing defense. They were going to bring up some kids. This last was the most absurd rumor of them all—for these were youngsters who had played college hockey in the U.S. You just don't step out of college and into the National Hockey League.

Well, it happened. The Black Hawks broke in three U.S. college graduates, who stuck, and tightened up on defense and subordinated Hull and Mikita, who not only scored goals but also prevented some. As a result, this week the Black Hawks were in third place in the NHL's East Division and were making eyes at the front-running Boston Bruins and New York Rangers.

Through it all, no Hawk has been more admirable than Stan Mikita, although the 29-year-old playmaker has been troubled by a bad back. He wears a brace, but no treatment has given him real relief. Last year the four-time NHLscoring champion "slumped" to 30 goals and 67 assists. Because of his back and the fact the club was breaking in youngsters all around him Mikita could not get going early this year, but he started to warm up in December. In January he caught fire. A number of five-and six-point games have now moved him into third place in the scoring race.

January 15, 1973 - Big Little Guy In Chi
"Our trouble," explained Chicago's Stan Mikita, "has been that we no longer have the guy who always got the big goal for us when we needed it." Not having Hull has presented serious defensive problems for the Hawks, too. "Never, never have I had to stop—or try to stop—so many good scoring chances," said Goalie Tony Esposito. "When Bobby was on the ice for 30 minutes a game the other teams had to worry about him all that time. They couldn't get very ambitious themselves because Bobby would burn them at the other end. Without Bobby to worry about, they're not afraid to take liberties." Esposito shook his head. "We lost only 17 games all last year," he said, "but we've lost 14 games already—and we're not even halfway through the schedule."

Not surprisingly the Black Hawks were pretty uptight all week, particularly Mikita, although on the ice he resembled the spry young center who won four scoring championships in five seasons during the mid-'60s. "It's my skating," Mikita said. "For the first time in five or six years I've been able to skate effortlessly. My back hasn't caused me one bit of trouble, thank goodness. As a result I don't have to pump myself—you know, force myself—to get places. I'm not even conscious of the fact that I'm skating. I just do it naturally."
With Hull in Winnipeg, Mikita has tried valiantly to become Chicago's leader. "I put the onus on myself," he said. "I've been here 12 years, longer than anyone else, and I feel I should try to do some of the things Bobby always did. But I don't know if today's kids buy that stuff anymore, particularly in professional sports."

May 21, 1973 - Victory—and Reckoning
...Peter Mahovlich had lost a few dozen face-offs to Stan Mikita…
"We ran around like chickens with our heads cut off," Richard mumbled. "Did you ever see so many mistakes in one game? Ever? We played stupid." About the only player who did not contribute to the shoddiness was Center Stan Mikita, who scored two goals himself and directly set up two others for the Black Hawks although he was playing with a painful bruise on the middle finger of his right hand.

"If Mikita played baseball," said Peter Mahovlich of the Canadiens, "he'd be on the disabled list for a month." Mikita's two goals came on artful deflections in front of Dryden, his two assists while he was giving Mahovlich personalized instruction in the art of winning important face-offs. Both times Mikita was sent out by Coach Billy Reay expressly to take a face-off from Mahovlich, younger brother of Frank, the Canadien whose scoring record Cournoyer was to break.

Mikita, who is six years wiser, eight inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter than the gangling Mahovlich, won the first face-off cleanly, slid the puck back to Defenseman Len Frig and—zap—the rookie fired it past Dryden into the net. A few minutes later Mikita beat Mahovlich again, skated up-ice and set up Jim Pappin for another Chicago goal. When Mahovlich and Mikita squared off the next time, the Montreal player shook his head and began talking to Mikita.

"Stan," he said, "If you don't let me win one of these things pretty soon, Scotty [Montreal Coach Bowman] won't put me on the ice again. Be a nice guy, will you, and give me a break. Cripes, I'm cheating every way I can but I still can't even touch the puck."

Phil Esposito

February 03, 1969 - It's Bobby Orr & The Animals

One great adapter is Phil Esposito, who has developed into a center to rival the Canadiens' Jean Beliveau. "He's got a big reach and he's so strong," says Imlach. "My guys stand around and watch him move the puck like they're mesmerized." Esposito centered for Bobby Hull in Chicago two years ago, and every time Phil scored a goal he was called a "garbage player." "Let them say what they want," he shrugs. "I don't care if the puck goes in off my head. Here in Boston, though, I'm carrying the puck more. In Chicago we gave it off to the wings. And my wings here are getting me the puck from the corner. A center can't ask for anything more."

April 28, 1969 - Boston Roars Back
Sinden's longing for goals suddenly was realized. Not only goals but goals from his No. 1 gunner, Phil Esposito, the tall, gorilla-armed center who had run up a record total of 126 points during the season—and had been shut out inMontreal by the tight-checking Backstrom line. Late in the first period Bobby Orr, the all-everything defenseman who is finally old enough to vote, took a big swing from the left point and sizzled a shot at Worsley, the same acrobatic fireplug who had quit in November with a case of nerves and come back to play a very superior goal. The puck hit the skate of Esposito's left wing, Ron Murphy, and caromed off the boards to the Gumper's left. It flew directly onto the stick of Esposito, whose low shot from 15 feet away started the Bruins toward their shutout.

Esposito proceeded to score another goal and assist on the team's other three, thanks partly to the fact that he did not have Backstrom draped over him like a school of eels. In Montreal, Claude Ruel, exercising the home team's prerogative of sending out his lines after the other coach had committed himself, had the last say; in Boston, Harry Sinden had it his way. He matched Esposito's line with Beliveau's, and at last Phil had some freedom.

Conceding afterward that Backstrom had done "a helluva job" on him, Esposito insisted that being whitewashed, in the Forum had not particularly bothered him. "I was getting my chances," he said. "When you're not getting the chances that's when you start to worry. It was funny, though. Ralph was out there to check me, and I said to myself, 'If I don't score, then he doesn't score.' Then he gets the winner in overtime. What can you say?"

November 09, 1970 - Panic Was Quelled In Boston
Phil Esposito and Fred Stanfield against the Rangers' Tkaczuk and Jean Ratelle is not a very bad pairing, either.Esposito, Johnson claims, "has to be one of the greatest centers in the history of the game." If Esposito hadSanderson's mouth, he probably would be a household word or, at least, a name that gets dropped occasionally.
"Talking isn't my bag," Esposito says. "Let's face it. On our club Orr has the magnetism, Sanderson has the bad-boy image and McKenzie the rough-tough style. I'm just Esposito, never been a crowd pleaser. Hey, I've watched myself on videotape, and I wouldn't cheer for me either. But that's me."

March 29, 1971 - Oh, Brother! A Pair To Watch

Defenseman Bobby Orr, hockey's all-everything, tends to break into raves when he discusses his high-scoring teammate. "The minute Phil was traded to us from Chicago four years ago he changed this whole team," Orr says. "We were a last-place club. Now we're the champions. Give the credit to Esposito. He went around training camp bringing us together. He'd say, 'Come on, guys, I know we can make the playoffs, but we got to stick together.' We did, and we still do. We're like a team of brothers. I know Phil has scored a lot of points, but to my mind he's even more important off the ice. He's the main force that holds us together."

At his center-ice position Phil Esposito is a study in Houdini-like deception. He never seems hurried, and some have erroneously charged him with laziness. A stopwatch shows the fallacy. Where shorter, busier skaters will go down the ice in short strokes—zzzt, zzzt, zzzt—Esposito will cover the same distance in a single, long-striding zzzzzzt. Nonbelievers should have seen a recent game at Toronto where Darryl Sittler, the Maple Leafs' speedy young forward, shot into the clear at Toronto's blue line and was caught by Esposito in 20 yards.

On offense Phil tends to position himself 10 or 15 feet in front of the goal mouth and fire away with the slingshot ease of a metal center in a pinball hockey game. He has neither the awesome slap shot of a Hull nor the fast feet of an Orr, but he has one of the quickest sticks in hockey. "He gets the puck and fires it into the goal while you're still trying to figure out how he got the puck in the first place," says teammate Ed Johnston. "He's so strong that he can fend off the other guy with one arm and skate right around him. The only way I know to stop him is to put somebody on him and shadow him constantly, but then you're opening things up for his two linemates, Wayne Cashman and Ken Hodge. And they can score on anybody."
Indeed, Cashman-Esposito-Hodge have already become the highest-scoring line in history, breaking a record set by Esposito, Hodge and Ron Murphy. It is a beefy line, more than 600 pounds and 18 feet in total height—behemoth by hockey standards. "We try to go at 'em in waves," Esposito says. "Hodgey and Cash go into those corners like tigers to dig that puck out of there, and I help out. If the other team wants to pay too much attention to me, the others will score. And it doesn't hurt when Bobby Orr's out there firing those cannon shots of his from the point."

April 26, 1971
Brief Reign Of The Lordly Bruins

The second and third vital matchups involved centermen: Boston's swinging Derek Sanderson vs. Jean Beliveau, the magnificent captain of the Canadiens, and Montreal's Henri Richard vs. the quick stick of Phil Esposito. Sitting in the Bruins' dressing room one night, Sanderson talked about Beliveau. "I hate him. I hate him," Derek said, twitching his mustache. "What I hate about Beliveau is that he's so good. All the time I was growing up I idolized him. So now I'm playing against him and I still think he's the greatest. But the way I figure it, if we're going to win, I got to outplay Beliveau."

The great man of the Canadiens gave Derek a few hard lessons during the first three games, but Sanderson covered Beliveau so closely in the fourth game that Jean was never an important player. "That's what I've got to do again," Derek said.
Playing Richard against Esposito was a totally unexpected move by Montreal Coach Al MacNeill. Actually, in the first game MacNeill started with Peter Mahovlich, who at 6'4" and 210 pounds is bigger than Esposito, but when Phil took 11 shots at Dryden (none got past him) MacNeill switched to the Pocket Rocket. Starting with the second game, Richard skated alongside Esposito everyplace he went—even to the Boston bench. Phil, who averaged some seven shots on goal during the season, took only three shots at Dryden in the second game, six in the third and four in the fourth. "Henri is doing his job, right?" Esposito said bitterly.

May 15, 1972 - Tough Mountain To Climb

As Sunday's pivotal game approached, Phil Esposito had a flash of inspiration. "We have been taking the shots," he said, "but not enough of them have been getting through to the goaltender. Walt Tkaczuk and Billy Fairbairn have been moving me into the slot, about 15 feet in front of their goalie, and the three of us probably have blocked more shots than the goalie. What I'll have to do is move out more—another 15 feet, maybe—or move to the side so that Bobby's shots can get through."
The strategy worked, and once again Boston won the battle of the power plays. Esposito kept the middle clear the first time Boston had a manpower advantage, and in less than a minute Orr blasted home a 35-foot shot for his second goal of the game. Later Orr orchestrated Marcotte's goal while the Bruins were short-handed again.
Although Esposito, who had 66 goals during the season, still had not scored in the cup final, he did seal off victories for the Bruins with his great ability to control face-offs. In the first game Esposito won four face-offs to the left or right of Cheevers in the last 75 seconds. In the second game he won a total of 27, including seven straight against Tkaczuk and Jean Ratelle in the last two minutes. The winning goal for the Bruins, in fact, came from a face-off that Esposito controlled against Pete Stemkowski. "The Bruins killed us on the face-offs in that third period," said Denis Ball, one of Francis' assistants. Indeed, Boston had only a 26-25 advantage after two periods, but in the last the Bruins got 22 and lost only seven. "That's where they won," Ball said. And in Sunday's game, the Bruins took the face-off battle once again.

November 19, 1973 - Double Jeopardy For The Bruins
Poor Esposito. While most of Orr's hockey accomplishments already are legend, Esposito still cannot shake the image of "garbage collector" that was thrust on him during his days with the Chicago Black Hawks. Throughout his 10 years in the NHL Esposito has spent perhaps 75% of his ice time playing alongside either Orr or Bobby Hull, and he admittedly has suffered by comparison. Orr and Hull are the game's blond bombers, matinee idols and pinup poster boys, and their scrubbed faces appear in countless commercial messages. In contrast, Esposito is a slow, plodding skater with features the opposite of fair. Except for Lou Angotti of the St. Louis Blues, he has the worst case of five o'clock shadow in hockey. "When I scored 76 goals three years ago," Esposito says, "I was not offered one new major endorsement." Still, he recognizes his identity problem and seems to be reconciled to the fact that large advertisers shun him.

"You can't compare Orr and me or Hull and me," he says. "They bring people to their feet. They are spectacular players. Orr is the best player in the game; I know it and I admit it. I also know that my role is to score goals, to pick up loose pucks and put them behind the goaltender any way I can. So that's what I try to do—and the people still call me a garbage collector. That's life, I'm afraid."

Despite what others say about him, Esposito is the complete center, as he proved conclusively in Team Canada's games with the Soviet Union last year. He is tall and strong, as was that prince of centers, Jean Beliveau, and a man to cause terror whenever he skates within 20 feet of the net. He has hockey's best wrist shot, although he prefers to call it a snap shot, and he invariably shoots without looking at the net. "I have developed a feel for where it is, just as John Havlicek has a knack for knowing where the basket is," Esposito says. "Besides, taking even the quickest look wastes precious time." He estimates that maybe 80% of his goals each season come on either snap shots fairly close in to the goal or artful deflections. Once stationed in front of the net, the 210-pound Esposito is a difficult man to dislodge. He uses his long arms and a powerful body to fend off defensemen while waiting for one of his wings, Wayne Cashman or Ken Hodge, to get the puck from the corners or for Orr to blast away from the blue line. Sometimes, though, he pays a physical price for staking out his position; two weeks ago he lost sight of an Orr shot and the puck broke his nose. He was lucky to be playing at all, having suffered a severe knee injury in the playoffs last April.

April 22, 1974 - Heavy Weather In The Slot

Hockey players call it "the slot," but it is more like Central Park after dark. When Phil Esposito of the Boston Bruins stands in that 5-by-10-foot zone in front of a goaltender for more than one second, he fully expects to stop the butt end of an opponent's stick with his stomach, catch a few fists in his face, get stick-whipped around the ankles or be held, bumped, elbowed and shouldered. More muggings are committed in the slot than in any other high-crime area in North America.

Since the slot also provides the prime goal-scoring position in hockey, these attentions are an occupational hazard, and medical repair bills are a routine income-tax deduction. Esposito scored 68 goals this season and probably 50 of them came on shots from the slot. In return, he endured about 13 elbows and five punches per goal and suffered one broken nose, one bruised wrist and countless facial cuts. Esposito does not just stand there. He parks his 6'2", 215-pound truck of a frame and sets up housekeeping. "Phil rents the slot from theBoston Garden," says Bobby Orr.
"He stays in there so long we should be able to move him out some way," says Defenseman Brian Glennie of theToronto Maple Leafs. "But sometimes he doesn't even budge when he gets hit." No fool, Esposito realizes that if he waits long enough, one of three situations is sure to develop: he will get the puck from one of his wingers—Wayne Cashman or Ken Hodge—working in the corners; he will deflect one of Orr's shots from the blue line; he will collect the rebound from an Orr blast. This routine has produced startling results for the Bruins. Esposito has led the National Hockey League's goal scorers in each of the last five years, and Esposito, Orr, Hodge and Cashman were, in order, the league's top four scorers this season.

Esposito always has practiced a subtle form of retaliation. If he feels he has been fouled but thinks the referee has either missed it or deemed the action legal, he plays the supplicant. He scowls. He frowns. He shudders. He shakes his head. He raises his shoulders. He winces. He drags his leg. Anything to create sympathy. "He's a super actor," says one referee. Esposito also chats with the officials. Some are friendly chats, others are hard-eyed, unfriendly chats. "It's all done for a purpose, everyone knows that," says Esposito himself. "There's no way the referee will change the call he just made—or didn't make—but I'll get him thinking and then next time, well, maybe we'll get the break."

Kelly laughs at the thought of Esposito begging for a penalty. "He's like the guy who robs a store, runs out the front door, yells Thief, thief,' and points to two guys down the street," Kelly says. "He gets away with murder. The simple fact is that he doesn't like to get hit."

May 27, 1974 - Jubilation And A Cup In Philly
Before the start of the series, in a desperate attempt to develop some special strategy to stop Orr and his goal-scoring sidekick, Esposito, Philadelphia Coach Fred Shero had spent long hours analyzing films of his team's repeated losses to the Bruins as well as clips of the Russian national team's checking tactics against TeamCanada. "We're a hitting team," Shero concluded, "but we've always made the mistake of treating Orr andEsposito as untouchables. As a result they have killed us, particularly Orr. The referees think that Orr is God, too. He's not God. And we've got to stop treating him like God." As a reminder, Philadelphia General Manager Keith Allen taped this sign onto his own suitcase: ORR'S NOT GOD. HIT HIM!

Clarke helped the Stop Orr! campaign in two distinct ways. He chased Orr behind the net at times and pinned him to the boards, thus forcing face-offs near the Boston goaltender, and he kept his stick attached to Orr's navel whenever Bobby managed to elude the Flyer forecheckers and gain a half step on them in the race up the ice. More important, Clarke completely nullified Esposito by hawking him relentlessly, hitting him into the boards and embarrassing him almost to the point of ridicule by winning 48 of their 66 face-offs in the first three games. All season long Esposito had logged more than 30 minutes a game for the Bruins. In this series he clearly was exhausted, and hardly an adequate match for the exuberant Clarke.
Clarke's overwhelming superiority in the face-off circle repeatedly thwarted the Bruins after they had exerted strong pressure on Parent. "We'd get two or three good shots at him," Guidolin muttered, "and then Clarke would win the next face-off and get the puck out of trouble." Even when Clarke lost a face-off he managed to tie upEsposito and prevent him from getting off a good shot.

Understandably, Guidolin was in an irate mood before the start of the fourth game, played at the Spectrum. He had scheduled an optional practice for the previous day, but only the Boston irregulars felt they needed the exercise. "The Philadelphia guys practiced," Guidolin said, "but my team was at the racetrack." Then, indirectly criticizing Esposito, he said, "I wish we had a Godfather."
October 28, 1974 - Early Follies On The Ice
He studied the statistics of the game. Esposito had taken nine shots at Bernie Parent, scoring on two of them. "Nine shots!" Clarke said, shaking his head and sniffing. "Nine shots!" What Clarke did not say was that he had played head-to-head against Esposito most of the game and, while Clarke owned the face-off circle, Esposito owned the slot.

November 20, 1978 - A Revival Is A Smash Off Broadway

As Hedberg, Nilsson and the Rangers' other young stars move into the limelight, it is almost possible to overlook Phil Esposito, whose five goals this season have increased his NHL career hoard to 639, second only to Gordie Howe's 786. Acquired three years ago in a controversial trade with Boston, Esposito was promptly appointed New York's captain, earning him the resentment of teammates who thought Gilbert deserved the honor. Largely for that reason, Esposito was never comfortable in the role, and when Shero arrived, the 36-year-old Esposito resigned the captaincy and was succeeded by Maloney. Esposito claims to be unburdened, and he acts it. During practice last week, the gregarious center spied TV sportscaster Marv Albert and yelled, "Hey, why don't you recommend me as a summer replacement at the station?" At the time he put forward this job application, Esposito was in the middle of a rink-length rush.

Esposito has slowed down in recent years, and he has had to contend lately with unwelcome rumors that he will be traded. "Not long ago I would have been happy to play somewhere else," he says. "But now this club has the potential to win the Stanley Cup in the next year or two, and I'd like to be part of it."

May 28, 1979 - They Were Singing That Old Song Again
"Boy, did I play rotten," said Ranger Center Phil Esposito. Part of Esposito's problem was his concern with Bowman's tactics. Two of Montreal's lesser-known defensemen, Rod Langway and Rick Chartraw, had been a little too aggressive for Espo's liking during the first two games, and he went on record as saying they were Bowman's personal messengers of ill will. Bowman and Esposito had held a mutual grudge since the 1976 Canada Cup tournament, in which Esposito was unceremoniously benched by the Canadiens' coach. In one amusing interview back in New York, Ranger major-domo Sonny Werblin accused Bowman of sending Langway onto the ice to "ram his stick into Espo's eyes" and called for his banishment from the world of sport.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,105
1,391
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Does anyone think Esposito, Clarke or Trottier were greater than Mikita?
Yes, yes, and yes. [And I have Sentinel to keep me company, so I'm not alone in this viewpoint.]

Just noted another interesting stat-line: for all of Bobby Clarke's playoff-leadership reputation, he exceeded a point-a-game in annual playoff runs once. Mikita's scarcely any better, only doing do twice. Of course, this is not close to being comparable with playoff scoring counts for Trottier, Esposito, and especially Messier. I recognize that this is a cross-era comparison- but Mikita's playoff totals are not particularly remarkable when compared to his star-forward contemporaries, either.

Trottier, Messier, Esposito is still the knot I have to work to untie.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,812
16,549
Yes, yes, and yes. [And I have Sentinel to keep me company, so I'm not alone in this viewpoint.]

Just noted another interesting stat-line: for all of Bobby Clarke's playoff-leadership reputation, he exceeded a point-a-game in annual playoff runs once. Mikita's scarcely any better, only doing do twice. Of course, this is not close to being comparable with playoff scoring counts for Trottier, Esposito, and especially Messier. I recognize that this is a cross-era comparison- but Mikita's playoff totals are not particularly remarkable when compared to his star-forward contemporaries, either.

Trottier, Messier, Esposito is still the knot I have to work to untie. [/COLOR]

A real good bottom 3 as far as im concerned.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
A couple of things I found interesting from the above SI quotes:

The 1967 article on Mikita and the Scooter line. Interesting that he explicitly said that they didn't play "Stanley Cup playoffs" hockey - you'd never hear anyone say that today, and it points to the decreased importance of the regular season championship since that time.

I also hadn't realized that Mikita's back started giving him problems starting in 1967-68. That explains a lot to me. Back problems can really rob a player of explosiveness and ability to drive possession at even strength, and Mikita seems to have struggled with back problems from his late 20s on. So he was still a faceoff wizard and a skilled offensive player, but not as effective in controlling the play all over the ice.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,165
7,300
Regina, SK
Just noted another interesting stat-line: for all of Bobby Clarke's playoff-leadership reputation, he exceeded a point-a-game in annual playoff runs once. Mikita's scarcely any better, only doing do twice.

Mikita exceeded a point per game in 1962, 1973, 1968, 1970 and 1964. He also had exactly a point per game in 1971 and 1974.

So that's five by your literal criteria of exceeding, or seven if a point per game counts.

Clarke himself had five, including three at exactly a PPG.

Curious, where do you get stats from?
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,251
1,643
Chicago, IL
Voting Open

Voting for Round 2, Vote 1 is now open and will close on Sunday November 3rd at 11:00pm EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 1 will be for places 1 through 4 on the Top 60 list. Please rank your Top 8 candidates.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Jean Beliveau
Bobby Clarke
Phil Esposito
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Mark Messier
Stan Mikita
Howie Morenz
Bryan Trottier
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
Trottier is really getting short-changed here

How so he is in this round?

The list above is alphabetical not an order.

I like him alot but this is really stiff competition here and his star faded quicker than some others here.

Voted after Wayne and my number 2 guy and the guy to leave off it was very hard and could or would switch them around on a different day, Just so much talent and excellent resumes here.

Next round will get even more difficult IMO.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,294
6,488
South Korea
Trottier is really getting short-changed here
He moved up one spot from my initial list. i remember him well. He rivals Espo in terms of toughness and ability to handle physical abuse from defenders. He is one of the strongest forwards in NHL history (Howe and Messier among them), an aspect often overlooked.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,706
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Another thing that was touched upon in Trottier's discussion is that he kept Gretzky's Oilers names off the Cup for a few years. When you eliminate arguably the best offensive machine of all time, that says something about your #1 center (who is also one of your top defensive forwards). Surely, Oilers were not at their peak yet, but one of the reasons that they weren't, was Trottier's Isles. Oh, and I don't think there is much question that in 84, had the Isles encountered someone other than arguably the greatest offensive machine of all time, the have the Cup #5 in the bag. What Cup fatigue? Five Cups in a row in modern era!
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,812
16,549
Another thing that was touched upon in Trottier's discussion is that he kept Gretzky's Oilers names off the Cup for a few years. When you eliminate arguably the best offensive machine of all time, that says something about your #1 center (who is also one of your top defensive forwards). Surely, Oilers were not at their peak yet, but one of the reasons that they weren't, was Trottier's Isles. Oh, and I don't think there is much question that in 84, had the Isles encountered someone other than arguably the greatest offensive machine of all time, the have the Cup #5 in the bag. What Cup fatigue? Five Cups in a row in modern era!

That's a very good argument for 9th spot.
 

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