Roster focus

[RSPens]

I know that we are currently running polls to see what HFboards think the starting lineup should be. I am just curious to see what people would prefer to focus on.

It is most likely that Sully is going to play the top players on the top two lines. My concern with this is that it leaves the team with 2 good lines and 2 lines that can't score.

So the question is would people prefer 2 stacked lines or 2 lines with some top end talent but with complementary players and have some talent on the 3rd line.

Option 1:
Jake - Sid - Kapp
Zucker - Geno - Rust
Who knows - McCann - Who cares

Option 2:
Jake - Sid - tryout (Tanev, Lafferty, Jank, Poulin, other)
Zucker/McCann - Geno - Rust/Kapp/ tryout
Zucker/Rust - McCann/Jank/Blueger - Kapp/Rust/Tryout (depending on what happens with the top 2 lines)

Click to read more...

 

[Tom Hanks]

With the current roster definitely two stacked lines.

 

[Gurglesons]

As currently constructed and given the cost we paid to get Kapanen and Zucker you have to try them all in the top six.

I assume one of Zucker, Kapanen or Rust will see time on L3 though by the end of the season which hopefully means one of O'Connor, Poulin or someone yet to be determined made their way up into the top six.

 

[RSPens]

Well there have only been 3 votes so far, but I am just going to throw this out there...what happened the last time the Pens had their best winger on the third line?

 

[Gurglesons]

Well there have only been 3 votes so far, but I am just going to throw this out there...what happened the last time the Pens had their best winger on the third line?

I don't think that is a fair comparison.

 

[RSPens]

I don't think that is a fair comparison.

By no means am I saying that we put Jake on the 3rd. But the point I am trying to make is that the team tends to be more successful when spreading the talent around.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Well there have only been 3 votes so far, but I am just going to throw this out there...what happened the last time the Pens had their best winger on the third line?

There’s a lot of moving parts. Just putting our best winger on the 3rd line probably won’t be successful given the current roster.

 

[RSPens]

There’s a lot of moving parts. Just putting our best winger on the 3rd line probably won’t be successful given the current roster.

I agree with that and as I just mentioned I wouldn't want Jake on the third line. I just feel like if we are expecting Sid and Geno to carry the team and not putting any real talent on the third line, the team is going to flounder. The third line needs more than McCann and spare parts for it to be successful. Geno and Sid can be successful with one genuine talent each and a spare part, freeing up at least one player to help the third line.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Sid is 33
Geno is 34

At this point in time they can no longer go into "god mode" and will us through a PO series, let alone some regular season games. To maximize what they can still do, we need to pair them with our utmost best wingers possible

 

[RSPens]

Sid is 33
Geno is 34

At this point in time they can no longer go into "god mode" and will us through a PO series, let alone some regular season games. To maximize what they can still do, we need to pair them with our utmost best wingers possible

But aren't you concerned with their endurance and the fact that they can't be on the ice every shift and that by having nothing of quality in the bottom 6 forces this?

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

But aren't you concerned with their endurance and the fact that they can't be on the ice every shift and that by having nothing of quality in the bottom 6 forces this?

Their endurance is reflected in their lessened ice time, they no longer play 20+ mins a night like they did in their 20s. They now play 17-18 mins a night to maximize their impact on the ice. And to maximize that impact, you play them with our best players.

Sure every team would like an effective 3 lines of scoring, but not at a detriment to their top 2 lines. We have the makings of a decent bottom 6 this year, maybe your idea can be revisited if our bottom 6 becomes an offensive blackhole

 

[RSPens]

Their endurance is reflected in their lessened ice time, they no longer play 20+ mins a night like they did in their 20s. They now play 17-18 mins a night to maximize their impact on the ice. And to maximize that impact, you play them with our best players.

Sure every team would like an effective 3 lines of scoring, but not at a detriment to their top 2 lines. We have the makings of a decent bottom 6 this year, maybe your idea can be revisited if our bottom 6 becomes an offensive blackhole

Who is going to score in the bottom 6? If you think McCann, then who is going to get McCann the puck? If you reduce Sid and Geno's ice time, then you are also reducing the other top players ice time, then that means you are playing the 3rd and 4th lines more. With the season being compacted as it is going to be, it will be crucial to control everyone's icetime and I would rather have a 3rd line that I can count on for some goals, then having to completely rely on Sid and Geno. It also makes it more challenging for the opponent as they would have to spread their defensive talent around to contain 3 lines instead of 2.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I agree with that and as I just mentioned I wouldn't want Jake on the third line. I just feel like if we are expecting Sid and Geno to carry the team and not putting any real talent on the third line, the team is going to flounder. The third line needs more than McCann and spare parts for it to be successful. Geno and Sid can be successful with one genuine talent each and a spare part, freeing up at least one player to help the third line.

That’s what we have though.

I think you might be understating Blueger. I think he’s more important to us than McCann. L3 is just missing one player. I don’t think we have it internally. We may but the probability isn’t great and 1 injury throws a lot out of whack. We don’t have strong depth.

Our spare parts aren’t great though as in top 6 options. We need to keep the status quote of quality wingers in the top 6 and add 1 more good piece for L3. I don’t think that’s in the current plans though

 

[RSPens]

That’s what we have though.

I think you might be understating Blueger. I think he’s more important to us than McCann. L3 is just missing one player. I don’t think we have it internally. We may but the probability isn’t great and 1 injury throws a lot out of whack. We don’t have strong depth.

Our spare parts aren’t great though as in top 6 options. We need to keep the status quote of quality wingers in the top 6 and add 1 more good piece for L3. I don’t think that’s in the current plans though

I really like Blueger and I agree that they should lean on him a little more. I feel like Sully will have Blueger and Tanev stuck together (its not hard to see why) and if the plan is for a 3rd line of McCann -TB-Tanev, then it could work. I just keep going back to the thought that JR wants McCann to be the 3rd line centre, which forces TB to be the 4th line centre and Tanev to be on the 4th with him. This situation leaves nothing really desirable for on the 3rd line with McCann. It's not that I don't think ERod, Lafferty, Jank, Poulin or whoever else can't cut it, but they don't exactly help McCann. As I have said before, for McCann to be the 3c he needs a playmaker and a possession player. If Simon was still here, then the team would already have the possession player and would just be trying to find a playmaker for on the line.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Stack the 4th. No one will expect that.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Stack the 4th. No one will expect that.

They’ll never know what hit them

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Well the issue is we don't have anything in the bottom 6 that is complimentary and in the top 6 there isn't much to spread around to make it work. I mean are we thinking McCann should be the LW in the top 6? How would that work, how has that looked in the past (not great in terms of consistency).

If you have a strong RW (which we don't, I love my boy Rust and I have a lot of faith in Kappy being a bloke that will produce like Rust did last season, but the strong legit top 6 winger we have are Guentzel and Zucker), you might be able to split as it would then suggest we have 4 wingers that are serious legit top 6 wingers, but the truth of the matter is we have 2 LW's that are and 2 RW's that need to prove it on a more consistent basis.

This is why I wanted Blueger to be the 3c, then the team spends money on a proper top 9 winger to remedy that, but as usual, JR is a narrow minded moron and Sullivan chooses to never think outside of the box with his usage of Guentzel.

So what we are realistically looking at in the top 6 is:

Guentzel, Crosby, Kapanen
Zucker, Malkin, Rust

You look at that and you know that the 3rd and 4th line are just never going to produce because if they consider Jankowski a player that can distribute and produce, they are going to be in for a shock because McCann is a shooter and I don't know enough about Jankowski's game to suggest he will fill those gaps in any shape or form. What I do know is that Blueger is a more balanced player offensively in that same bottom 6 role and he's shown the ability to be a fantastic shutdown center.

Then you look at the rest - Rodrigues, Tanev, Aston-Reese, Sceviour, and Lafferty and it's not good.

What are we realistically looking at for production there?

Tanev 25-30 if we are lucky?
Rodrigues 15-20 if we are lucky?
ZAR 15-25 if we are lucky?

And so forth.

I still think it was highly unncessary to go after Jankowski and Ceci, that cap could have allowed this team to sign a decent top 9 winger and then move Rodrigues to 4C like I had originally spoken about before was traded in the Kappy trade, then rolled Blueger in the 3c spot. Because we know Blueger-Tanev works, you then need a LW and I just didn't know if McCann is good enough as a winger to be there but if ZAR worked, it was compelling enough to see how McCann-Blueger-Tanev could look which then means you maybe sign a better 4th line winger.

For me, I would have liked adding Granlund, he also plays W/C.

McCann, Blueger, Granlund
Tanev, Rodrigues, Lafferty/Sceviour

It would then be one of those - Would Granlund have taken 2-2.5m for 1yr? Should the team have just moved out Sceviour and kept Lafferty and another from WBS as the option (my choice vs keeping Sceviour) and then boosted that to 3-3.5m/1yr for Granlund.

That's where I am at with this.

The way Sullivan has used the bottom 6 and how JR has tried to fix it has just exacerbated this into the the massive black hole it's become, it's put so much pressure on the top 6 to perform and you can't really pull anything away from the top 6, are we screwing Malkin yet again with a McCann & Rust duo on his wings?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Looking at the 10 highest scoring teams last year, 8 of them stacked the top six. Seems to work just fine.

Our 3rd and 4th centers aren't good enough offensively to allocate skilled wingers to, at the expense of Sid and Geno.
We'll have 4 fringe NHL'ers in the forward group on opening night most likely. Our depth just isn't good enough to spread thin.

I just feel bad for McCann, who seems to be the odd man out. He's not gonna have much scoring help if Kapanen locks down his spot on L1.
Canner's skilled enough for top 6 duty. Think we haven't seen his best yet. 52 points in 98 games so far with us, largely in a bottom 6 role and without PP1 minutes.

But yeah, to summarize...
Health provided, the top 6 is definitely good enough to carry. I actually think Sid will be better than last year, since he was playing hurt all season. He's about to get the most help he's ever had in his career to start a season. And if Geno is 80% as good as he was in 2019-20, you got the makings of a very fearsome top 6 indeed.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Let's not even f***ing think about the fact that we gave up Horny for Matheson and Vatanen is still sitting there in free agency. If they wanted to dump that salary, they could have done far better in losing a top bloke like Horny, for the abundance in question marks Matheson brings and the usage this coaching staff might utilize him in that might make it great or a bigger disaster than JJ-Schultz.

Also to add to my previous post than this...

They also wasted in Cap in Riikola, a player they most likely won't utilize properly 3yrs running. A player I am confident in (might be alone in this) producing what Matheson would if they would use him in the same way they plan to use Matheson.

It's great seeing the tandem of JR&MS has f***ed this team so royally.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Let's not even f***ing think about the fact that we gave up Horny for Matheson and Vatanen is still sitting there in free agency. If they wanted to dump that salary, they could have done far better in losing a top bloke like Horny, for the abundance in question marks Matheson brings and the usage this coaching staff might utilize him in that might make it great or a bigger disaster than JJ-Schultz.

Also to add to my previous post than this...

They also wasted in Cap in Riikola, a player they most likely won't utilize properly 3yrs running. A player I am confident in (might be alone in this) producing what Matheson would if they would use him in the same way they plan to use Matheson.

It's great seeing the tandem of JR&MS has f***ed this team so royally.

Not alone! Best clapper on the team. If he got to a point where he felt comfortable on the PP, that would be such a weapon for us. The accuracy's just as good as the power. It's totally being under-utilized.
The problem so far I think has been that he's not great at finding shooting lanes. He kinda goes tunnel vision and just tees up at some shin pads. No composure.

So to use it, our PP would have to be way more fluid and dynamic than it was last year, to get the defense out of position to open those lanes. If they're static and predictable then it's pointless. Perhaps with injuries he may get a chance.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Looking at the 10 highest scoring teams last year, 8 of them stacked the top six. Seems to work just fine.

Our 3rd and 4th centers aren't good enough offensively to allocate skilled wingers to, at the expense of Sid and Geno.
We'll have 4 fringe NHL'ers in the forward group on opening night most likely. Our depth just isn't good enough to spread thin.

I just feel bad for McCann, who seems to be the odd man out. He's not gonna have much scoring help if Kapanen locks down his spot on L1.
Canner's skilled enough for top 6 duty. Think we haven't seen his best yet. 52 points in 98 games so far with us, largely in a bottom 6 role and without PP1 minutes.

But yeah, to summarize...
Health provided, the top 6 is definitely good enough to carry. I actually think Sid will be better than last year, since he was playing hurt all season. He's about to get the most help he's ever had in his career to start a season. And if Geno is 80% as good as he was in 2019-20, you got the makings of a very fearsome top 6 indeed.

The thing is, look at the 2 finalists.

Tampa won because their top 9 was stacked, hell for both teams, all 4 lines were solid. Dallas got there because of that depth, kids like Gurianov, Hintz, etc were all stepping up and they had depth while Seguin, Benn, and Radulov were also doing what they could. Both teams had depth, proper depth on Offense and Defense. Pens still can't figure out how they won (same way mind you) and keep steering further and further away from it and most of that is on JR and the way the team has been used (lack of chemistry in the bottom 6 at times) that's on the coach.

The Penguins are 100% just a top 6 team right now, the bottom 6, maybe 1/2 of that is useful in doing 1 thing good - Shutdown.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Not alone! Best clapper on the team. If he got to a point where he felt comfortable on the PP, that would be such a weapon for us. The accuracy's just as good as the power. It's totally being under-utilized.
The problem so far I think has been that he's not great at finding shooting lanes. He kinda goes tunnel vision and just tees up at some shin pads. No composure.

So to use it, our PP would have to be way more fluid and dynamic than it was last year, to get the defense out of position to open those lanes. If they're static and predictable then it's pointless. Perhaps with injuries he may get a chance.

I would have been ok losing Hornqvist (no not really, I miss you Horny) if the team had that cap space back in addition to buying out Johnson.

Taking a pick and a prospect, fine, I can live with that if their next move was say getting Hamonic for a 1-2yr deal at a decent cost to pair with Riikola on the 3rd pair, because now you have a solid defenseman in his own end, partnered with a kid that can bring that PMD ability on the 3rd pair, which is fine for cost as well because then you're rolling what they plan to roll anyway - Dumo/Tang & Petts/Marino.


All they've done is make this team expensively shitty.

 

[NMK11]

I just don't think we have the talent to spread the top six wingers out. If Bleuger could provide a little more offense himself or if there was just one more winger who was true third line talent I would consider it. But with the team the way it is it feels like you'd be diluting the top 6 at best a good possession third line.

Maybe instead of a getting a new shiny winger we just get a 2C and move Malkin to wing. Someone big who can play both ways. Preferably with a good pedigree.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The thing is, look at the 2 finalists.

Tampa won because their top 9 was stacked, hell for both teams, all 4 lines were solid. Dallas got there because of that depth, kids like Gurianov, Hintz, etc were all stepping up and they had depth while Seguin, Benn, and Radulov were also doing what they could. Both teams had depth, proper depth on Offense and Defense. Pens still can't figure out how they won (same way mind you) and keep steering further and further away from it and most of that is on JR and the way the team has been used (lack of chemistry in the bottom 6 at times) that's on the coach.

The Penguins are 100% just a top 6 team right now, the bottom 6, maybe 1/2 of that is useful in doing 1 thing good - Shutdown.

Dallas was so random in the playoffs
Suddenly they realized they could score. They were the 26th ranked offense in the regular season, and then they scored at the same clip as Vegas in the playoffs. What makes it really baffling is Seguin had 2 goals in 26 games. He was badly hurt. Hintz only 2 goals as well.

I guess it didn't hurt that Heiskanen went god mode, Klingberg was excellent and Pavelski went large as well. Then they got lucky with Kiviranta going ultra clutch. Benn and Radulov were good enough I guess, but far from special.

For me they are sort of an anomaly last year with the way they did it. Just like us in 2017. It's not like they got by through their renowned team defense either, since they were at 3.04 GA/GP. I could see them going far again next year if they get back to lockdown hockey though.

----------------------------------------------------------------

But getting back to the topic at hand, yeah we don't have the same balance as those big boys. Shouldn't disperse our lines as if we do.
But that's to be expected at this point. Even with our improved goaltending and coaching, I still don't see us as a potential Finalist. Just not hungry enough anymore.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dallas was so random in the playoffs
Suddenly they realized they could score. They were the 26th ranked offense in the regular season, and then they scored at the same clip as Vegas in the playoffs. What makes it really baffling is Seguin had 2 goals in 26 games. He was badly hurt. Hintz only 2 goals as well.

I guess it didn't hurt that Heiskanen went god mode, Klingberg was excellent and Pavelski went large as well. Then they got lucky with Kiviranta going ultra clutch. Benn and Radulov were good enough I guess, but far from special.

For me they are sort of an anomaly last year with the way they did it. Just like us in 2017. It's not like they got by through their renowned team defense either, since they were at 3.04 GA/GP. I could see them going far again next year if they get back to lockdown hockey though.

----------------------------------------------------------------

But getting back to the topic at hand, yeah we don't have the same balance as those big boys. Shouldn't disperse our lines as if we do.
But that's to be expected at this point. Even with our improved goaltending and coaching, I still don't see us as a potential Finalist. Just not hungry enough anymore.

Don't forget Gurianov, a bloke that gets what, 12-14min on average, but scores like 9 goals in the playoffs.

Rig had 5 goals and even that wanker Perry had 5 goals. The thing was, Dallas was getting depth scoring from all over, a great problem.