Revisiting the Howe/Linseman/Siltanen Trade

[MS]

The Whalers had a bad season in 1982/83, but after that they were better than they had been with Howe. Siltanen had 128 and 126 goals on ice for, 98 and 92 against. Howe in his final Hartford season had 129 for, 120 against. Siltanen was short, but not physically weak or particularly bad defensively. Was called "the Hulk" in Edmonton for a reason.

Listing TGF/TGA for a player who plays PP but doesn't PK is pointless.

They tried putting Siltanen into 1D minutes in 82-83 and he was destoyed and a -39.

Each year after that his icetime dropped and dropped again to the point where by 86-87 (at the age of only 28) he was basically a pure PP specialist playing #6D minutes and was demoted to the AHL despite being the team's highest-scoring defender.

All of the evidence indicates he was not good defensively, at all.

 

[Albatros]

Listing TGF/TGA for a player who plays PP but doesn't PK is pointless.

They tried putting Siltanen into 1D minutes in 82-83 and he was destoyed and a -39.

Each year after that his icetime dropped and dropped again to the point where by 86-87 (at the age of only 28) he was basically a pure PP specialist playing #6D minutes and was demoted to the AHL despite being the team's highest-scoring defender.

All of the evidence indicates he was not good defensively, at all.

Siltanen played all situations, also PK.

Later in his career he had an alcohol problem, but that's a completely different story.

 

[overpass]

The Whalers were competitive with Howe in the lineup before his terrible injury. They were 27-34-19 in 79-80, and they were 13-15-8 to start the 80-81 season. Howe was playing what he later called the best hockey of his career before the injury, with 43 points in 36 games, and he led all Wales conference defencemen in all-star voting.

And then they fell apart after Howe was injured, finishing 8-26-10 partly because he came back too early and struggled.

The Whalers were running a shoestring operation with very little in the way of coaching or front office staff. My guess is they had no clue what to do with Howe as potential damaged goods, no resources or expertise on how to get him back to 100%, and just wanted to get what they could for him. Howe said later he got the first coaching of his career on how to play D when he got to Philly.

 

[MS]

Siltanen played all situations, also PK.

Later in his career he had an alcohol problem, but that's a completely different story.

He played all situations in his first year in Hartford when they slotted him into Howe's 1D minutes, got murdered and Hartford finished as the worst defensive team in the NHL, and then didn't PK much at all after that.

Again, both his raw defensive results and the fact that his icetime dropped every year past age 24 would indicate that this was not a good defensive player. And not even on the same planet as Mark Howe.

__________

Edit: as an aside, does anyone know why Siltanen wasn't at the 1984 Canada Cup? Or 1988 for that matter?

Seems odd that as one of the few prominent Finnish players of the 1980s that he didn't play for the Finnish National team at any tournament after the 1983 WCs when he was only 24.

 

[Anton13]

He played all situations in his first year in Hartford when they slotted him into Howe's 1D minutes, got murdered and Hartford finished as the worst defensive team in the NHL, and then didn't PK much at all after that.

Again, both his raw defensive results and the fact that his icetime dropped every year past age 24 would indicate that this was not a good defensive player. And not even on the same planet as Mark Howe.

__________

Edit: as an aside, does anyone know why Siltanen wasn't at the 1984 Canada Cup? Or 1988 for that matter?

Seems odd that as one of the few prominent Finnish players of the 1980s that he didn't play for the Finnish National team at any tournament after the 1983 WCs when he was only 24.

On his Finnish wikipedia it says that he was sent home from 1983 WC because he showed up drunk to a team meeting. According to wiki Siltanen never forgave coach Alpo Suhonen for sending him home. I think his later absence from NT stems from this incident, either he refused or wasn’t invited.

 

[Albatros]

He played all situations in his first year in Hartford when they slotted him into Howe's 1D minutes, got murdered and Hartford finished as the worst defensive team in the NHL, and then didn't PK much at all after that.

Again, both his raw defensive results and the fact that his icetime dropped every year past age 24 would indicate that this was not a good defensive player. And not even on the same planet as Mark Howe.

__________

Edit: as an aside, does anyone know why Siltanen wasn't at the 1984 Canada Cup? Or 1988 for that matter?

Seems odd that as one of the few prominent Finnish players of the 1980s that he didn't play for the Finnish National team at any tournament after the 1983 WCs when he was only 24.

The NHL hasn't released or even tracked ice time stats in those years. And as said, Howe went on to be a great player in Philadelphia, but nothing guarantees that he would have stepped up his game in Hartford where he had been trending down. Either way the team kept improving without him and were a regular in the playoffs by the end of the decade.

Indeed Siltanen was retired from the national team. At the World Championships he got injured blocking a shot, there had already been abundant rumors about high alcohol consumption within the whole underperforming team, and as injured Siltanen was then caught drinking, the coach made an example and ultimately a public scapegoat of him. It became a major scandal and Siltanen was left bitter for being singled out.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Something Ive noticed over the years,
Its unbelievable how many alcohol-related incidents and issues seem to follow around the Whallicanes franchise:

-Siltanen as mentioned above, although his issues probably have to slightly predate hartford based on the info above. The 80s Oilers definitely werent a dry environment.
-Pronger+others disorderly conduct incident around 1994, led to some team members being arrested, Pronger moved later
-Chiasson dies crashing a truck while DUI on his way home from a team party. (nobody at the party tried to stop him...)
-Darling backslides on his alcohol problems pretty much instantly after arriving in Carolina IIRC.
-Hurricanes announcer Tripp Tracy recently revealed his drinking issues going back to almost the exact same time of the Chiasson disaster. Yes hes the announcer, but he would probably spend a lot of time around the team on the road.

'I was done drinking': Carolina Hurricanes announcer Tripp Tracy reveals his year-long road to recovery :: WRALSportsFan.com

In an exclusive interview with WRAL, Tripp Tracy documents the details of the night his alcoholism caused him to miss a game, why he thought he would lose his job, the support he received from the Hurricanes' organization and fans and the lessons he learned in his first year of sobriety.

www.wralsportsfan.com

I feel like theres at least one more Im forgetting.

Whalers Have Alcohol Trouble

The Hartford Whalers have been grappling with losing seasons for years.

www.latimes.com

According to this one, Holmgren had a DUI as GM, and Marchment was too in 1994.


And the incidents involving Pronger

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/12/29/looming-large-arrests-brawls-and-boozing-were-on-chris-prongers-resume-before-he-grew-up-to-be-a-soaring-presence-for-the-blues

Correct that, Pronger drank underage, and later had a DUI.


Maybe they inherited a really intense drinking culture from their WHA days similar to the Oilers but its never gone away?

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Oh and for a topper, O'Neill had a DUI in Carolina as well

Hurricanes' O'Neill charged with drunk driving

Carolina Hurricanes forward Jeff O'Neill was charged with drunken driving and disorderly conduct on Saturday.

www.espn.in

 

[MS]

The NHL hasn't released or even tracked ice time stats in those years. And as said, Howe went on to be a great player in Philadelphia, but nothing guarantees that he would have stepped up his game in Hartford where he had been trending down. Either way the team kept improving without him and were a regular in the playoffs by the end of the decade.

Indeed Siltanen was retired from the national team. At the World Championships he got injured blocking a shot, there had already been abundant rumors about high alcohol consumption within the whole underperforming team, and as injured Siltanen was then caught drinking, the coach made an example and ultimately a public scapegoat of him. It became a major scandal and Siltanen was left bitter for being singled out.

Howe was already a great player in Hartford.

If he didn't get impaled on a net and miss 17 games in 80-81 he would have had back-to-back top-5 Norris finishes on his resume.

He had one *slighly* down year - which was still basically better than anything Siltanen ever did - while recovering from the horrific injury the prior year.

He was a great player at the point of the trade. Trading Mark Howe in 1982 and getting Risto Siltanen back sucked.

 

[Albatros]

Siltanen as mentioned above, although his issues probably have to slightly predate hartford based on the info above. The 80s Oilers definitely werent a dry environment.

Among the Finnish players there (as well as that infamous 1983 NT) Matti Hagman was known as a heavy drinker already during his playing days and became quite severely alcoholized after his career before dying at 61 as a result.

Esa Tikkanen also suffered of alcoholism after his career, but apparently has it somewhat under control nowadays.

Not sure about the severity of their problems, but backup goalie Kari Takko was convicted of boating under the influence and Raimo Summanen had a drunken bar fight a few years ago.

Besides the players themselves, Jari Kurri was quite professional also in this regard, but his wife started drinking when he got traded to the Rangers and once he retired they then divorced as she had been unable to close the bottle.

Of the Whalers Sami Kapanen also had a very ugly and public divorce after retirement, his wife got convicted of DUI as well.

 

[Albatros]

Howe was already a great player in Hartford.

If he didn't get impaled on a net and miss 17 games in 80-81 he would have had back-to-back top-5 Norris finishes on his resume.

He had one *slighly* down year - which was still basically better than anything Siltanen ever did - while recovering from the horrific injury the prior year.

He was a great player at the point of the trade. Trading Mark Howe in 1982 and getting Risto Siltanen back sucked.

Howe was the best player in the trade, sure, but they also got other assets in return, like the 1st round pick that they eventually turned into Dean Evason and Peter Sidorkiewicz. Especially Evason was very good for them a few years later when they were a playoff team.

 

[MS]

Howe was the best player in the trade, sure, but they also got other assets in return, like the 1st round pick that they eventually turned into Dean Evason and Peter Sidorkiewicz. Especially Evason was very good for them a few years later when they were a playoff team.

Getting #20 overall or Dean Evason doesn't even begin to close the value gap there.

 

[Albatros]

Getting #20 overall or Dean Evason doesn't even begin to close the value gap there.

Either way they soon made the playoffs seven times straight. Siltanen they turned into John Anderson coming from Québec, he ultimately didn't offer a lot of mileage but was a big part of a heroic playoff run in '86 and the Whalers winning their division for the first time the following year. Only to be eliminated by the Nordiques with Siltanen on fire though.

 

[MS]

Either way they soon made the playoffs seven times straight. Siltanen they turned into John Anderson coming from Québec, he ultimately didn't offer a lot of mileage but was a big part of a heroic playoff run in '86 and the Whalers winning their division for the first time the following year. Only to be eliminated by the Nordiques with Siltanen on fire though.

Everyone made the playoffs most years in the 21-team league. And obviously they made some other very good moves (Millen for Liut, Neufeld for Babych, Volcan for Quenneville) that improved their fortunes.

But that doesn't change whether the Howe trade was awful.

 

[Albatros]

Everyone made the playoffs most years in the 21-team league. And obviously they made some other very good moves (Millen for Liut, Neufeld for Babych, Volcan for Quenneville) that improved their fortunes.

But that doesn't change whether the Howe trade was awful.

With Howe they never made the playoffs besides one preliminary round, and also the previously good Flyers didn't after '89 anymore. Surely not his fault in particular, but he also wasn't the decisive factor changing those fortunes.

 

[Staniowski]

I don't remember all the circumstances surrounding this trade, but they were all good players and I think Howe was just at the lowest point of the prime years of his career. He had gone through two big adjustments in the past past few years - the move from LW to D, and then (due to his major injury) the transition from offensive D to a D more focused on playing defense.

It took Howe a few years after the injury to become a great defenseman. That's the biggest issue.

Siltanen was a pretty talented defensemen. I think demographics plays a part with him....following the great D born in the late '40s and early '50s (Orr, Park Savard, Lapointe, Potvin, Salming, Robinson) and before all the talented D born in the 1st-half of the '60s (Bourque, Coffey, Chelios, MacInnis, Hartsburg, Reinhart, Murphy, Stevens, Suter, etc), the was a much smaller and not-as-strong group born in the 2nd-half of the '50s - Wilson, Langway, Siltanen, etc. I think Siltanen eventually got drowned out by the next generation.

And Howe put it all together eventually. So it became a lopsided trade.

 

[MS]

With Howe they never made the playoffs besides one preliminary round, and also the previously good Flyers didn't after '89 anymore. Surely not his fault in particular, but he also wasn't the decisive factor changing those fortunes.

I mean, what does that matter?

Buffalo hasn't done anything with Rasmus Dahlin but if they trade Dahlin tomorrow for Cam York or something ... it's a very bad trade.

If they keep Howe in addition to the other moves they made they would have been a hell of a lot better when they finally briefly peaked in 1987.

 

[Boxscore]

This may be true, but there appears to be solid evidence that at least between 1980 and 1987 they consistently made their goalie look better than they really were.

The crazy part is, a friend of mine interviewed Bobby Clarke about 10 years ago for a documentary he is still working on, and during the segment about Lindbergh's death, he asked Clarke what would have happened if Pelle didn't die and they had him and Hextall coming up. Clarke said they would have traded one for a great forward, which is something they were already contemplating. In the interview, Clarke also mentioned the Flyers were close to acquiring Cam Neely from the Canucks but didn't want to part with Brian Propp in the deal. Could you imagine Neely as a Flyer playing on the same team as Tocchet?

I also need to dig more into Siltanen. From what I remember, he was a small, stocky cat for the Whale who never truly stood out to me. They way the Habs brass talked about it, I obviously need to get more film on him.