Roster Speculation part XXII

[cybresabre]

Isles are a new name, but should be somewhat expected. They should just carry in cardboard cutouts of Moulson and Okposo, and tell Vesey they can make him a very rich Buffalo Sabre if he chooses to first play with the Isles.

Plus they have the Katie Ledecky angle.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I think one thing we as Sabres fans may have overlooked is, he is going to hit RFA the same time as Eichel and Reinhart. I'm curious if thats a negative for him, because he realizes that Eichel and Reinhart are going to get paid irregardless, and with O'Reilly and Okposo locked up long term...maybe him and his dad have done some napkin math and realized that they could be a cap casualty here.

I don't see an issue. We're dropping Franson, Gorges, and Gionta from the books by then. That's $11.5M. Kane's $5.25M may come off the books soon. And if Murray works in a trade to Vegas to take Moulson, there's $5M more.

You do all that, and you've got almost $22M in room. Plenty of space.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I've pointed this out before. I think your take is about right.

I don't personally see the fit. He has to beat out two of Ennis, Girgensons, Kane to get a top 6 spot. And I think most likely he knows where his top choice is anyways, and couldn't say so, now has to go through the motions to demonstrate good faith. He didn't quit on his NHL team when they offered him a top 6 spot in the playoffs - which was ridiculously fortunate for him - because he just fancied hearing some pitches, imo. He had to really want to be somewhere specific, and has for a year and a half, I'd wager.

Role three scoring lines, as Jame suggested and a lot of us have been asking for.

I say the chances of Kane and Ennis being on the team long term are low.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Considering that Bogo really wasn't consistently even a good top-4 d-man defensively, it wouldd require him making major strides there - taking himself defensively on a level he hasn't really been ever on at least somehow regular basis.

I was one of those few posters back then who really didn't write him off or advocated to get rid of him rather than actually giving him another real opportunity while acknowledging the special abilities he is able to bring.

While that being said, I have never thought that he could reach that elite level. While everything is possible, it is quite a reach to expect that happen.

And "easing QoC" for Risto and actually having the bigger burden on QoC are two really different things.

Risto's QoC burden, d-zone starts and TOI in general has to be cut from last year, but that doesn't mean that the second pairing should or would take the higher burden.

Last year Risto's QoC number was around 1,4 and Bogo's around 0,6. What you should do, is to get the numbers closer to each other. Like 1,15 and 0,85, while giving Risto more o-zone starts (will happen also by just becoming a better possession team).

How many teams in this league you see that are able to give lesser role defensively on their legit 1#? Last season there probably wasn't any (maximum one, if you think that Burns is a legit 1# with a great two-way game).

No offense, but I'm taking jBuds opinion on this topic. If he thinks he can make the move, so do I.

QOC: Chicago puts a heavy workload on Hjalmarsson. That doesn't mean Keith and Seabrook don't take on quality opponents. It just means that Chicago has a pairing that can take on equal or greater defensive responsibility.

You're talking about the details of QOC numbers, and who's actually higher, etc. I don't really care, since this is a conceptual conversation. You build the team, use it for what it's built, and analyze the numbers in stride to make adjustments and see if it's working. I'm not building the team based of QOC numbers.

 

[Jame]

You're making an argument of what management or coaching could do to make Vesey fit. Vesey doesn't control any of those things. He looks at a roster and says, they have Okposo and Reinhart on RW. They have Kane, Ennis, and Girgensons all potentially on LW. How am I sure I'd get top 6 opportunities. And he compares that to his competition in Chicago.

I'm sure Bylsma and Murray failed to walk him through their vision for him...

The entire point of trading for his rights was to have the time to sit down with him

 

[brian_griffin]

You're making an argument of what management or coaching could do to make Vesey fit. Vesey doesn't control any of those things. He looks at a roster and says, they have Okposo and Reinhart on RW. They have Kane, Ennis, and Girgensons all potentially on LW. How am I sure I'd get top 6 opportunities. And he compares that to his competition in Chicago.

What Vesey allegedly wants is opportunity to put up numbers which will maximize the payday on his second pro contract. Most people translate that desire to exclusively mean Vesey needs/wants a top-6 role, either 1st line or 2nd line LW on a team with a traditional 4th line.

If it were me, I'd tell Vesey he can have a crack with Vesey-Eichel-Girgensons/Reinhart, heavy OZS and PP time.

btw, If you're going to invoke another franchise, Toronto is more barren on the left wing than Chicago, unless I missed some of the Leafs offseason moves.

Pretty sure New Jersey could guarantee a slot Vesey to as a top-6 LW. You think New Jersey will break 200 goals next season?

 

[brian_griffin]

Plus they have the Katie Ledecky angle.

I thought she's a Caps fan?

 

[TehDoak]

I thought she's a Caps fan?

(her dad owns the Isles)

 

[haseoke39]

I'm sure Bylsma and Murray failed to walk him through their vision for him...

The entire point of trading for his rights was to have the time to sit down with him

Yeah, but that's not going to change the roster. They can give him a good song and dance, but unless they promise him "we're playing you with Eichel no matter what until it works" or something similarly unwise, he's still looking at a roster that doesn't have a specific hole with his name on it unless he outplays a young, talented, more experienced player.

"You'll be given a chance to succeed here" and "we'd like to see how you look in our top 6" or "you might be a great winger for Eichel long-term" all sounds great, but he knows this stuff already. Then he sits down with his agent and they say, yeah, worst-case scenario, you're competing for third line minutes with Brian Gionta, Larsson, Matt Moulson, and one of Ennis, Kane, or Girgensons -- it could work out great, but there are probably clearer openings on other teams.

Not to mention the second contract angle. So unless it works out fabulously for him in years 1 and 2, he'll pretty much be competing for whatever money is left after Samson and Jack cash in. Not going to be a strong negotiating environment for him.

I don't think he's seriously considering us anyways, but even if he were, I don't think we make a good pitch except in the fan daydream where we construct our roster around making him fit, which he has no rational reason to buy.

 

[haseoke39]

If it were me, I'd tell Vesey he can have a crack with Vesey-Eichel-Girgensons/Reinhart, heavy OZS and PP time.

Every team in the league will promise him "a crack" at a scoring line slot. Doesn't change who he has to beat out to keep that role.

 

[Jame]

Yeah, but that's not going to change the roster. They can give him a good song and dance, but unless they promise him "we're playing you with Eichel no matter what until it works" or something similarly unwise, he's still looking at a roster that doesn't have a specific hole with his name on it unless he outplays a young, talented, more experienced player.

If Vesey doesn't trust Byslma/Murray then it doesn't matter what the roster looks like...

"You'll be given a chance to succeed here" and "we'd like to see how you look in our top 6" or "you might be a great winger for Eichel long-term" all sounds great, but he knows this stuff already. Then he sits down with his agent and they say, yeah, worst-case scenario, you're competing for third line minutes with Brian Gionta, Larsson, Matt Moulson, and one of Ennis, Kane, or Girgensons -- it could work out great, but there are probably clearer openings on other teams.

That nonsense view can be done with each and every team...

"worst case scenario, you're competing for 3rd line minutes with Tyler Motte and Andrew Desjardins, it would work out great, but there are probably clearer LW top 6 opportunities in Buffalo where they are trying to get rid of a rapist, and have a concussed midget, with no all star (panarin) owning one of those ideal roster spots.... last year, no LWer established himself with Eichel the way Panarin has with Kane..."

Vesey had the confidence in himself to take this all the way to free agency. But you want us to believe that he doesn't have the confidence to beat out Tyler Ennis for a spot on Jack Eichel, his buddy, whom he already has chemistry with.... please.

 

[cybresabre]

(her dad owns the Isles)

I wasn't there at conception, but her uncle is part owner of the Isles.

 

[brian_griffin]

Every team in the league will promise him "a crack" at a scoring line slot. Doesn't change who he has to beat out to keep that role.

Clearly then, he should sign with Toronto.

 

[joshjull]

I can see that, but I worry about McCabe and Ristolainen growing together. I'd rather Ristolainen lean on someone, and put McCabe on the third pair. Maybe with Gorges. I think let them grow separately.

That's certainly a legit concern. But I think taking Risto away from the top defensive matchup would enable him to be more effective defensively and could cover for McCabe. Plus playing with McCabe takes a ton of pressure off Risto to bring all the offense for his pairing. Which would be the case if he played with Gorges. Bascially those two (McCabe/RIsto) could be effective by attacking a lot more than a Gorges/Risto pairing.


Your 5 dman rotation idea: Not a bad idea down the line when Risto is further developed. Not sure its something he could handle right now. You need that stud to do this since the teams you and others reference had them (Keith/Doughty/Chara). It also seems like more of a playoff thing. Although the Kings have played Doughty a ton in the regular season since Voynov left.

 

[The_Puck_Hog]

Well, if 12:01 comes and Vesey announces he signed with anyone except the Sabres, HF boards could get ugly.

Prepare for the ugliness .... ala Babcock...

 

[Dubi Doo]

Isles are a new name, but should be somewhat expected. They should just carry in cardboard cutouts of Moulson and Okposo, and tell Vesey they can make him a very rich Buffalo Sabre if he chooses to first play with the Isles.

Holy lord that's a lot of teams to meet with in one day. Makes the trade look all the better when you consider the amount of time the Sabres had to talk with his agent and show him around Buffalo on draft day.

 

[Samsonite23]

Holy lord that's a lot of teams to meet with in one day. Makes the trade look all the better when you consider the amount of time the Sabres had to talk with his agent and show him around Buffalo on draft day.

Was thinking the same thing.

 

[jc17]

Holy lord that's a lot of teams to meet with in one day. Makes the trade look all the better when you consider the amount of time the Sabres had to talk with his agent and show him around Buffalo on draft day.

How do you think they're meeting. Do you think he's actually flying to those cities or finding a few central location?

 

[LetsDoughBuffalo]

I know it's a few days old now, but Vermette signing in Anaheim for 3 and change per, seems kind of strange doesn't it?

Not that I think we're 100% in the market for sure, but you'd think they definitely HAVE to move Fowler, or possibly even Lindholm now, don't they?

 

[NotABadPeriod]

How do you think they're meeting. Do you think he's actually flying to those cities or finding a few central location?

He's probably sitting in Boston and they're coming to him.

Still, at the end of the day he's going to feel meeting-ed out. And if there are more teams to meet with tomorrow (Chicago?)...

 

[jcbeze]

I know it's a few days old now, but Vermette signing in Anaheim for 3 and change per, seems kind of strange doesn't it?

Not that I think we're 100% in the market for sure, but you'd think they definitely HAVE to move Fowler, or possibly even Lindholm now, don't they?

Vermette 1.75 AAV

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Three scoring lines is unsustainable barring two more good forwards or playing Ennis at 4C.

 

[jc17]

He's probably sitting in Boston and they're coming to him.

Still, at the end of the day he's going to feel meeting-ed out. And if there are more teams to meet with tomorrow (Chicago?)...

Ok, so I guess it is good that he was in Buffalo.

I'm guessing tomorrow is Chicago, Boston, and NYR.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

I've read a few times in that Vesey thread on the main board that his dad is sick. I couldn't find anything searching google, but if true that could be a game changer. I would put Boston at the top of the list if his dad is truly battling something serious.

 

[TehDoak]

Prepare for the ugliness .... ala Babcock...

The difference being is that his wife isn't going to veto his decision to come to Buffalo

I wonder if Mike Harrington is going to drive his ass to Vesey's press conference and ask embarrassing questions again if he signs else where