Round 2, Vote 1 (2009 update)

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
29,495
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Connecticut
I do not consider hits that are within legal parameters of the game to be dirty. Potvin laid out his share of headshots if people were stupid enough to cross his blueline with their heads down.

Dick "Night Train" Lane used to tackle players by the face guard before the NFL made it illegal. He was considered dirty both before and after the rule change.

In my opinion, the shoulder to the head hit should be illegal.
 
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Dark Shadows

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Jun 19, 2007
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Canada
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Dick "Night Train" Lane used to tackle players by the face guard before the NFL made it illegal. He was considered dirty both before and after the rule change.

In my opinion, the shoulder to the head hit should be illegal.

And In my opinion, Removing shoulder to head hits would be a detriment to the game of Hockey. Perfectly legal hits as long as they are open ice and not crushing someone's head into the boards like a melon.

What Exactly is Zdeno Chara or Chris Pronger supposed to do when he has someone lined up for open ice hit? Let up on it? They have absolutely no target except for the head given their size. Many bigger players who go for open ice hits have a 6+ inch size advantage that makes it near impossible to throw a shoulder hit below head level to the plethora of 5'11 guys.

Shoulder Hits to the head are fine if a player decides he wants to spend more time watching his stickhandling than the players converging around them.

Back in the day, when you caught someone open ice with a wallop to the head, players on the opposing team generally spent more time berating their own player for putting their head down than anything.
 

Weztex

Registered User
Feb 6, 2006
3,113
3,701
I send my vote. Sorry I didn't participate. I hope to enter the debate as soon as possible. I would have had a lot to discuss/learn about the Morenz case especially.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,495
17,927
Connecticut
And In my opinion, Removing shoulder to head hits would be a detriment to the game of Hockey. Perfectly legal hits as long as they are open ice and not crushing someone's head into the boards like a melon.

What Exactly is Zdeno Chara or Chris Pronger supposed to do when he has someone lined up for open ice hit? Let up on it? They have absolutely no target except for the head given their size. Many bigger players who go for open ice hits have a 6+ inch size advantage that makes it near impossible to throw a shoulder hit below head level to the plethora of 5'11 guys.

Shoulder Hits to the head are fine if a player decides he wants to spend more time watching his stickhandling than the players converging around them.

Back in the day, when you caught someone open ice with a wallop to the head, players on the opposing team generally spent more time berating their own player for putting their head down than anything.

And how many guys have Chara or Pronger hospitalized with "clean" open ice hits like Stevens? I haven't seen Chara do it. Not sure about Pronger, but I'm sure he's nowhere near Stevens body count. No one is. Besides, Stevens was only 6-2. Lindros was bigger and he still got to his head and Francis was taller and he caught him in the chin along the boards, not even on a rush. Shane Willis he knocked out with 10 seconds left in a game that wasn't close. To me Stevens was head-hunter, regardless of the rule.
 

Dark Shadows

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Jun 19, 2007
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And how many guys have Chara or Pronger hospitalized with "clean" open ice hits like Stevens? I haven't seen Chara do it. Not sure about Pronger, but I'm sure he's nowhere near Stevens body count. No one is. Besides, Stevens was only 6-2. Lindros was bigger and he still got to his head and Francis was taller and he caught him in the chin along the boards, not even on a rush. Shane Willis he knocked out with 10 seconds left in a game that wasn't close. To me Stevens was head-hunter, regardless of the rule.

Lindros was never able to get over himself from his junior years, when he could skate with his head down and people who tried to check him just bounced off his chest, and the biggest reason he was put out so long from the Stevens hit was because he had still not recovered from the previous concussions.

Neither of them have hospitalized anyone because neither of them have the raw power of Scott Stevens when it came to open ice hits. Stevens hits decimated those stupid enough to put their heads down and concentrate on keeping the puck on their stick, much like many other open ice hits in History, but all of them were clean clean clean. Few had the instincts or mobility combined with freak of nature upper body strength Stevens had, and fewer still have the ability to read the play and know when they can get away with an open ice hit without getting burned if they miss. Stevens was perfect at both, and thus, opposing forwards were on record for saying "I always make a mental note of when he is on the ice. It makes crossing the Devils blueline and playing in their zone a whole different ballgame"

The minute you take those factors out of the game of Hockey, we all lose.

It always has been and always will be fine to punish people with open ice hits. The alternative is unthinkable. The moment you ban open ice hits to the head, every single player alters their stride and skates in a manner which leaves their head down, causing penalties every time they get hit, thus, making people decide not to throw hits. Eventually, hitting is a thing of the past.

The exact same thing happened when they created the hitting from behind penalty. Now every player who goes along the boards intentionally turns their back and numbers to whoever is rushing at them so that they are no longer allowed to be hit, limiting the opposing players actions to tying them up along the boards or risking a penalty.

The vast majority of greats who were questioned about Scott's open ice hits called them clean. From Larry Robinson to Scotty Bowman.

The NHL(And various Hockey journalists) did several pieces on how clean and vicious Scott Stevens open ice hits were, and how they made him the player he was. Few are those who question the veracity of clean open ice hits in the game of Hockey.

I accept that we have differing opinions on the matter, but you have to realize you are in a very small minority if you think clean open ice hits need to go and that players who throw them are dirty.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Bobby Orr Says..................

And how many guys have Chara or Pronger hospitalized with "clean" open ice hits like Stevens? I haven't seen Chara do it. Not sure about Pronger, but I'm sure he's nowhere near Stevens body count. No one is. Besides, Stevens was only 6-2. Lindros was bigger and he still got to his head and Francis was taller and he caught him in the chin along the boards, not even on a rush. Shane Willis he knocked out with 10 seconds left in a game that wasn't close. To me Stevens was head-hunter, regardless of the rule.

Suspect the opinion of Bobby Orr one of the greatest to play the game is worth considering and it should carry more weight than others:

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id=d9db43d7-e220-4dba-8a72-8aec0bbd626c&p=2

A few paragraphs down.

Hitting has been part of the game BUT not intentional hits to the head especially when the impetus of the blow is upwards, like an upper cut to the head.

A few classic examples.

Pat Quinn on Bobby Orr during a 1969 Maple Leaf / Bruins playoff game was an elbow to the head, leaving his feet, dirty hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWpW-Z3BmY


The Larry Robinson hit on Gary Dornhoefer in game one of the 1976 Finals was a clean hit. Dented the boards and the game had to be stopped for repairs but Robinson did not target the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKd4HJNSbQg

Difference - the Quinn hit caused a major brawl while the Robinson hit was part of the game, no brawl.

In the Trottier thread there is a video of Trottier delivering clean solid hits on Bobby Clarke and Wayne Gretzky, Fundamental low man wins hit, shoulder to body.

BTW Scott Stevens had to retire because of ........................
 
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FissionFire

Registered User
Dec 22, 2006
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www.redwingscentral.com
There seems to be quite a bit of confusion in terms of the voting. The voting is for all the players listed in post 2, not just the top 10. Please make sure you send your rankings for all the players when you vote. I'll give everyone a little extra time to do this since I do not want to toss out any ballots for being incomplete. So far, the only posters I have not gotten votes from are papershoes, Pwnasaurus, quoipourquoi, raleh, seventieslord, and TheGoldenJet. Voters who submitted an incomplete ballot have already been contacted.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,812
16,549
Proper votes sent.

Top 10 not added yet:
Lafleur
Sawchuk
Potvin
Lindsay
Kelly
Messier
Hall
Esposito
Clarke
Robinson

I completely lost my original list, but I really suspect my Top-10 not in yet is a bit like yours (although not the same order, pretty sure the 1st unranked is Potvin, while Lafleur probably stands 4th or 5ht). The only thing I know is that Messier is out and Lidstrom is in. For the record, I think Potvin was the guy that got that 15th place. And if it wasn't him, it would be him right now.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
Proper votes sent.

Top 10 not added yet:
Lafleur
Sawchuk
Potvin
Lindsay
Kelly
Messier
Hall
Esposito
Clarke
Robinson

I had Lafleur up that high too, but this seems like you might be underrating modern players in general. Messier peaked in the late 80s/early 90s, and then you have a bunch of guys who peaked in the 70s and earlier.
 
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God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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I had Lafleur up that high too, but this seems like you might be underrating modern players in general. Messier peaked in the late 80s/early 90s, and then you have a bunch of guys who peaked in the 70s and earlier.
But there are also five guys from the post-79 era on this list already. Gretz and Lemieux will be voted in. And I wouldn't be surprised if Hasek, Roy and Bourque are voting options in Round 2. (All three were in my 11-15 range for the last round).

I think I have six players in my top 21 who peaked in the last 30 years. That's not that out of line.

Lafleur (13) and Sawchuk (15) were the only two players in my top 15 who did not appear on the ballot this round.
 

BM67

Registered User
Mar 5, 2002
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My top 15 was the players up for voting this round, but I doubt that happens with the next vote.

My next top not added yet:
Alphabetical

Bobby Clarke
Bill Cook
Phil Esposito
Glenn Hall
Jaromir Jagr
Red Kelly
Newsy Lalonde
Ted Lindsay
Denis Potvin
Cyclone Taylor
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,495
17,927
Connecticut
Lindros was never able to get over himself from his junior years, when he could skate with his head down and people who tried to check him just bounced off his chest, and the biggest reason he was put out so long from the Stevens hit was because he had still not recovered from the previous concussions.

Neither of them have hospitalized anyone because neither of them have the raw power of Scott Stevens when it came to open ice hits. Stevens hits decimated those stupid enough to put their heads down and concentrate on keeping the puck on their stick, much like many other open ice hits in History, but all of them were clean clean clean. Few had the instincts or mobility combined with freak of nature upper body strength Stevens had, and fewer still have the ability to read the play and know when they can get away with an open ice hit without getting burned if they miss. Stevens was perfect at both, and thus, opposing forwards were on record for saying "I always make a mental note of when he is on the ice. It makes crossing the Devils blueline and playing in their zone a whole different ballgame"

The minute you take those factors out of the game of Hockey, we all lose.

It always has been and always will be fine to punish people with open ice hits. The alternative is unthinkable. The moment you ban open ice hits to the head, every single player alters their stride and skates in a manner which leaves their head down, causing penalties every time they get hit, thus, making people decide not to throw hits. Eventually, hitting is a thing of the past.

The exact same thing happened when they created the hitting from behind penalty. Now every player who goes along the boards intentionally turns their back and numbers to whoever is rushing at them so that they are no longer allowed to be hit, limiting the opposing players actions to tying them up along the boards or risking a penalty.

The vast majority of greats who were questioned about Scott's open ice hits called them clean. From Larry Robinson to Scotty Bowman.

The NHL(And various Hockey journalists) did several pieces on how clean and vicious Scott Stevens open ice hits were, and how they made him the player he was. Few are those who question the veracity of clean open ice hits in the game of Hockey.

I accept that we have differing opinions on the matter, but you have to realize you are in a very small minority if you think clean open ice hits need to go and that players who throw them are dirty.

I think you are using the term "clean" instead of the proper term, "legal".

I don't accept that Stevens hits were clean, but I must recognize them as legal.

Funny you use the term vicious. I think its perfect to describe Stevens hits. Brings to mind Howe, Messier, Chelios, Hunter moreso than Keon, Gretzky, Sakic, Yzerman.

And I will accept my spot in the minority.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,495
17,927
Connecticut
My top 15 was the players up for voting this round, but I doubt that happens with the next vote.

My next top not added yet:
Alphabetical

Bobby Clarke
Bill Cook
Phil Esposito
Glenn Hall
Jaromir Jagr
Red Kelly
Newsy Lalonde
Ted Lindsay
Denis Potvin
Cyclone Taylor

Sounds like this year's list isn't going to be much different from last year's.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,812
16,549
Sounds like this year's list isn't going to be much different from last year's.

Actually, it would be abnormal if the Top-10 is significantly different than it was last year. I can see only two guys going up or down of more than two spots (amongst the guys that were in the Top-10 last year).
 

habsjunkie2*

Guest
For a guy that had some goalies very highly rated last time I actally may not have any in my first vote this time around. Of course my revision of the list (not the one I sent in, the one I've made since then) would have FIVE in the next round of voting so it kindof evens out in the end.

Right now the top 4 are the top 4 (Orr, Howe, Mario, Wayne)
5: Hull
6: Richard
7: Beliveau
8-10: Harvey, Bourque, Shore

The order on the last 3 is going to be subject to change of course.

With a list like this you shouldn't have been allowed to vote.
 

habsjunkie2*

Guest
Gretzky is definitely a top 4 guy but why not # 4. I have him at # 4. I saw Orr, Lemieux, Howe & Getzky play. I think Orr & Lemieux were more talented. I missed gordie's peak but did follow him post peak & think he had the better career. Plus all 3 were better physically & defensively.

On what planet was Lemieux better defensively than Gretzky? The anti Gretzky argument is quite ridiculous around here. There is no logical reason to have him out of the top 3, it's extremely difficult to make a case he isn't number 1.

Gordie had the better career than Gretzky, but Gretzky didn't have the better career than Orr or Mario? sure thing. You Gretzky haters are embarrassing. Number 4, lol. Anyone who puts Wayne number 4 should never be allowed to post again, it shows a little lack of understanding what's gone on and takes credibility away from any of your other posts.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Lemieux Defensively

On what planet was Lemieux better defensively than Gretzky? The anti Gretzky argument is quite ridiculous around here. There is no logical reason to have him out of the top 3, it's extremely difficult to make a case he isn't number 1.

Gordie had the better career than Gretzky, but Gretzky didn't have the better career than Orr or Mario? sure thing. You Gretzky haters are embarrassing. Number 4, lol. Anyone who puts Wayne number 4 should never be allowed to post again, it shows a little lack of understanding what's gone on and takes credibility away from any of your other posts.

Mario Lemieux pre NHL in the QMJHL was very good defensively. First year in the league as a 16 year old he had a good sense of defensive position plus his long reach and the fact that he was a RHS gave him a number of natural advantages that he was able to exploit.Wayne Gretzky a LHS did not have the same reach advantage.

In the NHL neither was played on teams that placed great defensive demands on the players - Lemieux's tenure under Bob Johnson followed by Scotty Bowman being the exception. Also both faced more match-ups against the opponents defensive center than other players so the expectations were not that high either.

A small snapshot of how both were used defensively with results. The PK. Gretzky scored 73 SH goals in 1487 regular season games and 11 SH goals in 208 playoff games while Lemieux scored 49 SH goals in 915 regular season games and 7 in 107 playoff games.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
Mario Lemieux pre NHL in the QMJHL was very good defensively[/B]. First year in the league as a 16 year old he had a good sense of defensive position plus his long reach and the fact that he was a RHS gave him a number of natural advantages that he was able to exploit.Wayne Gretzky a LHS did not have the same reach advantage.

In the NHL neither was played on teams that placed great defensive demands on the players - Lemieux's tenure under Bob Johnson followed by Scotty Bowman being the exception. Also both faced more match-ups against the opponents defensive center than other players so the expectations were not that high either.

A small snapshot of how both were used defensively with results. The PK. Gretzky scored 73 SH goals in 1487 regular season games and 11 SH goals in 208 playoff games while Lemieux scored 49 SH goals in 915 regular season games and 7 in 107 playoff games.

In the early 80's, any forward who even made an attempt to stickcheck was a defensive forward in the Q.

Let's not try to rewrite history here, Mario was the most gifted offensive player of all time, he spent very little time or effort playing defense other than trying to keep the puck and outscore the other team.

Also SHG in the 80's is not the same as defensive play when referring to Wayne and Mario.
 

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