Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XLVI

[Gardner McKay]

And.... go.

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[TheBloodyNine]

#7 and #8.

The team that has #7 has a bad GM, a superstar who has never played a playoff game and is desperate to make the playoffs in general. Any player they get at 7 will not help them do that anytime soon.

The team that has #8 has a the best player in the world losing patience, their fans losing patience and are desperate to make the playoffs. Any player they get at 8 will not help them do that anytime soon.

The Rangers NEED to target one of these two picks. This is where Gorton has a chance to take advantage of two teams who need actual NHL players, not prospects, on their team to help them win ASAP.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

#7 and #8.

The team that has #7 has a bad GM, a superstar who has never played a playoff game and is desperate to make the playoffs in general. Any player they get at 7 will not help them do that anytime soon.

The team that has #8 has a the best player in the world losing patience, their fans losing patience and are desperate to make the playoffs. Any player they get at 8 will not help them do that anytime soon.

The Rangers NEED to target one of these two picks. This is where Gorton has a chance to take advantage of two teams who need actual NHL players, not prospects, on their team to help them win ASAP.

The problem is the only assets the Rangers may have to help them are Kreider on a 1 year deal, Skjei who probably isn’t worth either of those picks alone, and Zibanejad who they shouldn’t be trading

 

[Edge]

#7 and #8.

The team that has #7 has a bad GM, a superstar who has never played a playoff game and is desperate to make the playoffs in general. Any player they get at 7 will not help them do that anytime soon.

The team that has #8 has a the best player in the world losing patience, their fans losing patience and are desperate to make the playoffs. Any player they get at 8 will not help them do that anytime soon.

The Rangers NEED to target one of these two picks. This is where Gorton has a chance to take advantage of two teams who need actual NHL players, not prospects, on their team to help them win ASAP.

They could be on the table, but you've got to find a personnel match.

In Buffalo's case, they're looking at locking up Skinner with a long-term, high value contract. So I don't know if they would want to go down that path with Kreider, or bring him on as a rental.

Admittedly, they "should" have the centers they need, and a decent enough starting point on defense. Adding Kreider to Skinner gives them close to 70 goals on the wings to work with and an interesting offensive dynamic. But on the flip side, do they look more long-term and go with Skinner in the present and a guy like Caufield in the future? Do they hope there's some overlap there in the next several years?

I think the more attainable path might be those picks just outside the top 10. Get a few risers in there, watch a few guys drop, and then see if there's a team that feels that they can make some noise if they can get just enough distance from the rest of the pack and get into the playoffs.

 

[Edge]

The problem is the only assets the Rangers may have to help them are Kreider on a 1 year deal, Skjei who probably isn’t worth either of those picks alone, and Zibanejad who they shouldn’t be trading

If someone is giving up a high pick for Kreider, I'd assume they MUST have an extension in place. I don't see anyone trading a pick that high for a year of service right now.

Now, you move down a half-dozen or so slots and suddenly that extension might not quite be as big of a factor. For one, the acquiring team would be closely to the playoffs, and the pick wouldn't have as much inherent value. I also think in this scenario, the ability for the Rangers to retain is a hell of a sweetener for a team that then has the ability to add another contact on top of Kreider's for next season.

 

[Edge]

@GeorgeKaplan - "I remember during his draft year when he was really under the microscope, a lot of people loved his physical tools, but they began questioning if he could think the game well enough to reach his potential and I feel like that line of questioning hasn’t gone away and keeps dragging down his perceived ceiling the longer time goes on."

Carrying this over from the previous thread.

I agree, there's something there in the thought process that has been missing. He looks like he doesn't follow what's going on out there, or where he's supposed to be, or how to use his tools. And while he wouldn't have to match the hope/hype that once surrounded him, you'd have to hope he could at least put enough of the pieces together to be a decent support option. But it hasn't happened.​

 

[RGY]

Just to bring some more context to the conversation for those on the side of Tanking and/or arguing that is imperative we end up with another top pick...

Who is the Blues generational talent? Who is their top 3 pick?

Alex Pietrangelo the #4 pick from 2008? 11 years ago?

Its just to say that the game is different. There is not one blueprint to go off of.

We will end up with Kakko, or Hughes, and we can continue to ice a competitive team.

Just a different perspective to this ongoing debate.

 

[I Eat Crow]

A lot of going deep in the playoffs is health and luck. St. Louis and Boston are where they are because they played good hockey with their full complement of players.

Think Boston would have gotten past Toronto without Pastrnak and Bergeron? St. Louis past Dallas and San Jose without O'Reilly and Tarasenko? I'm not so sure.

Elite talent is needed for deep playoff runs, but they need to be healthy too.

The Rangers didn't win the Cup in 2014-15 because the whole defensive corps was playing injured and Zuccarello sustained a potentially career ending injury.

 

[thethirdhockeyman91]

Just to bring some more context to the conversation for those on the side of Tanking and/or arguing that is imperative we end up with another top pick...

Who is the Blues generational talent? Who is their top 3 pick?

Alex Pietrangelo the #4 pick from 2008? 11 years ago?

Its just to say that the game is different. There is not one blueprint to go off of.

We will end up with Kakko, or Hughes, and we can continue to ice a competitive team.

Just a different perspective to this ongoing debate.

Agree with this 100, people get way too obsessed with building through the draft only. Like half of the blues are players from trade and free agency

 

[Edge]

Just to bring some more context to the conversation for those on the side of Tanking and/or arguing that is imperative we end up with another top pick...

Who is the Blues generational talent? Who is their top 3 pick?

Alex Pietrangelo the #4 pick from 2008? 11 years ago?

Its just to say that the game is different. There is not one blueprint to go off of.

We will end up with Kakko, or Hughes, and we can continue to ice a competitive team.

Just a different perspective to this ongoing debate.

I think every year fans get caught up in "blue prints" or models to follow.

There isn't, never has been, and never will be one way to do things.

However, like most things in life, not all paths have the same odds of success and some approaches typically makes things a bit easier.

As for the Blues, you can make a decent argument that they're in that group of teams that has just enough elite or higher end talent to make it work --- Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, ROR, a goalie who is just good enough at the right time, etc. Essentially, the Rangers of 5 years ago, minus the devastating injuries and lack of a killer instinct.

But let's not also forget that this is a team that came within literal inches of being bounced by Dallas, so timing and matchups are also an important factor that often gets overlooked.

My argument in favor of high picks is that I think it gives you the best odds of being able to pull something off. I often compare it to the seat belt argument:

You could wear your belt, get into an accident, and die because you were trapped in your car. But the odds are better than going head first through your windshield. Just because the latter has some possibility for working in your favor, doesn't necessarily mean its the best bet to take.

 

[Edge]

Agree with this 100, people get way too obsessed with building through the draft only. Like half of the blues are players from trade and free agency

I think this is often a over-simplification that people who like to go heavy on the gas lean on. But I find it to mostly miss the point.

 

[Ola]

I don't agree with the take on Puljujärvi.

The assumption is that its something seriously wrong with him since he isn't performing. I've seen a lot of him, its not, and quite frankly, there are some pretty weird comments on him here (definitely makes you wonder if some even have seen him play?). All over the hockey world bigger players are struggling. Today's game is so much about speed, speed and then some more speed. As a result, the impact bigger players have is kind of digital, binary, if you get what I mean. Either they manage to get involved, and they can contribute, or they don't and they don't contribute much if at all. You can say that its the same with guys like Nolan Patrick or Dylan Strome too at different degrees. Ask Lucic if the game is different now than 5-10 years ago.

Pulju is 6'5 and was rushed to the NHL at 18. Even if he has high top speed, he has never been known as a having the fastest feet. He is no 20, and the last three years he has spent a ton of time on a 4th line in EDM. I am not at all surprised about the outcome.

Look at Laine this year, when he started to struggle, all production went away. Pulju is a higher maintenance player than Laine in the sense that he isn't the same shooting option that is easy to utilize. Pulju has very good instincts and hockey sense, and he has very strong raw abilities with a heavy shot, his reach, his step when he gets going etc. But the game has just been too fast for him, a kid like that must be sheltered into the pro game step by step so that he can grow into it. Writing that is kind of like 'ehh duh, of course it is, who would ever state something else'? Then you look at EDM and how they have developed him, lol, its the complete opposite. Its really beyond dumb.

It could certainly be too late to rescue him, time will tell if he can get out of there. But its just another reminder that the game have changed, the time were "top picks" were different and so dominant that they could thrive no matter what is long gone. The marginals are smaller, and if you screw a kid the results will be accordingly. I am extremely far from sold on that like Laine would have been a hit in EDM either. McDavid isn't the set-up type who thrives with that shooter, he is about darting in and out of holes. A poor EDM team, a sluggish looking Laine on a 2nd/3rd/4th line, confidence starts to go down, really incompetent management etc around you.

The situation is what it is, I don't think Pulju makes much sense for us at the state this organization is in now. We got Kravy and Kakko that should get the (little?) support we can provide young offensively gifted kids.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

@GeorgeKaplan - "I remember during his draft year when he was really under the microscope, a lot of people loved his physical tools, but they began questioning if he could think the game well enough to reach his potential and I feel like that line of questioning hasn’t gone away and keeps dragging down his perceived ceiling the longer time goes on."

Carrying this over from the previous thread.

I agree, there's something there in the thought process that has been missing. He looks like he doesn't follow what's going on out there, or where he's supposed to be, or how to use his tools. And while he wouldn't have to match the hope/hype that once surrounded him, you'd have to hope he could at least put enough of the pieces together to be a decent support option. But it hasn't happened.​

I saw an Oilers game either earlier this season or last season, it was a weekend matinee (and probably the only reason I watched it) and he was all over the ice making plays happen and I think he ended up scoring or assisting on the tying goal and I thought ‘wow, this guy’s finally figuring it all out, good for him’ and every time I’ve seen him since then, it’s looked like he has absolutely no idea where he is

 

[Edge]

I saw an Oilers game either earlier this season or last season, it was a weekend matinee (and probably the only reason I watched it) and he was all over the ice making plays happen and I think he ended up scoring or assisting on the tying goal and I thought ‘wow, this guy’s finally figuring it all out, good for him’ and every time I’ve seen him since then, it’s looked like he has absolutely no idea where he is

And that's the weird thing when you watch him. I don't see a speed problem. I don't see a skills problem. I see someone who looks like he has having a hell of a time consistently trying to figure out what he's seeing out there on the ice. Or maybe a better way to say it is that he looks like he is struggling to translate what he's seeing into an action or reaction that makes sense.

 

[Trxjw]

I maintain that unless the Rangers are willing to part with one of their younger assets they don't have the ammo to trade directly into the top-10. Not unless Kreider is willing to sign an extension with his new club. They're probably going to have to deal into the teens and then maybe find a partner who is looking to trade back.

Ideally that trade is done before the draft starts and the Rangers have the opportunity to talk with those teams before names start coming off the board. However, I get the feeling that we'll be looking at a situation where a team watches their prized names go off the board and circles back to Kreider. Say if Arizona or Colorado want Knight but he goes to Flordia at 13. Then maybe they pick up the phone and call Gorton to pull the trigger on a Kreider deal.

 

[Edge]

I maintain that unless the Rangers are willing to part with one of their younger assets they don't have the ammo to trade directly into the top-10. Not unless Kreider is willing to sign an extension with his new club. They're probably going to have to deal into the teens and then maybe find a partner who is looking to trade back.

Ideally that trade is done before the draft starts and the Rangers have the opportunity to talk with those teams before names start coming off the board. However, I get the feeling that we'll be looking at a situation where a team watches their prized names go off the board and circles back to Kreider. Say if Arizona or Colorado want Knight but he goes to Flordia at 13. Then maybe they pick up the phone and call Gorton to pull the trigger on a Kreider deal.

I think the range just outside the top 10 is where people should be keeping an eye on. I also think the Rangers are keenly interested to see who slides and are trying to determine which players have the highest odds of being "the odd man" out. They want a guy they would've taken in the top 10, but if they can avoid having to get into the top 10, they'll gladly take that.

 

[DutchShamrock]

I think every year fans get caught up in "blue prints" or models to follow.

There isn't, never has been, and never will be one way to do things.

However, like most things in life, not all paths have the same odds of success and some approaches typically makes things a bit easier.

As for the Blues, you can make a decent argument that they're in that group of teams that has just enough elite or higher end talent to make it work --- Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, ROR, a goalie who is just good enough at the right time, etc. Essentially, the Rangers of 5 years ago, minus the devastating injuries and lack of a killer instinct.

But let's not also forget that this is a team that came within literal inches of being bounced by Dallas, so timing and matchups are also an important factor that often gets overlooked.

My argument in favor of high picks is that I think it gives you the best odds of being able to pull something off. I often compare it to the seat belt argument:

You could wear your belt, get into an accident, and die because you were trapped in your car. But the odds are better than going head first through your windshield. Just because the latter has some possibility for working in your favor, doesn't necessarily mean its the best bet to take.

Yeah, it's about getting those elite players. Not necessarily by mimicking their methods. Otherwise, we should be talking about ROR and how STL acquired his contract. He was basically radioactive on HF last year. His 5 years was an albatross. Dude is a beast though.

They traded for Schenn. They traded away Oshie and Shattenkirk without really replacing them with significant pieces.

Based on the plans around here, this would be riot worthy. No one wants to pay the price of a significant trade, even though a lot of cup winners added a core piece or two with a hefty trade. No one wants to take a hit on a trading a good player, even though it opened cap and opportunity.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Agree with this 100, people get way too obsessed with building through the draft only. Like half of the blues are players from trade and free agency

Well trade yeah, but their big UFA signing on that team is Bozak, who is their 3rd line center.

But here are the home grown Blues...

-Pietrangelo
-Parayko
-Schwartz
-Tarasenko
-Steen
-Barbashev
-Binnington
-Dunn
- Perron kind of, he came back as a UFA but he was originally a blue.
- Thomas
- Blais
- Edmunson

Guys they traded for

- O'Reilly
- Schenn
- Gunnarson
- Bouwmeester
- Bortuzzo (They lost this trade too, Cole is way better than this dope.)
- Sundqvist
- Sanford (who they added in the Shattenkirk trade, which was made while the team was still in playoff position, so this wasn't an "add to win" move.)


Guys they signed

- Bozak
- Maroon
- Perron

The core of that team was very much built through the draft, they then used assets they had accumulated over the years to fill in the gaps with quality bodies where they had holes (down the middle.) The large majority of the guys they added via trade or UFA are middle/bottom pairing D and bottom 6 forwards.

You need to build your foundation through the draft, and history would show that you don't help build that foundation by signing expensive free agents before you know what you have internally (Yes I know, Boston did it but they gambled and got lucky, Minnesota gambled and lost.) I know one little eensy weensy FA signing doesn't seem like it shifts the tide all that much, but it does.

 

[Off Sides]

I'll move this convo here since it's not on topic in the other thread.

I am with you. But, and this is just putting myself in Rangers management shoes, there is a path to Panarin. But that is one that requires a lot of moving pieces. And some we do not not know until draft day how they will unfold.

I just can't imagine them thinking the 2019 drafted players and Panarin fit together, he is 9-10 years older than they are and always will be.

If they think the #2 pick will hit his NHL prime by age 23, it means Panarin will be at the age 33 where it's kind of expected he would be leaving his prime.

So the thinking must be that either

The prospects are going to hit their primes earlier, which seems like a dubious idea given what we saw from past players and what we saw out of their rookies from last season.

Or

Panarin will stay in his prime longer, again a dubious idea based on what we have seen play out over the years on the Rangers and league wide.

All the same this is a rehash of what we often talk about.

 

[True Blue]

All the same this is a rehash of what we often talk about.

Exactly. Until the draft, there is only so many more times that we can keep beating the proverbial dead horse.

 

[Trxjw]

I think the range just outside the top 10 is where people should be keeping an eye on. I also think the Rangers are keenly interested to see who slides and are trying to determine which players have the highest odds of being "the odd man" out. They want a guy they would've taken in the top 10, but if they can avoid having to get into the top 10, they'll gladly take that.

Agreed. For me it's the Arizona pick in particular. They're in the market for scoring and obviously they've come up as a connection to Kessel. Maybe Kreider becomes their back up option, or perhaps there's a way the Rangers can facilitate that deal for Pittsburgh and Arizona.

At 14 you're close enough to catch the guy sliding down the board, but you're also high enough that if you need to jump up 3 or 4 spots the cost isn't completely prohibitive. So if you're looking at Zegras or Krebs, or any of your top 7 or 8, about to slide to Vancouver, you can offer them 14 and 49 and hopefully get your guy. That's very hard to do from 16 let alone 20.

 

[NYR94]

Steen was a trade acquisition. Traded with Colaiacovo by Toronto for Stempniak, but your point remains that St. Louis built a lot of their team through good drafting.

 

[bobbop]

Puljujavri needs a change of scenery. I’m willing to have the Rangers offer that change at a modest price. No more, no less. This shouldn’t be seen as anything more than a flyer with upside.

 

[TheTakedown]

A lot of going deep in the playoffs is health and luck. St. Louis and Boston are where they are because they played good hockey with their full complement of players.

Think Boston would have gotten past Toronto without Pastrnak and Bergeron? St. Louis past Dallas and San Jose without O'Reilly and Tarasenko? I'm not so sure.

Elite talent is needed for deep playoff runs, but they need to be healthy too.

The Rangers didn't win the Cup in 2014-15 because the whole defensive corps was playing injured and Zuccarello sustained a potentially career ending injury.

Could have just dropped in Stempniak that year but NOOO lets trade him for spare russian parts that will never play a game

 

[Charlie Conway]

Let's change one beaten horse for another.

Who are the vets you target? I want one or two insurance options so no one is forced into something they're not ready for. That's one of the fastest ways to bungle the rebuild.

Williams would definitely be one of my picks. If we can get him on a one-year deal, he's the type of vet who has been through it all.

Is Brett Connolly getting paid big money? If we can get him for a modest contract, he'd be a solid pickup.

Tanev? Dzingel?