Roenick and the HHOF

minion

Registered User
Oct 6, 2008
938
0
Lincoln NE
Don't go calling my standars low when you want Mogilny in the hall.

I'm going out on a limb. I personally don't have an issue with AlMo in the hall.

First I think what he did off the ice should be looked at. He was the first Soviet player to defect. First Euro to score 76 goals and lead the league in goals (along with Selanne), first Euro to be a team captain... he has a number of firsts there.

He's won a Stanley Cup, a gold medal and a World championship medal.

Certainly there are other players who may have better stats and all, but when you consider AlMo's on and off ice accomplishments, I think he deserves a spot in the hall.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
I'm going out on a limb. I personally don't have an issue with AlMo in the hall.

First I think what he did off the ice should be looked at. He was the first Soviet player to defect. First Euro to score 76 goals and lead the league in goals (along with Selanne), first Euro to be a team captain... he has a number of firsts there.

He's won a Stanley Cup, a gold medal and a World championship medal.

Certainly there are other players who may have better stats and all, but when you consider AlMo's on and off ice accomplishments, I think he deserves a spot in the hall.

I was always a definite "no" for Mogilny, but you are right about his historical significance. First Euro to defect, and he did it as a star player at that. It is the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Best Players or Hall of Best Careers, so that is pretty significant.

Based strictly on his on-ice play, I'd say no. Too inconsistant and too soft in the playoffs. He was nothing more than a secondary player when he won the Cup - there were at least 9 Devils who were more important in that victory (the top line, the top 4 dmen, Brodeur, and Holik).

And finally, Bure isn't in yet, and Bure had a more accomplished NHL career by a good margin, mostly due to Almo's inconsistancy.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
First Defections

I was always a definite "no" for Mogilny, but you are right about his historical significance. First Euro to defect, and he did it as a star player at that. It is the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Best Players or Hall of Best Careers, so that is pretty significant.

Based strictly on his on-ice play, I'd say no. Too inconsistant and too soft in the playoffs. He was nothing more than a secondary player when he won the Cup - there were at least 9 Devils who were more important in that victory (the top line, the top 4 dmen, Brodeur, and Holik).

And finally, Bure isn't in yet, and Bure had a more accomplished NHL career by a good margin, mostly due to Almo's inconsistancy.

First Euro to defect - try Vaclav Nedomansky in 1974 or the Stastny
Brothers circa 1980. There were others.

Also Alex Mogilny was never the same after a severely broken leg suffered in the 1993 playoffs against Montreal.
 
Last edited:

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
First Euro to defect - try Vaclav Nedomansky in 1974 or the Stastny
Brothers circa 1980. There were others.

Also Alex Mogilny was never the same after a severely broken leg suffered in the 1993 playoffs against Montreal.

Right, oops, I was just re-writing what he said. I (and I assume he) obviously meant first Soviet to defect, which is still a big deal.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,728
84,760
Vancouver, BC
Roenick's HHOF claim would be a fair bit better if he hadn't missed the 1996 US World Cup triumph through injury. When one of your biggest positives is 'important in the development of US hockey' but you miss the most important event in US hockey in the past 25 years, that hurts.

Compare the international resume of Roenick vs. Modano:

Roenick - 3 major international tourneys (1 Canada Cup, 2 Olympics)
Modano - 6 major international tourneys (3 Canada/World Cups, 3 Olympics)

Roenick - 12 points in major international tournaments for the US
Modano - 31 points in major international tournaments for the US

Big reason why Modano will be going to the HHOF but Roenick probably won't.
 

Fish on The Sand

Untouchable
Feb 28, 2002
60,248
1,949
Canada
When a player is voted MVP by the media who cover the game on a daily basis or when a player wins the trophy for the most outstanding player as voted by his peers who play against him every night, I tend to trust their judgment. Thats just me though.

one year is not enough to define somebody as the best player in the game though. That is my point. It was a pretty obvious point too, so I must conclude you fail at grasping the obvious. The fact that Sakic only time came even close to a Hart Trophy (the year he won) means he was not the best player in the game. Players who were consistently winners or consistently in contention were the best players in the game.
 

NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS

Registered User
Feb 28, 2006
13,542
5,771
one year is not enough to define somebody as the best player in the game though. That is my point. It was a pretty obvious point too, so I must conclude you fail at grasping the obvious. The fact that Sakic only time came even close to a Hart Trophy (the year he won) means he was not the best player in the game. Players who were consistently winners or consistently in contention were the best players in the game.

Your point is wrong.

Sakic was considered the best in the game during 2001 that means he was considered the best at one point.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,355
one year is not enough to define somebody as the best player in the game though. That is my point. It was a pretty obvious point too, so I must conclude you fail at grasping the obvious. The fact that Sakic only time came even close to a Hart Trophy (the year he won) means he was not the best player in the game. Players who were consistently winners or consistently in contention were the best players in the game.

I do see what you are saying, and it certainly applies to a case like Theodore or even Martin St. Louis. But Sakic was considered amongst the very best in the game for several years before and after that Hart, it was hardly a lightning in a bottle scenario. Who else would you have called the best in 2001? Lemieux I guess, but he only played half a season. Jagr or Hasek? It's arguable, but the list probably ends there. If you were to tell all the GMs in the league that they could have one player, I bet many of them would have chosen Sakic circa 2001. None would have chosen Theodore or St. Louis during their Hart campaigns if given the same question.


Back on topic, I think JR falls short. Probably in the category of teammate Steve Larmer. Wouldn't be a downright lousy selection, but in the end it isn't necessary.

I rank Modano ahead of Roenick, and I would take Roenick over Sundin. Modano has been the face of a successful franchise for two decades, and was generally considered the best player during Dallas' Stanley Cup era as a whole (even though Nieuwendyk got the Smythe in '99). Definitely a game-changer during his heyday ten years ago.

Roenick was that player in Chicago, probably even moreso, but couldn't sustain it. Still, he should get credit for those prime years, and I think they often get discounted because they occured right at the start of his career instead of in the middle of it.

Sundin was more consistent, and probably has the most "good" seasons of the three, but that's about it IMO. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a point-collector, but based on what I saw, Mats' best was a clear notch below Modano and Roenick's best.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,177
14,561
winning the Hart Trophy in one season does not make you automatically the best player in the game. Especially since if you asked anybody they would say Lemieux was the best player in the league that season. Sakic had a fine season, and deserved his Hart Trophy, but he was not the best player in the nhl. If Sakic had consistently been Hart Trophy contention then yes, he would deserve cosnideration as the best player in the game, but that was the only tiume he ever sniffed the Hart in his career. I don't think anybody ever considered Jose Theodore the best player int he game, or Brett hull, or even Sergei Fedorov when they won their Hart Trophies.

Career Hart trophy votes, 1947-present

Rank|Player|Votes
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 901
2 | Gordie Howe | 605
3 | Mario Lemieux | 486
4 | Jaromir Jagr | 399
5 | Bobby Orr | 349
6 | Bobby Hull | 293
7 | Dominik Hasek | 289
8 | Jean Beliveau | 283
9 | Bobby Clarke | 276
10 | Phil Esposito | 264
11 | Mark Messier | 223
12 | Maurice Richard | 222
13 | Guy Lafleur | 205
14 | Alexander Ovechkin | 201
15 | Martin Brodeur | 199
16 | Stan Mikita | 195
17 | Bryan Trottier | 177
18 | Andy Bathgate | 162
19 | Milt Schmidt | 151
20 | Eric Lindros | 143
21 | Jarome Iginla | 139
22 | Joe Thornton | 136
23 | Ray Bourque | 134
24 | Joe Sakic | 131
25 | Glenn Hall | 126

Sakic is in excellent company, and that doesn't even take his Conn Smythe into consideration. For the record, Bure ranks 55th. Read here for methodology & data sources.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,877
16,393
roenick's a tough case, because objectively, he's close to a bunch of players i would induct (recchi, fleury), and he's close to a bunch of players i wouldn't (sundin, mogilny, nieuwendyk, turgeon). he's close to a bunch of players who are in (federko, mullen), and he's behind a bunch of players who are out (oates, gilmour). maybe it's instructive to compare him to recchi and fleury, who the majority probably wouldn't induct.

everybody is saying, "remember roenick's prime. for four years, he was elite." but was he really more elite in those years than recchi or fleury?

roenick was the third best player on a team that went to the finals (behind chelios and belfour). recchi was the best regular season player and probably the second or third best playoff player on a team that won the cup (behind lemieux and maybe stevens), and was consistently an offensive leader on his philly and montreal teams. fleury won his only cup as a rookie, but was the best forward and at times best player on a star-studded but demoralized and directionless flames team. in most years, he was the only one on the team who seemed to give a ***, while guys like gilmour, nieuwendyk, macinnis, suter, and vernon were just waiting to punch their ticket out of town. even though he never made it out of the first round in calgary after his rookie year, he was usually outstanding in the playoffs, as were roenick and recchi in their primes.

roenick had two top ten finishes in goals (3, 10) and in points (7, 5). recchi had one top ten in goals (9), four in assists (4, 7, 1, 9), and four in points (4, 10, 9, 3). fleury has three top ten finishes in goals (3, 6, 7), two in assists (7, 6), and three in points (8, 6, 7). recchi has the best career numbers, but was also the least spectacular of the three. but i think, objectively, these three are pretty close, with recchi slightly ahead of the other two in both peak and career accomplishment.

so why recchi and fleury, but not roenick (or sundin, mogilny, nieuwendyk, turgeon, and others)? i have my biases, as does everyone who has a HHOF vote. i liked recchi's game. he is a true pro, one of the best playmakers from the wing of his time, always gave 100%, and was as steady as they come. fleury is another guy who i loved watching. i always say, nobody i've ever seen looks like he has more fun playing hockey than theo fleury did, and that goes a long way in my books. i never really cared for roenick's sideshow antics; they always seemed hollow and self-serving to me. but then i never minded fleury's sideshow antics. there's a clear double-standard here, and this is what makes me think that it's a crapshoot with borderline players like these. in any given year, if there's enough guys who like you for some irrational reason over the 10-15 very similar players who are also eligible, then you get in. fleury and recchi have their fans, sundin has his, and roenick does too. if i had to bet, i'd bet on JR getting in someday, but i wouldn't vote for him.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Roenick

Jeremy Roenick is a borderline candidate for the HHOF. One of my criteria is whether teams looking for the difference maker for the playoffs made an effort to get the player at the trade deadline.

Mark Recchi was always in demand at the trade deadline. Jeremy Roenick not so much.
 
Last edited:

Fish on The Sand

Untouchable
Feb 28, 2002
60,248
1,949
Canada
Career Hart trophy votes, 1947-present

Rank|Player|Votes
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 901
2 | Gordie Howe | 605
3 | Mario Lemieux | 486
4 | Jaromir Jagr | 399
5 | Bobby Orr | 349
6 | Bobby Hull | 293
7 | Dominik Hasek | 289
8 | Jean Beliveau | 283
9 | Bobby Clarke | 276
10 | Phil Esposito | 264
11 | Mark Messier | 223
12 | Maurice Richard | 222
13 | Guy Lafleur | 205
14 | Alexander Ovechkin | 201
15 | Martin Brodeur | 199
16 | Stan Mikita | 195
17 | Bryan Trottier | 177
18 | Andy Bathgate | 162
19 | Milt Schmidt | 151
20 | Eric Lindros | 143
21 | Jarome Iginla | 139
22 | Joe Thornton | 136
23 | Ray Bourque | 134
24 | Joe Sakic | 131
25 | Glenn Hall | 126

Sakic is in excellent company, and that doesn't even take his Conn Smythe into consideration. For the record, Bure ranks 55th. Read here for methodology & data sources.

you see, my point is not Sakic is not hall of fame, that would be stupid. My point was was never the best playe rin hockey, and your hart trophy voting thing proved my point. There are a number of contemporaries well ahead of him. He may have had the best season, but having the best season doesn't make you the best playe rin the game.
 

Fish on The Sand

Untouchable
Feb 28, 2002
60,248
1,949
Canada
Jeremy Roenick is a borderline candidate for the HHOF. One of my criteria is whether teams looking for the difference maker for the playoffs made an effort to get the player at the trade deadline.

Mark Recchi was always in demand at the trade deadline. Jeremy Roenick not so much.

Jeremy Roenick hasn't been in demand because he was never expendable.
 

Jumptheshark

Rebooting myself
Oct 12, 2003
99,867
13,850
Somewhere on Uranus
Well--I like Roenick

but I don't think he is a clear cut HHOF. While he does have over 500 goals(the magic mark)--but I think he gets in on his 3rd try. He had 4 real good years in chicago, but after he left he became just good and not great. He only topped 30 goals one 3 times after leaving chicago and never toped 80 pots again.

I don't think he is as clear cut as some people would like to think.
 

Ward Cornell

Registered User
Dec 22, 2007
6,399
2,624
Being an average to good player for a very long time doesn't make him a great player let alone HOF worthy!
 

Jumptheshark

Rebooting myself
Oct 12, 2003
99,867
13,850
Somewhere on Uranus
useless information of the day

the 1988 draft

4 50 goal scorers, 6 players scored more then 1000 pts in theiur career

claude lapointe who was taken in the 12th round scored 305 points in 879 games--more pts then 14 players taken in the first round and his career games puts him at 16th most games played of all draft picks

88 was a bad year for goalies
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,199
7,346
Regina, SK
Jeremy Roenick is a borderline candidate for the HHOF. One of my criteria is whether teams looking for the difference maker for the playoffs made an effort to get the player at the trade deadline.

Mark Recchi was always in demand at the trade deadline. Jeremy Roenick not so much.

Players that are usually on playoff teams don't get a chance to be deadline pickups. Good teams are buyers, not sellers. That is the worst criteria I have ever heard.

Apply it to Tom Lysiak all you want, but it is not applicable to Roenick.
 

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
261
Toronto
Players that are usually on playoff teams don't get a chance to be deadline pickups. Good teams are buyers, not sellers. That is the worst criteria I have ever heard.

Apply it to Tom Lysiak all you want, but it is not applicable to Roenick.

Agreed. That theory makes no sense at all. Roenick was on playoff teams in 15 of his first 16 NHL seasons. Apart from his rookie season, he was always a major part of his squad's success during this period. Why would Chicago/Phoenix/Philly trade their top scorer at the deadline when they were heading into the playoffs?
 
Last edited:

Fish on The Sand

Untouchable
Feb 28, 2002
60,248
1,949
Canada
Wayne Gretzky, Guy Lafleur, Bobby Orr, Ray Bourque and Patrick Roy were expendable enough to be traded or let go as a free agent!

Guy Lafleur was never let go while he was a good player, and Roy was not expendable, having a stupid GM doesn't make a player expendable. Bourque was because first, he was 39 years old, and second because Boston wasn't going to do anything with him so they were better off giving him a shot at the cup and getting youth back. As for Gretz, I assume he was the let go as a free agent, and he was past his prime and probably didn't even want to be in St. Louis. Probably not much that the Blues could have done there. Yes, there were years where Roenick was expendable, but usually he was on a contending team. Why would a contending team deal Roenick at the deadline?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad