Roman Josi quietly having another Norris caliber season

[SeanMoneyHands]

He's certainly doing enough to push himself into the first ballot HOFer tier. One of the best defensemen in the league all around and has been for awhile.

Oh, and he makes up one end of perhaps the best looking husband/wife pair in the league on a somewhat unrelated note.

Josi is one of the best looking players in the NHL now that Henrik Lundqvist is retired. He may even be the best looking.

 

[GreenHornet]

Not so sure it's that quietly at this point. Dude's been insane the whole season, especially the last two months.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

He’d be my choice for runner up for sure.
I thought he deserved the Norris the year he was runner up to Makar although both would have been worthy winners.

 

[LCPreds]

I do wonder why Josi is considered runner up and it’s not more neck and neck with Hughes/Makar. Because of points? It’s interesting that a year he lost to Makar he had more points but worse defensive metrics. In a year he’ll likely lose again he has fewer points but better defensive metrics than Hughes.

To me this should actually be Josi/Makar fighting for 1 with Hughes 3. And the rationale behind that is Josi and Makar both drive offense similar to Hughes but seem to be vastly superior defensively. Josi has almost double the hits and triple the blocked shots vs Hughes. Makar is similar. Josi also plays on an objectively worse team than Hughes if you look at it across the entire season.

But this isn’t really new with awards, it’s all just opinion based and opinions will vary. This was likely already decided at the break anyway, even if Josi or Makar somehow catch Hughes in total points.

 

[SwissFan12]

Also, Josi is actually half-decent defensively.

Dumb narrative that comes from his 96 points season. He is very good defensively.

 

[HolyHagelin]

He's certainly doing enough to push himself into the first ballot HOFer tier. One of the best defensemen in the league all around and has been for awhile.

Oh, and he makes up one end of perhaps the best looking husband/wife pair in the league on a somewhat unrelated note.

The Wennbergs would like a word with you

It is incredible that this guy goes as under the radar as he does. Two seasons ago he put up 96 points in 80 games (23 goals) and there was no real talk of him doing anything significant or being a Norris favourite, just a decent competitor to Makar who had 10 less points in 3 less games.

Last year Karlsson scored 101 points in 82 games (25 goals), won the Norris in a year where basically any and all talk of defensemen started and ended with his name, and you would have thought Bobby Orr had come out of retirement with all of the media circus surrounding it.

And karlsson was actually dogshit all year

 

[HolyHagelin]

I do wonder why Josi is considered runner up and it’s not more neck and neck with Hughes/Makar. Because of points? It’s interesting that a year he lost to Makar he had more points but worse defensive metrics. In a year he’ll likely lose again he has fewer points but better defensive metrics than Hughes.

To me this should actually be Josi/Makar fighting for 1 with Hughes 3. And the rationale behind that is Josi and Makar both drive offense similar to Hughes but seem to be vastly superior defensively. Josi has almost double the hits and triple the blocked shots vs Hughes. Makar is similar. Josi also plays on an objectively worse team than Hughes if you look at it across the entire season.

But this isn’t really new with awards, it’s all just opinion based and opinions will vary. This was likely already decided at the break anyway, even if Josi or Makar somehow catch Hughes in total points.

Makar has had a terrible year defensively, his third straight year of significant decline in this area. He absolutely should not be a Norris finalist this year.

 

[Marshall]

At least he's not burning people's homes down.

 

[LCPreds]

Makar has had a terrible year defensively, his third straight year of significant decline in this area. He absolutely should not be a Norris finalist this year.

Just to be clear, I'm speaking relatively between the 3. Not saying that any of the 3 are top end on the actual defensive side.

 

[HolyHagelin]

Just to be clear, I'm speaking relatively between the 3. Not saying that any of the 3 are top end on the actual defensive side.

Fair, however I categorically reject the idea that makar should even be in this convo. Looking at his numbers, the team gets caved when he is out there unless mackinnon is out there with him.

 

[LemonSauceD]

I do wonder why Josi is considered runner up and it’s not more neck and neck with Hughes/Makar. Because of points? It’s interesting that a year he lost to Makar he had more points but worse defensive metrics. In a year he’ll likely lose again he has fewer points but better defensive metrics than Hughes.

To me this should actually be Josi/Makar fighting for 1 with Hughes 3. And the rationale behind that is Josi and Makar both drive offense similar to Hughes but seem to be vastly superior defensively. Josi has almost double the hits and triple the blocked shots vs Hughes. Makar is similar. Josi also plays on an objectively worse team than Hughes if you look at it across the entire season.

But this isn’t really new with awards, it’s all just opinion based and opinions will vary. This was likely already decided at the break anyway, even if Josi or Makar somehow catch Hughes in total points.

Makar’s defensive metrics are worse than Hughes this season. Makar’s metrics are brutal without Mackinnon on the ice.

Hughes has been dominant this season, especially 5 on 5.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

One of my favorite players in the league , absolute stud

 

[Chips]

It is incredible that this guy goes as under the radar as he does. Two seasons ago he put up 96 points in 80 games (23 goals) and there was no real talk of him doing anything significant or being a Norris favourite, just a decent competitor to Makar who had 10 less points in 3 less games.

Last year Karlsson scored 101 points in 82 games (25 goals), won the Norris in a year where basically any and all talk of defensemen started and ended with his name, and you would have thought Bobby Orr had come out of retirement with all of the media circus surrounding it.

No real talk about the Norris a couple seasons ago? I remember tons of people talking in the lead up, and a ton of whining about it al summer


Karlsson won last year because of the points but also the competition was scant. Makar secured a ton of votes despite missing so much time and probably could have won it with more games


Josi losing the Norris a couple years ago should have stopped the “it’s just points” complaints. Makar was better defensively that year


Actually really similar to the year Josi won the Norris, when John Carlson had more points but Josi was seen as better defensively lol

 

[LCPreds]

Fair, however I categorically reject the idea that makar should even be in this convo. Looking at his numbers, the team gets caved when he is out there unless mackinnon is out there with him.

I get it. And another thing I will readily admit, I'm still trying to find some good set of stats to try to compare these 3 on the d side outside of +/-, Hits, Blocked Shots. Hughes has better +/- but far behind Josi in the other two. There is definitely plenty of homerism in my take, and some long term bitterness over only ever having 1 Norris win total between the several years of superior play by Weber and Josi.

To be fair though, simply scrolling stats on Moneypuck, it's actually amazing how close Josi and Hughes are in most categories. So it kind of comes down to how much one values total points (this year!) vs. everything else. Josi has 8 fewer points but more 6 goals and seems more active on the defensive end.

 

[Perratrooper]

I do wonder why Josi is considered runner up and it’s not more neck and neck with Hughes/Makar. Because of points? It’s interesting that a year he lost to Makar he had more points but worse defensive metrics. In a year he’ll likely lose again he has fewer points but better defensive metrics than Hughes.

To me this should actually be Josi/Makar fighting for 1 with Hughes 3. And the rationale behind that is Josi and Makar both drive offense similar to Hughes but seem to be vastly superior defensively. Josi has almost double the hits and triple the blocked shots vs Hughes. Makar is similar. Josi also plays on an objectively worse team than Hughes if you look at it across the entire season.

But this isn’t really new with awards, it’s all just opinion based and opinions will vary. This was likely already decided at the break anyway, even if Josi or Makar somehow catch Hughes in total points.

Totally agree with you, it’s unfortunate that there appears to be no consistency in how voting is completed in these awards. I haven’t looked at defensive metrics, however if they are actually performing that much better than Hughes defensively while putting up similar points I would think they would be the front runners.

As a Colorado fan a similar thing has happened to MacKinnon in the years in 2017-18 he lost to Hall because Hall was more of a one man show and MacKinnon had teammates close to him in scoring. Then in 2019-20 he lost to Draisaital, despite MacKinnon having 43 more points than his next closest teammate while also missing 13 games. Conversely Drai had 13 more points than McDavid that year.

On the bright side, at least Josi has won one.

 

[beardawg]

Never forget that Josi was Norris runner up to Makar in 2022 despite having *more* 1st place votes. Voting panel kind of lost all credibility after that in my mind

 

[LCPreds]

Makar’s defensive metrics are worse than Hughes this season. Makar’s metrics are brutal without Mackinnon on the ice.

Hughes has been dominant this season, especially 5 on 5.

Can you educate me on the bolded part? I'm having trouble finding a stat that supports it and honestly don't watch much Vancouver hockey. It doesn't seem like Hughes really uses his body at all so just curious what he does that shuts down the opposition that might not show up on a stat sheet.

 

[HolyHagelin]

I get it. And another thing I will readily admit, I'm still trying to find some good set of stats to try to compare these 3 on the d side outside of +/-, Hits, Blocked Shots. Hughes has better +/- but far behind Josi in the other two. There is definitely plenty of homerism in my take, and some long term bitterness over only ever having 1 Norris win total between the several years of superior play by Weber and Josi.

To be fair though, simply scrolling stats on Moneypuck, it's actually amazing how close Josi and Hughes are in most categories. So it kind of comes down to how much one values total points (this year!) vs. everything else. Josi has 8 fewer points but more 6 goals and seems more active on the defensive end.

Corsi, corsirel, fenwick, ffrel, xg%, relxg% hdcf% relhdcf%

Those are good places to start and are easy to find. To get good “with or without you” (WOWY) numbers beyond that you need to follow the right twitter accounts or have paid subscriptions to places like natural stat trick or money puck or evolving hockey

Can you educate me on the bolded part? I'm having trouble finding a stat that supports it and honestly don't watch much Vancouver hockey. It doesn't seem like Hughes really uses his body at all so just curious what he does that shuts down the opposition that might not show up on a stat sheet.

Hughes has about the best relcor% in the game, this means that when he is on the ice he has a greater positive impact on his team’s share of shot attempts than any other player. Assuming pdo if 100, more shots=victory.

Edit to add - since it seems like you are not fluent in fancystats, pdo is just a combination of on ice shot% + sv%, so league average is always 100

 

[Voight]

Never forget that Josi was Norris runner up to Makar in 2022 despite having *more* 1st place votes. Voting panel kind of lost all credibility after that in my mind

Doughty had more first place votes than Karlsson in 2015. It happens.

 

[LCPreds]

Corsi, corsirel, fenwick, ffrel, xg%, relxg% hdcf% relhdcf%

Those are good places to start and are easy to find. To get good “with or without you” (WOWY) numbers beyond that you need to follow the right twitter accounts or have paid subscriptions to places like natural stat trick or money puck or evolving hockey


Hughes has about the best relcor% in the game, this means that when he is on the ice he has a greater positive impact on his team’s share of shot attempts than any other player. Assuming pdo if 100, more shots=victory.

Edit to add - since it seems like you are not fluent in fancystats, pdo is just a combination of on ice shot% + sv%, so league average is always 100

Yeah I did find corsi and fenwick and am familiar with those. Both were very even for Josi and Hughes. Kind of what I was getting at with the money puck comment in that a lot of the areas where one is blue the other is as well. It's really very close. Thanks for sharing the relcor%, I'm going to look into that one now.

I did pull out some other much simpler numbers for comparison. Josi also has more primary assists.

	Goals	Primary	Secondary	Points
Josi	19	33	21	73
Hughes	13	30	38	81
Makar	18	26	34	78

 

[Jared Dunn]

I get it. And another thing I will readily admit, I'm still trying to find some good set of stats to try to compare these 3 on the d side outside of +/-, Hits, Blocked Shots. Hughes has better +/- but far behind Josi in the other two. There is definitely plenty of homerism in my take, and some long term bitterness over only ever having 1 Norris win total between the several years of superior play by Weber and Josi.

To be fair though, simply scrolling stats on Moneypuck, it's actually amazing how close Josi and Hughes are in most categories. So it kind of comes down to how much one values total points (this year!) vs. everything else. Josi has 8 fewer points but more 6 goals and seems more active on the defensive end.

Pretty dated and non helpful stats for measuring defensive impact tbh. High number of blocked shots are often just the guys who suck at handling the puck and can't get it out of their zone, and +/- is really only worth mentioning if there's an aberration from the rest of the team

 

[LemonSauceD]

.

To be fair though, simply scrolling stats on Moneypuck, it's actually amazing how close Josi and Hughes are in most categories. So it kind of comes down to how much one values total points (this year!) vs. everything else. Josi has 8 fewer points but more 6 goals and seems more active on the defensive end.

Josi actually is among the lowest in defensive zone starts in the league.

 

[Buck Naked]

I do wonder why Josi is considered runner up and it’s not more neck and neck with Hughes/Makar. Because of points? It’s interesting that a year he lost to Makar he had more points but worse defensive metrics. In a year he’ll likely lose again he has fewer points but better defensive metrics than Hughes.

To me this should actually be Josi/Makar fighting for 1 with Hughes 3. And the rationale behind that is Josi and Makar both drive offense similar to Hughes but seem to be vastly superior defensively. Josi has almost double the hits and triple the blocked shots vs Hughes. Makar is similar. Josi also plays on an objectively worse team than Hughes if you look at it across the entire season.

But this isn’t really new with awards, it’s all just opinion based and opinions will vary. This was likely already decided at the break anyway, even if Josi or Makar somehow catch Hughes in total points.

This is a very uninformed post. Especially the bolded part.

 

[HolyHagelin]

This is a very uninformed post. Especially the bolded part.

The person you quoted (seems) genuinely interested in expanding their understanding, and finding new ways to put the game in context. I have been fooled before on the internet, but I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Never forget that Josi was Norris runner up to Makar in 2022 despite having *more* 1st place votes. Voting panel kind of lost all credibility after that in my mind

This.