Blue Jays Discussion: RIP Roy Halladay (1977-2017)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC


It was interesting to hear him talk about some of the prospects.

On Vlad\Bo, he didn't want to commit to a timeline, but said: "timelines are set by players not front office. For me to tell you that they're going to be our starting shortstop (Bo) and another starting corner infielder, playing first base or moving to the outfield (Vlad), in 2019\2020, would be irresponsible. We'll see"

Beyond those two, he gave shout outs to (in order): Pearson, Warmoth, Jansen, Borucki (mentioned twice), Alford....Gurriel, McGuire. Think the farm system is deep, providing great depth and\or ability to make a trade.

Aside from the prospects, he made it pretty clear they're plan is to compete in 2018. Likes the core, thinks injuries derailed the season, cited the fact that after April they'd been one of the better teams in the AL (63-63, prior to last night).
 

Longshot

Registered User
Jul 2, 2008
11,161
312
Ontario, Canada
In more random news former Blue Jay and MLBer Raul Mondesi is going to prison for 8 years

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ntenced-corruption-charges-dominican-republic

For corruption of all things.

Now there's a name from the past.

Those were the bad old days, when the Jays under GM Gord Ash were desperately trying to be a contender with a payroll that was less than half of New York's.

Imagine if they had of traded prime assets like Shawn Green, Roger Clemens and Carlos Delgado (who re-signed with the team, but in hindsight he should have been traded for futures since they were going nowhere at the time) for a bunch of quality prospects.
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
Yeah Atkins made it pretty clear they plan to be aggressive in the off-season. That was one of the reasons Chips wanted to stay
 

RoyalCitySlicker

Registered User
Sep 6, 2013
2,123
848
Yeah Atkins made it pretty clear they plan to be aggressive in the off-season. That was one of the reasons Chips wanted to stay

Did he not say in the interview that he expects the team to be much the same next year as this year?

While I am not doom and gloom about next year, I didn't get that same vibe about the aggressive plan.

Perhaps I misread (listened).
 

Garlando

Registered User
May 5, 2014
685
237
Kingston, Ontario
The Jays have been making both moves (Estrada resigning) and statements (that it’s highly unlikely that Donaldson is moved this offseason) that indicate that the organization is going to continue forward with largely the same core, and is looking to re-tool and try and get competitive again for next year. Donaldson is the heart of the core as the best player on the team, and his impending potential free agency in 2018 has me waffling on the course of action that I feel is best for the franchise’s future (armchair GM mode engaged). Is he worth more as a bridge to the next core that helps keep the competitive window open and provides leadership, or is he more valuable as a trade chip that allows the organization to acquire more players that fit the same timeline as the next core (the Vlad Jr, Bichette, Warmoth, Urena, Pearson, Alford etc)?

So Donaldson is 31, turning 32 over the offseason and is scheduled to become a free agent at the end of the 2018 season. So he will be on the back end of career looking for a new deal. Will he want to re-sign in Toronto and what would that deal look like? Maybe it’s different behind closed doors, but Shapiro/Atkins have not shown to be strong relationship people when it comes to players on the team. Just look at where Shapiro/Atkins were in the celebrations last year compared to AA who was in the middle of them the year before. The lack of communication with EE last year during the offseason is another example. I think a potential lack of quality relationship could work against them in negotiations with Donaldson. Also consider in that this will be Donaldson’s big kick at the can at free agency, his chance to maximize earnings and set up not only his future, but his future generations. Being the competitor that he is, I would think he would prioritize a chance to win a World Series too. Not sure the Jays can offer Donaldson the best chance to win a world series at this point. To me, these things cast doubt that Donaldson would resign with the Jays and that puts them at risk of losing their franchise player for a compensation draft pick (1st rounder but still) if they don’t resign him. He is worth far more than that in a trade without a doubt.

Now Donaldson’s value in a deal is likely highest in a deal over the offseason rather than sometime in the middle of next year for 2 reasons. A team acquiring him would get his value over a full-season and hypothetically if he didn’t resign with that team, that team would get a compensation pick for losing him. He’s also healthy now which isn’t a guarantee going forward. Donaldson has had calf issues for a lot of his Blue Jays career, playing through pain and missing pieces of the season over the last 2 years because of it. Donaldson suffering through more injuries while playing next year could neuter his value to the Jays in a trade but could help in a long-term deal. Now the need for 3rd baseman isn’t super high because a lot of competing teams have quality ones. There are teams that you can easily see in the market for Donaldson in a trade. Teams like the Yankees, the Angels, the Twins, the Giants, the Mets, the Cardinals, and maybe even the Brewers and the Pirates.

The hard part about potentially moving Donaldson is that you very likely wouldn’t be able to acquire value back that would make the team better or maintain skill level in the short-term, and so you’d be waving the white flag on a team that isn’t THAT far from being a playoff club with better injury luck and some re-tooling. You’d be wasting quality innings from an in-his-prime Stroman, a potentially healthy Aaron Sanchez who led the AL in ERA just last year, and Osuna who is one of the better relievers in the league. You’d be wasting the acquisitions of Morales and Pearce from last year and so much more. The big part is you’d be signaling to the fanbase that you aren’t really interested in fully competing for the upcoming year and that could lead to a big drop in ticket sales and therefore revenue. There are so many factors that go into a decision like this and I’m not sure what I would do. Excited to get into the offseason and see what the Jays do to add value to the organization!
 

GoonieFace

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
7,032
6,708
The Matrix
Did he not say in the interview that he expects the team to be much the same next year as this year?

While I am not doom and gloom about next year, I didn't get that same vibe about the aggressive plan.

Perhaps I misread (listened).

Essentially the core will remain intact, mainly because they are stuck with most of them. I think they will be aggressive in adding another quality starter, at least 1 outfielder via trade or free agency and adding some depth to the infield. I wouldn't be shocked if they added an everyday 2B as well, sad to say but you can't really rely on Travis to stay healthy.

If they can avoid being devastated by injuries, than they will contend for a wildcard spot.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
Now there's a name from the past.

Those were the bad old days, when the Jays under GM Gord Ash were desperately trying to be a contender with a payroll that was less than half of New York's.

Imagine if they had of traded prime assets like Shawn Green, Roger Clemens and Carlos Delgado (who re-signed with the team, but in hindsight he should have been traded for futures since they were going nowhere at the time) for a bunch of quality prospects.

The things done in 1999 pretty much broke the franchise prior to the Riccardi era. You could re-write history getting the Clemens (for Pettite), Green (for Beltre), and Hentgen (for Morris) deals correct. Alas, Gord Ash was about as bad as Riccardi.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
2,996
Washington, DC
The Jays have been making both moves (Estrada resigning) and statements (that it’s highly unlikely that Donaldson is moved this offseason) that indicate that the organization is going to continue forward with largely the same core, and is looking to re-tool and try and get competitive again for next year. Donaldson is the heart of the core as the best player on the team, and his impending potential free agency in 2018 has me waffling on the course of action that I feel is best for the franchise’s future (armchair GM mode engaged). Is he worth more as a bridge to the next core that helps keep the competitive window open and provides leadership, or is he more valuable as a trade chip that allows the organization to acquire more players that fit the same timeline as the next core (the Vlad Jr, Bichette, Warmoth, Urena, Pearson, Alford etc)?

So Donaldson is 31, turning 32 over the offseason and is scheduled to become a free agent at the end of the 2018 season. So he will be on the back end of career looking for a new deal. Will he want to re-sign in Toronto and what would that deal look like? Maybe it’s different behind closed doors, but Shapiro/Atkins have not shown to be strong relationship people when it comes to players on the team. Just look at where Shapiro/Atkins were in the celebrations last year compared to AA who was in the middle of them the year before. The lack of communication with EE last year during the offseason is another example. I think a potential lack of quality relationship could work against them in negotiations with Donaldson. Also consider in that this will be Donaldson’s big kick at the can at free agency, his chance to maximize earnings and set up not only his future, but his future generations. Being the competitor that he is, I would think he would prioritize a chance to win a World Series too. Not sure the Jays can offer Donaldson the best chance to win a world series at this point. To me, these things cast doubt that Donaldson would resign with the Jays and that puts them at risk of losing their franchise player for a compensation draft pick (1st rounder but still) if they don’t resign him. He is worth far more than that in a trade without a doubt.

Now Donaldson’s value in a deal is likely highest in a deal over the offseason rather than sometime in the middle of next year for 2 reasons. A team acquiring him would get his value over a full-season and hypothetically if he didn’t resign with that team, that team would get a compensation pick for losing him. He’s also healthy now which isn’t a guarantee going forward. Donaldson has had calf issues for a lot of his Blue Jays career, playing through pain and missing pieces of the season over the last 2 years because of it. Donaldson suffering through more injuries while playing next year could neuter his value to the Jays in a trade but could help in a long-term deal. Now the need for 3rd baseman isn’t super high because a lot of competing teams have quality ones. There are teams that you can easily see in the market for Donaldson in a trade. Teams like the Yankees, the Angels, the Twins, the Giants, the Mets, the Cardinals, and maybe even the Brewers and the Pirates.

The hard part about potentially moving Donaldson is that you very likely wouldn’t be able to acquire value back that would make the team better or maintain skill level in the short-term, and so you’d be waving the white flag on a team that isn’t THAT far from being a playoff club with better injury luck and some re-tooling. You’d be wasting quality innings from an in-his-prime Stroman, a potentially healthy Aaron Sanchez who led the AL in ERA just last year, and Osuna who is one of the better relievers in the league. You’d be wasting the acquisitions of Morales and Pearce from last year and so much more. The big part is you’d be signaling to the fanbase that you aren’t really interested in fully competing for the upcoming year and that could lead to a big drop in ticket sales and therefore revenue. There are so many factors that go into a decision like this and I’m not sure what I would do. Excited to get into the offseason and see what the Jays do to add value to the organization!

Oh my...
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
Did he not say in the interview that he expects the team to be much the same next year as this year?

While I am not doom and gloom about next year, I didn't get that same vibe about the aggressive plan.

Perhaps I misread (listened).

I think he meant they'll be aggressive to upgrade a few positions, but did indicate they'll have better depth options next year - Pompey, Smith Jr, Urena, etc
 

RoyalCitySlicker

Registered User
Sep 6, 2013
2,123
848
Essentially the core will remain intact, mainly because they are stuck with most of them. I think they will be aggressive in adding another quality starter, at least 1 outfielder via trade or free agency and adding some depth to the infield. I wouldn't be shocked if they added an everyday 2B as well, sad to say but you can't really rely on Travis to stay healthy.

If they can avoid being devastated by injuries, than they will contend for a wildcard spot.

I think he meant they'll be aggressive to upgrade a few positions, but did indicate they'll have better depth options next year - Pompey, Smith Jr, Urena, etc

I agree in principle with what you both are saying and your thoughts going forward - I just didn't hear from Atkins that he was going to be aggressive in acquiring all of those things. He admitted the team will be looking for help in certain areas, but I didn't get the same feeling of him being aggressive in the pursuit of that help.

Pretty sure he believes, and rightfully so, that the bones of a contending team in 2018 are here, however how fragile those bones are and whether they can avoid the breaks of this year remain to be seen.

We shall see what they decide to do, but I expect an off season much like the last one. A few pieces added here and there....a mix of value, crap shoots and a few solid vets. I don't expect anything too exciting, and that's fine.
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
I agree in principle with what you both are saying and your thoughts going forward - I just didn't hear from Atkins that he was going to be aggressive in acquiring all of those things. He admitted the team will be looking for help in certain areas, but I didn't get the same feeling of him being aggressive in the pursuit of that help.

Pretty sure he believes, and rightfully so, that the bones of a contending team in 2018 are here, however how fragile those bones are and whether they can avoid the breaks of this year remain to be seen.

We shall see what they decide to do, but I expect an off season much like the last one. A few pieces added here and there....a mix of value, crap shoots and a few solid vets. I don't expect anything too exciting, and that's fine.

I listened again and he said:

"We'll be aggressive in the (something) off-season to make our team better whether that's trades or free agency"

He did talk a lot about the core and having them healthy, but if there are set-backs, they'll have more depth to address
 

Garlando

Registered User
May 5, 2014
685
237
Kingston, Ontario

Note that I prefaced it with "maybe it's different behind closed doors," because I don't know the strength of relationships between management and the players at all, but from the outside looking in and reports that have come out, it seems like the relationships between management and the players aren't super strong. Do you see Mark Shapio or Ross Atkins celebrating with the team here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4h7VvmAbl8

I saw Chris Antonetti celebrating with the Indians this week during their Central Division champions celebrations. I remember Alex Anthopolus celebrating with the boys, congratulating and thanking players after their WC and DS wins. It may not be much, but those little things like that build relationships, they show that your boss cares and values your contributions, and enhances clubhouse culture. It's those little things that help sell a player on staying with an organization. So many examples come to mind, but look at Masai Ujiri and him retaining Lowry and Derozan, really the first time that the Raptors have been able to retain upper-tier talent. Ujiri gave them a chance and supported them and built that relationship and now both Lowry and Derozan are still in Toronto looking to continue building on their success. In the public eye, I just haven't seen Shapiro and Atkins build those relationships and those could impact future negotiations with star players. If you or anyone has proof otherwise, feel free to share.
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
10,735
5,873
Note that I prefaced it with "maybe it's different behind closed doors," because I don't know the strength of relationships between management and the players at all, but from the outside looking in and reports that have come out, it seems like the relationships between management and the players aren't super strong. Do you see Mark Shapio or Ross Atkins celebrating with the team here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4h7VvmAbl8

I saw Chris Antonetti celebrating with the Indians this week during their Central Division champions celebrations. I remember Alex Anthopolus celebrating with the boys, congratulating and thanking players after their WC and DS wins. It may not be much, but those little things like that build relationships, they show that your boss cares and values your contributions, and enhances clubhouse culture. It's those little things that help sell a player on staying with an organization. So many examples come to mind, but look at Masai Ujiri and him retaining Lowry and Derozan, really the first time that the Raptors have been able to retain upper-tier talent. Ujiri gave them a chance and supported them and built that relationship and now both Lowry and Derozan are still in Toronto looking to continue building on their success. In the public eye, I just haven't seen Shapiro and Atkins build those relationships and those could impact future negotiations with star players. If you or anyone has proof otherwise, feel free to share.

Marco Estrada, November, 2015. More recently, Marco Estrada, literally 24 hours ago.

You add the caveat about "maybe it's different behind closed doors", but then you build your opinion on the tiniest little fraction of interactions that you can see in public and on camera while ignoring that way, way more than 99% of actual meaningful interactions happen where you can't see them. You have so little information to go on, and that information is so loaded with assumptions, that it makes no sense at all to even begin to speculate about something like this.
 

RoyalCitySlicker

Registered User
Sep 6, 2013
2,123
848
I listened again and he said:

"We'll be aggressive in the (something) off-season to make our team better whether that's trades or free agency"

He did talk a lot about the core and having them healthy, but if there are set-backs, they'll have more depth to address

Doesn't get much more clear than that! Whether it comes to fruition and why is a different story, but time will tell.

Thanks for taking the time to relisten!
 

Garlando

Registered User
May 5, 2014
685
237
Kingston, Ontario
Marco Estrada, November, 2015. More recently, Marco Estrada, literally 24 hours ago.

You add the caveat about "maybe it's different behind closed doors", but then you build your opinion on the tiniest little fraction of interactions that you can see in public and on camera while ignoring that way, way more than 99% of actual meaningful interactions happen where you can't see them. You have so little information to go on, and that information is so loaded with assumptions, that it makes no sense at all to even begin to speculate about something like this.

Good point about Estrada! The comments on his desire to be pitching for a city that he loves, a country that he loves, an organization that he loves and trusts show the strong culture within the organization. I realize I was reaching at straws. I guess I was still thinking of the EE negotiations where there was blame all around including EE's agent, as well as management who while offering him fair $ value, caught EE by surprise by moving on from him and that to me shows lack of some lack of communication and relationship. As a Jays fan, I just want management to have a quality line of communication with Donaldson as his value to the organization is immense. The organization needs to avoid getting the minimum value for him (1st round comp. pick). Relationship and communication will be key in avoiding that.
 

Neil Hamburger

Five Bagger!
Jun 15, 2010
3,553
6
Toronto
Good point about Estrada! The comments on his desire to be pitching for a city that he loves, a country that he loves, an organization that he loves and trusts show the strong culture within the organization. I realize I was reaching at straws. I guess I was still thinking of the EE negotiations where there was blame all around including EE's agent, as well as management who while offering him fair $ value, caught EE by surprise by moving on from him and that to me shows lack of some lack of communication and relationship. As a Jays fan, I just want management to have a quality line of communication with Donaldson as his value to the organization is immense. The organization needs to avoid getting the minimum value for him (1st round comp. pick). Relationship and communication will be key in avoiding that.

I believe they removed comp picks. The minimum value we can get for Donaldson is now zero.
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
10,735
5,873
as well as management who while offering him fair $ value, caught EE by surprise by moving on from him

Pretty sure that didn't actually happen, though. They offered him a deal and gave him a deadline. Then they extended the deadline. Then they extended the deadline again. Then they moved on and EE's agent pulled the "Whaaaa? How could they do this to us?" routine so he didn't look like he screwed up.

Management isn't blameless by any means, but the idea that they didn't communicate with Edwin's side is just silly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->