Coach Discussion: Rick Bowness - Jack Adams Finalist

[LowLefty]

My thoughts on Bones is he needs strong assistants for the more tactical aspects of the game. Our offense went into the shitter when Lauer went down and improved again once he got back.

No issue with him overseeing the integration of our youth. We need our next wave to have a good defensive foundation to their games.

It's hard to say what the tactical plan was -

Our offense crashed but so did the game plan from earlier in the season -
It looked to me like Bones directed most of his attention to getting the guys back to that plan - which wasn't complicated but required 100% buy in.
It was very much work based - and that's where the struggles began. If you can't get them back on track to the basic message, it might be hard to start looking at tactical. And at the very least, the basic game plan needs to be priority one.

I would say that the players were likely more interested in tactics over a plan based on hard work and a basic hockey strategy.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Wouldn’t be shocked if Bowness has second thoughts about coming back this year if changes aren’t made.
Rick would know exactly who needs to go.

 

[ps241]

I would counter that Bowness is the reason the Stars are who they are today. He over saw the maturation of players like Robertson,Hintz,Oettinger and Heiskainen. They dumped him and those 4 in particular rose to prominence this year and lead that team. Without him and his ability to allow young players to flourish I am not sure they would be the team they are today

With or without Bowness they were always going to score more goals. Because those young guys got a chance to play under him and learn how to play in the NHL. It is funny but it was the older guys that played poorly under him. Benn,Seguin,Radulov,Klingberg. The only guy that really bought into Bones style in Dallas was Pavelski. They Jettisoned Radulov and Klingberg but got a resurgent Benn this year. Seguin still is Seguin and they are stuck with him

I would say that our younger guys are going to be better with Bowness going forward whoever those guys maybe, Perfetti/Lucuis/McGroarty/Lambert/Heinola etc...

I think he is ideal moving forward especially if we go younger. I give him a solid B this year. He got us to the playoffs which is more then I was expecting out this group

I will give Rick props for not getting in the way on Robertson and Hintz and maybe helping them. He didn’t have problems making them the stars of the team despite more tenured vets like Benn Seguin still being active. Heiskanen‘s production exloded after Bowness left though so I would say Rick was not helping there and maybe getting in the way by prioritizing Klingberg who was regressing pretty hard.

I didn’t mind the way Rick dealt with Perfetti and Samberg this season so I am ok with Rick sticking around next season especially if we are integrating more young players (fingers crossed).

Dallas’s improvement this past season has been night and day though. I think under Rick they were forced into a pretty conservative style of play.

 

[surixon]

It's hard to say what the tactical plan was -

Our offense crashed but so did the game plan from earlier in the season -
It looked to me like Bones directed most of his attention to getting the guys back to that plan - which wasn't complicated but required 100% buy in.
It was very much work based - and that's where the struggles began. If you can't get them back on track to the basic message, it might be hard to start looking at tactical. And at the very least, the basic game plan needs to be priority one.

I would say that the players were likely more interested in tactics over a plan based on hard work and a basic hockey strategy.

Even if you play a game based on work ethic you still need good offensive tactics and imo that took a step back with Lauer out. No doubt when that happened there was friction between Bones and the team cough Mark's comments cough.

 

[DRW204]

The change in Dallas' defensive game started with Montgomery. Bowness evidently on the staff there too. When Bowness was first hired it was something I wondered how much was Bowness vs Montgomery influence. Not to say Bowness was bad, but not sure how much you could distinguish from either of the coaches and how much ultimately was transferable here.

it's hard to ignore Dallas offense this year though. After being near the bottom of the league under Bowness they broke out in a major way under DeBoer.

Which brings me to DeBoer... Never really understood why he got hate by some last year during our coach search. He seems to do fine in most places he goes especially given a win-now team with possibly a short window.

 

[JetsUK]

The change in Dallas' defensive game started with Montgomery. Bowness evidently on the staff there too. When Bowness was first hired it was something I wondered how much was Bowness vs Montgomery influence. Not to say Bowness was bad, but not sure how much you could distinguish from either of the coaches and how much ultimately was transferable here.

it's hard to ignore Dallas offense this year though. After being near the bottom of the league under Bowness they broke out in a major way under DeBoer.

Which brings me to DeBoer... Never really understood why he got hate by some last year during our coach search. He seems to do fine in most places he goes especially given a win-now team with possibly a short window.

IIRC, the hate he got had more to do fan analysis of some of his moves and tactics with previous teams and with his longtime friendship with Maurice and perceived kindred-spiritedness.

I feel like there were quite a few here who looked at the numbers and thought he'd be fine.

 

[LowLefty]

Even if you play a game based on work ethic you still need good offensive tactics and imo that took a step back with Lauer out. No doubt when that happened there was friction between Bones and the team cough Mark's comments cough.

I agree - you need more than hard work - I wouldn't suggest otherwise.
But I would also suggest that if you wanted to get things operating as they were, and the motor is blown, you'd likely spend less time worrying about the flat tire.
I guess it comes down to what you believe to have been the major issue.
I watched the top six slip back into some old habits - which had very little to do with tactics although Mark might want us to think otherwise.

 

[DRW204]

IIRC, the hate he got had more to do fan analysis of some of his moves and tactics with previous teams and with his longtime friendship with Maurice and perceived kindred-spiritedness.

I feel like there were quite a few here who looked at the numbers and thought he'd be fine.

took a quick, non super in-depth stroll of last year's new coach thread (it's 216 pages lol). there was definitely some of that, not sure if folks were being facetious or not. but there was many posts that just scoffed at him as our coach. few posters endorsed for sure. i just didn't really get why many were down on him.

 

[surixon]

I agree - you need more than hard work - I wouldn't suggest otherwise.
But I would also suggest that if you wanted to get things operating as they were, and the motor is blown, you'd likely spend less time worrying about the flat tire.
I guess it comes down to what you believe to have been the major issue.
I watched the top six slip back into some old habits - which had very little to do with tactics although Mark might want us to think otherwise.

They absolutely slipped back into old habits. The question is why did they. I am of the opinion that as they got more and more frustrated they listened less and less and those past habits were seen more frequently.

As for Mark vs. Bones I think they both had a point. Bones was trying to over simplify the offense due the teams struggles. He figured they'd score more that way whereas Mark's point about trying to open more quality looks with movement to score more. Different ways of looking at the same issue imo.

Anyhow I expect to see less bad habits on display next year due to repetition of the new scheme this psst year as well as what I'm expecting to be an active summer of moving our some of those long standing top 6 players like Scheifele, Dubois and possibly Wheeler. Bones will likely get much more of a blank canvas to work with.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Bones will likely get much more of a blank canvas to work with.

I don't think it gets more blank than this.

 

[Atoyot]

They absolutely slipped back into old habits. The question is why did they. I am of the opinion that as they got more and more frustrated they listened less and less and those past habits were seen more frequently.

As for Mark vs. Bones I think they both had a point. Bones was trying to over simplify the offense due the teams struggles. He figured they'd score more that way whereas Mark's point about trying to open more quality looks with movement to score more. Different ways of looking at the same issue imo.

Anyhow I expect to see less bad habits on display next year due to repetition of the new scheme this psst year as well as what I'm expecting to be an active summer of moving our some of those long standing top 6 players like Scheifele, Dubois and possibly Wheeler. Bones will likely get much more of a blank canvas to work with.

Weird thing to me was he preached a certain type of game, had players that excelled playing that type of game and were producing playing that type of game and set the example for everybody else, then when the team got healthy they were the first players out of the lineup. Then everybody stopped playing that type of game.

 

[LowLefty]

Weird thing to me was he preached a certain type of game, had players that excelled playing that type of game and were producing playing that type of game and set the example for everybody else, then when the team got healthy they were the first players out of the lineup. Then everybody stopped playing that type of game.

Interesting point -
Which players are you referring to and what kind of production did we lose when pulled?
Were there better options?

 

[surixon]

Weird thing to me was he preached a certain type of game, had players that excelled playing that type of game and were producing playing that type of game and set the example for everybody else, then when the team got healthy they were the first players out of the lineup. Then everybody stopped playing that type of game.

I mean the one major player we had consistently out of the lineup the first half was Ehlers and a lesser one in Appelton. Sure some other players missed a handful of games here and there but we had generally a full top 6 and largely the same bottom 6 we deployed most of the year.

Are you suggesting that guys like Kuhlman and Essymiont were the difference between buy in and not?

 

[Atoyot]

I mean the one major player we had consistently out of the lineup the first half was Ehlers and a lesser one in Appelton. Sure some other players missed a handful of games here and there but we had generally a full top 6 and largely the same bottom 6 we deployed most of the year.

Are you suggesting that guys like Kuhlman and Essymiont were the difference between buy in and not?

Not entirely, but it's strange to see the players who embody the style he's preaching be pulled out and sends a confusing message. I think more than anything he took out the depth options that actually scored (Fjallby and Harkins were tied for 5th on the team for goal scoring rate, Eyssimont put up points at a higher rate than every bottom 6er other than Fjallby) and it became easier to focus on our skilled guys. Then when they started getting shut down players started doing things differently to try and find solutions. Again, just weird to see him say he wants to play a high pressure high tempo game, then take out the players that actually do that. And then play players that are worse by every metric.

Interesting point -
Which players are you referring to and what kind of production did we lose when pulled?
Were there better options?

Harkins and Fjallby scored goals at a higher rate than all but 4 players on the team (yes I know Harkins only scored 2 goals) and Eyssimont scored points at a higher rate than everybody except Fjallby in the bottom 6.

 

[surixon]

Not entirely, but it's strange to see the players who embody the style he's preaching be pulled out and sends a confusing message. I think more than anything he took out the depth options that actually scored (Fjallby and Harkins were tied for 5th on the team for goal scoring rate, Eyssimont put up points at a higher rate than every bottom 6er other than Fjallby) and it became easier to focus on our skilled guys. Then when they started getting shut down players started doing things differently to try and find solutions. Again, just weird to see him say he wants to play a high pressure high tempo game, then take out the players that actually do that. And then play players that are worse by every metric.

Good points. I think ultimately you need players up the lineup to be key trend setters (Crosby in Pittaburgh for example). Dubois looked to be that guy in our top 6 but I think that hip injury that he had all second half really prevented him from really playing Bones style effectively like he was the first half.

 

[Atoyot]

Good points. I think ultimately you need players up the lineup to be key trend setters (Crosby in Pittaburgh for example). Dubois looked to be that guy in our top 6 but I think that hip injury that he had all second half really prevented him from really playing Bones style effectively like he was the first half.

Yeah I don't disagree, but a good way to get the top players to buy in to it is to reward the behaviour. If Scheifele didn't want to do it, fine, give him less ice time and others who play the style more. We were first in the division, we can take a few losses to ensure that the message is sent and the habits are solidified. Instead the players that played that way were benched, the players that were playing that way that usually didn't stopped playing that way, then by the time it was completely gone they were so close to missing the playoffs that they couldn't risk playing their top players less.

 

[LowLefty]

Not entirely, but it's strange to see the players who embody the style he's preaching be pulled out and sends a confusing message. I think more than anything he took out the depth options that actually scored (Fjallby and Harkins were tied for 5th on the team for goal scoring rate, Eyssimont put up points at a higher rate than every bottom 6er other than Fjallby) and it became easier to focus on our skilled guys. Then when they started getting shut down players started doing things differently to try and find solutions. Again, just weird to see him say he wants to play a high pressure high tempo game, then take out the players that actually do that. And then play players that are worse by every metric.


Harkins and Fjallby scored goals at a higher rate than all but 4 players on the team (yes I know Harkins only scored 2 goals) and Eyssimont scored points at a higher rate than everybody except Fjallby in the bottom 6.

I like the players you mention - and I'd like to see them in the lineup (other than Eyssimont who they let go - never understood that move).
Harkins I'm not sure about and I don't think it matters anyway -

It is confusing and is likely based on Bones wanting some size in the lineup - and I think the blinders come on to an extent, when he looks at speed / tenacity vs size (especially in PO's). But I don't think the players he left in were lazy or lacking in effort - I'd find it hard to see them having a negative impact on the work vibe Bones was looking for.

I don't think it's complicated - IMO, some players lost the love for playing hard - probably because it's hard.
Hope they make some moves this summer -

 

[surixon]

Yeah I don't disagree, but a good way to get the top players to buy in to it is to reward the behaviour. If Scheifele didn't want to do it, fine, give him less ice time and others who play the style more. We were first in the division, we can take a few losses to ensure that the message is sent and the habits are solidified. Instead the players that played that way were benched, the players that were playing that way that usually didn't stopped playing that way, then by the time it was completely gone they were so close to missing the playoffs that they couldn't risk playing their top players less.

Yup. One thing Bones didn't do was hold the best players accountable until far too late in the year. He was too busy sending messages to young players like Cole for taking a late period busting his ass on a backcheck penalty. That still sticks out to me as guys line Dubois and Wheeler where undisciplined all year.

 

[Atoyot]

I like the players you mention - and I'd like to see them in the lineup (other than Eyssimont who they let go - never understood that move).
Harkins I'm not sure about and I don't think it matters anyway -

It is confusing and is likely based on Bones wanting some size in the lineup - and I think the blinders come on to an extent, when he looks at speed / tenacity vs size (especially in PO's). But I don't think the players he left in were lazy or lacking in effort - I'd find it hard to see them having a negative impact on the work vibe Bones was looking for.

I don't think it's complicated - IMO, some players lost the love for playing hard - probably because it's hard.
Hope they make some moves this summer -

Size can be an asset for sure, but I'd argue that Stenlund never really used his and that Maenalanen's occasional hit didn't make up for the rest of his game. I'd say that the 3 I mentioned played a bigger game, and Harkins is actually decently sized. For the crap he got Harkins was a part of the line that had the best expected and actual results on the team, with Barron and Lowry. I don't think it was a coincidence that Lowry's offensive game fell apart when that line was broken up.

Then there was Kuhlman, who didn't really do anything.

 

[surixon]

Size can be an asset for sure, but I'd argue that Stenlund never really used his and that Maenalanen's occasional hit didn't make up for the rest of his game. I'd say that the 3 I mentioned played a bigger game, and Harkins is actually decently sized. For the crap he got Harkins was a part of the line that had the best expected and actual results on the team, with Barron and Lowry. I don't think it was a coincidence that Lowry's offensive game fell apart when that line was broken up.

Then there was Kuhlman, who didn't really do anything.

I sometimes find coaches get a bit too caught up on a players style or play vs. The style of play they think is needed for a specific role. As you mentioned if you look at results that line was very good but if you read Bones comments he wasn't happy with Harkins and how he played in that role.

 

[Jets 31]

How many coaches do we have to go through before we realize it's absolutely not coaching it's the players ? I thought Bowness did a very good job with this team this season. Bowness didn't cause our top players to stop producing for most of the second half of the season and to only score 1 goal a game against Vegas after game 1 . Keep Bowness and trade some of the players that only play hard when they feel like it.

 

[GaryPoppins]

By my understanding, Bowness is entering in year 2 of his contract and the third year is a club option.

It’ll be very interesting to see what happens especially given how last season ended with both the backslide on the back half of the year, how poorly the team whimpered out of the playoffs and the obvious friction between players and coach at end of year interviews.

My money is on Bowness not being given the year option and Arniel being dubbed head coach.

What say you?

 

[10Ducky10]

By my understanding, Bowness is entering in year 2 of his contract and the third year is a club option.

It’ll be very interesting to see what happens especially given how last season ended with both the backslide on the back half of the year, how poorly the team whimpered out of the playoffs and the obvious friction between players and coach at end of year interviews.

My money is on Bowness not being given the year option and Arniel being dubbed head coach.

What say you?

I'd rather have Bones.

 

[Channelcat]

I'd rather have Bones.

The room would collapse under Arniel. That was a bad hire.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

The room would collapse under Arniel. That was a bad hire.

Dude was in charge of d and the pk which both improved but yeah collapse. Right