Ron Francis

[Ogopogo*]

That argument is especially unfair for those who play in the 30-team NHL. It was easier to be among the top five centers in a league with only 12 or 21 teams.

???????????

How so? How does it become easier to be one of the 5 best centers in the NHL by adding 180 AHL calibre players into the league? It's not a lottery.

 

[MS]

My argument on Francis is this, if we're discussing whether he's a top-50 or top-60 player of all-time, as some here are claiming :

Top-50 are pretty much the cream of the players who have ever played the game. All of these guys are players who were franchise players/superstars/top-10 players on the planet for a period of 10+ years. You have to be pretty freaking unreal to make this list.

Francis' Hartford years are really meaningless as far as this discussion is concerned, or close to it. Ron Francis in the 1980s with Hartford = Brad Richards in the 2000s with Tampa Bay (minus the Conn Smythe). A 'good' two-way #1 center who had a few 50-assist/90 point seasons but was never top-10 in scoring and hadn't developed his later-career defensive prowess. An all-star but not a superstar, and not all that relevant to this discussion.

Likewise, the same can be said for his later years in Carolina - still a fine two-way center, but again not a top-20 player in the league past 1998.

So the question is whether his 5 years in Pittsburgh where he put up ridiculous assist numbers and played a great two-way game are enough to elevate him from a guy who clearly isn't a top-120 player on the balance of the rest of his career into a top-50 type talent. And to me, it's clear as day that it isn't.

Francis could've been 10 spots higher and ahead of guys like Gilbert Perreault and Johnny Bucyk. No argument there, but these sorts of players are all so close it's very hard to separate them. So yes, he may be 'slightly' under-rated on that list, but it's pretty close.

30 or 40 spots higher he'd stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[seventieslord]

That argument is especially unfair for those who play in the 30-team NHL. It was easier to be among the top five centers in a league with only 12 or 21 teams.

If the league that Francis wasn't a top-5 center in, suddenly shrunk to six teams, or 12, or 21, would he become a top-5 center in that league?

 

[Big Phil]

I like Francis, but to put him in the top 50 in generous. I can remember doing a thread about Francis vs. Ratelle and finding that the opinions in that thread made both players very similar. So think of it that way. Jean Ratelle career wise was probably right at the same level. The only problem with Francis is when Canada came calling for the Canada Cups/Olympics he didnt get there. '87 he wasnt there. '91 he wasnt there. '96 he was named but was injured and '98 he didnt get in either.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Average skater, at best. Not much of a shot. Not strong. Not physical.

Only Gretz has more assists. Only Gretz, Messier and Gordie more points.

Truly remarkable.

Top 50, no. Top 100, for sure.

And he could always play defense, not just later in his career as someone stated. He came straight out of junior and played on a line with Blaine Stoughton. That's pretty much like being shorthanded defensively at all times. Great hands, tremendous vision and pure hockey sense. As a Whaler's season ticket holder for Francis' entire career in Hartford, I feel very lucky to have been able to watch his play for all those years.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

In judging a player's all time worth I think it's important to look at how he was judged at the time (all-star recognition, trophy balloting, and placing in the end of the year scoring leaders). It's easy to look at Ron Francis' all-time regular season statisics (which speak more to his longevity) and proclaim him as one of the best ever.

For me however, to be judged as one of the best ever, you must ask yourself, this question, was Ron Francis ever an elite player, and was he ever viewed as one when he played.

In the course of researching something else I came across this little tidbit. At the time of his trade to the Penguins in 1991, the Hockey News speculated that Hartford may have gotten the better of the trade. Now we all know that they didn't, but that gives you an idea of how Francis was viewed at the time. Nowhere in the article is he mentioned as one of the league's best centers.

Interestingly enough he only played in the All-Star game four times in his career, and three of those were during his stint with the Whalers, and only one came with the Penguins - in 1996.

In the posts I've seen him compared to others who played during the same time (Sakic, Yzerman, etc..). Clearly he's lacking in award recognition, so what other indicators do we have to "prove" his elite status during his career?

Now when speaking of a players as the best ever, I think it's important to look beyond the regular season points and take a look at the playoff record, since for me that is where true greatness is confirmed.

Taking that into consideration, I thought it might be interesting to look at Francis' playoff point totals when compared to some of his contemporaries, since many of his supporters bring up his regular season career point totals as proof of his greatness.

Joe Sakic - playoff games - 172 /playoff points - 188
Doug Gilmour - playoff games - 182 /playoff points - 188
Steve Yzerman - playoff games - 196 /playoff points - 185
Denis Savard - playoff games - 169 /playoff points - 175
Sergei Federov - playoff games - 169 /playoff points - 168
Ron Francis - playoff games - 171 /playoff points - 143

 

[Big Phil]

In judging a player's all time worth I think it's important to look at how he was judged at the time (all-star recognition, trophy balloting, and placing in the end of the year scoring leaders). It's easy to look at Ron Francis' all-time regular season statisics (which speak more to his longevity) and proclaim him as one of the best ever.

For me however, to be judged as one of the best ever, you must ask yourself, this question, was Ron Francis ever an elite player, and was he ever viewed as one when he played.

In the course of researching something else I came across this little tidbit. At the time of his trade to the Penguins in 1991, the Hockey News speculated that Hartford may have gotten the better of the trade. Now we all know that they didn't, but that gives you an idea of how Francis was viewed at the time. Nowhere in the article is he mentioned as one of the league's best centers.

Interestingly enough he only played in the All-Star game four times in his career, and three of those were during his stint with the Whalers, and only one came with the Penguins - in 1996.

In the posts I've seen him compared to others who played during the same time (Sakic, Yzerman, etc..). Clearly he's lacking in award recognition, so what other indicators do we have to "prove" his elite status during his career?

Now when speaking of a players as the best ever, I think it's important to look beyond the regular season points and take a look at the playoff record, since for me that is where true greatness is confirmed.

Taking that into consideration, I thought it might be interesting to look at Francis' playoff point totals when compared to some of his contemporaries, since many of his supporters bring up his regular season career point totals as proof of his greatness.

Joe Sakic - playoff games - 172 /playoff points - 188
Doug Gilmour - playoff games - 182 /playoff points - 188
Steve Yzerman - playoff games - 196 /playoff points - 185
Denis Savard - playoff games - 169 /playoff points - 175
Sergei Federov - playoff games - 169 /playoff points - 168
Ron Francis - playoff games - 171 /playoff points - 143

Good post. I think that speaks volumes on how underrated Francis was earlier in his career. But we have kind of gone the opposite way in thinking that we tend to overrate him over his career. The truth is, he was a very good player his whole career sprinkled with two Cup wins and a couple great seasons. Not a bad commentary on his career. He proved he could lead a weak team to the finals (2002) and he was the face of the Whalers for 10 years. The idea that he only put up big points when he hit Pittsburgh would be absurd considering he had 101 in '89-90.

We just cant call him among the greatest scorers of all time though. But he still had a few seasons where he was either elite or very close to it. Here are his best scoring seasons in relation to the rest of the league.

'86-87 - 11th
'89-90 - 13th
'94-95 - 5th
'95-96 - 4th
'96-97 - 9th
'97-98 - 7th
'01-02 - 10th

Not too bad. But overrated to call him one of the best ever, yet underrated to call him not a Hall of Famer.