René Lecavalier Finals: Pittsburgh AC vs. Belfast Giants

[Sturminator]

Pittsburgh Athletic Club

Coach: Anatoli Tarasov
Assistant Coach: Billy Reay

Paul Kariya-Gordie Howe
Ebbie Goodfellow-Ted Kennedy(C)
Dit Clapper(A)

Darryl Sittler (A)-Dany Heatley
Glen Harmon-Dave Taylor
Herb Gardiner

Veniamin Alexandrov-Vladimir Vikulov
Pit Lepine-Lennart Svedberg
Rod Seiling

Kelly Miller-Ryan Kesler-Ron Stewart

Johnny Bower
Roberto Luongo

Spares: Mike Green, Johnny Gagnon, Paul Shmyr

PP1: Heatley-Sittler-Howe-Kariya-Clapper
PP2: Alexandrov-Kennedy-Vikulov-Svedberg-Goodfellow

PK1: Kesler-Miller-Gardiner-Seiling
PK2: Lepine-Stewart-Goodfellow-Clapper​

Estimated Minutes:

Forward| ES | PP | PK | total
Gordie Howe|16|4|2|22|
Paul Kariya|16|4|0|20|
Ted Kennedy|16|3|2|21|
Darryl Sittler|14|4|0|18|
Dany Heatley|14|4|0|18|
Pit Lepine|14|0|2|16|
Vladimir Vikulov|14|3|0|17|
Veniamin Alexandrov|14|3|0|17|
Dave Taylor|14|0|0|14|
Ryan Kesler|3|0|3|6|
Ron Stewart|3|0|2|5|
Kelly Miller|0|0|3|3|
Total | 138 | 25 | 14 |177

Defense|ES|PP|PK|Total
Dit Clapper|17|4|3|24|
Ebbie Goodfellow|17|3|3|23|
Herb Gardiner|15|0|4|19|
Rod Seiling|14|0|4|18|
Lennart Svedberg|14|3|0|17|
Glen Harmon|15|0|0|15|
Totals|92|10|14|116

Vs.​

The Belfast Giants​

(2000-2015)

General Manager:EagleBelfour
Head Coach: Ken Hitchcock

Joe Malone - Peter Stastny (A) - Ace Bailey
Anatoli Firsov - Joe Primeau - Claude Provost
Esa Tikkanen - Phil Goyette - Johnny Peirson
Billy Burch - Murray Oliver - Tim Kerr
Tumba Johansson
Marcel Bonin
Konstantin Loktev

Pierre Pilote (A) - Sylvio Mantha (C)
Babe Pratt - Vitaly Davydov
Phil Russell - Yuri Liapkin
Al Shields

Jacques Plante
Rogatien Vachon


Powerplay:
Joe Malone - Tim Kerr - Joe Primeau
Pierre Pilote - Yuri Liapkin

Anatoli Firsov - Peter Stastny - Ace Bailey
Babe Pratt - Sylvio Mantha

Penalty Kill:
Claude Provost - Joe Primeau
Babe Pratt - Sylvio Mantha
Jacques Plante

Esa Tikkanen- Murray Oliver
Pierre Pilote - Vitaly Davydov
Jacques Plante
​

Click to read more...

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Looking forward to it EB!

A quick look at our teams, I think you have a nice advantage in net and I have a nice advantage coaching.

In terms of top six firepower, I think I pull ahead. Bailey, Provost, and Primeau weren't as strong of scorers as some of their counterparts and I'll flesh that out later.

Defense is tough and will require a close look.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Top units VsX 7

Howe: 126
Stastny: 88.3
Kariya: 85.4
Kennedy 81.5
Bailey: 68.1

Joe Malone doesn't fit into VsX, but using seventieslord's Vs1 scores we can see Malone was one of the most prolific scorers of the pre-consolidation era

Top pre-1926 (or mostly pre-1926) forwards based on Vs1 (or VsX post-26)

7 year totals:

Russell Bowie 700
Newsy Lalonde 681
Joe Malone 657
Tommy Smith 650
Cy Denneny 641
Duke Keats 635
Cyclone Taylor 616
Frank Fredrickson 605

Malone is probably the second best scorer of anyone in this comparison, but he's competing with Howe who comes in first with the 2nd best VsX7 all-time behind Gretzky.

Stastny was the better scorer than Kennedy, but Kennedy brought more to the table in terms of defensive ability and physicality. He was also a strong playoff scorer:

Kennedy Playoff Point Finishes: 1 (1948), 2 (1945), 2 (1947), 2 (1949), 4 (1951)
Lead Team in Playoff scoring six times: 1945, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1954 (2 points), 1955 (4 points)

From here we get to the weakest forwards in the comparison in Kariya and Bailey. Bailey was certainly the better defensive player, but he wasn't much of a scorer. Here's what I said about him on a second line last year:

Bailey's offense is really weak for a scorer though. He has a nice peak season, but his scoring resume is really thin outside of it. He has a scoring title, two other top 10 seasons, and one finish in the 11-20 range. Bailey's offense dropped before the Shore incident as well. He finished 53rd and 59th in scoring the two seasons before having his career ended.

With how light his scoring resume was, and the fact that we can't simply chalk it up to the Shore incident, I think Bailey is overmatched here. I mean, I think Kennedy's regular season offensive resume is a little light, but Bailey is a ways behind the rest of the group. He doesn't have much in the way of a clutch playoff scoring resume either. He tied for the playoff lead in scoring in 1929 with 3 points in 4 games, but he has 4 points in the other 17 playoff games of his career.

Kariya's VsX7 puts him 14th all-time among LWers and his AST record of 3 1st Teams and 2 2nd Teams leaves him a good fit on a top line.
==========================================================================================================
I don't want to seem like I'm slanting this in favor of my players, but I think I have an edge at all three spots.

Kennedy trails Stastny by a few points in his regular season scoring prime, but when you consider his intangibles and playoff scoring you can see why he'd be preferable to Stastny (Kennedy ranked 15 spots ahead of Stastny in the HoH Centers project FWIW).

Howe is Howe so he's going to have the edge over every winger, and Bailey just can't hang compared to other top liners.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm very interested in seeing Belfast's plan for dealing with Howe in particular.

 

[jarek]

I would probably give the edge to Malone over Kariya. Otherwise, it seems spot on.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Second Units VsX7

Sittler - 85.7
Heatley - 81.5
Primeau - 74.8
Taylor - 70.2
Provost - 66.4

Sittler and Heatley are a cut ahead of the other three NHLers in this comparison.

Primeau was a good defensive player, but he gives a decent amount up scoring wise on Sittler. Primeau had the benefit of playing on the Kid Line with Conacher and Jackson, while being backed up King Clancy. Whereas Sittler had Salming and a few years with Lanny McDonald. Sittler led his team in scoring 7 times, by large margins at times - including a 30 point lead over his 2nd best teammate. I also dug up a few quotes in my Sittler bio talking about his aggressiveness and hardwork so he had some non-scoring skills as well.

Heatley and Firsov are the next best scorers on our lines, and there's no doubt Firsov has the edge. I like Heatley's offense as a second liner (he's 22nd in VsX7 for LWs), but Firsov is really slumming it here and clearly the best player out of this group.

Provost wasn't much of a scorer in his career, instead a strong defensive player on two separate dynasties. Taylor was a scoring winger riding shotgun to Dionne, who provides a power game to my unit. He was also a good defensive player, but clearly not Provost good.

As I said, Firsov is the best player on either line and here's a look at his domestic scoring the 60s courtesy of Sturm:

Crunching some Vs2 numbers from this data. First a couple of points:

- the 1960-61 to 1969-70 timeframe captures basically the entire peaks of the following players: Veniamin Alexandrov, Boris Mayorov, Alexander Almetov, Vyacheslav Starshinov and Anatoli Firsov. This is not perfect...Alexandrov and Mayorov both have single good seasons in the late 50s, and Firsov played well into the early 70s, though he was clearly past his peak (at least in terms of domestic league scoring) by then.

- this is meant only to be a Soviet-league-in-the-1960s-internal scoring comparison. Any resemblance to VsX numbers for post-consolidation NHL scoring is just a matter of formatting. I know that any intelligent person can understand this, but I want to make it completely clear.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alexandrov:
159, 100, 100, 95, 94, 88, 78
Total: 714
7-season average: 102

Firsov:
138, 100, 100, 94, 92, 83, 70
Total: 677
7-season average: 96.7

Mayorov:
107, 100, 100, 92, 90, 88, 81
Total: 658
7-season average: 94

Starshinov:
110, 108, 100, 87, 85, 84, 80
Total: 654
7-season average: 93.4

Almetov:
103, 100, 100, 84, 83, 69, 67
Total: 606
7-season average: 86.6

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes on the above:

- Alexandrov, Mayorov and Almetov benefit from somewhat softer competition over their first couple of peak seasons (Firsov didn't really start peaking until 1963-64), and Firsov and Starshinov are hurt by stiffer competition in their last couple of peak seasons when the K-P-M line stars started to peak.

- Alexandrov, Mayorov and Firsov are hurt by the lack of complete assist records, and by the generally quite stingy Soviet league assist tabulation, in general. Starshinov is clearly helped by these factors, while the effect on Almetov is probably neutral.

- so, in general, Firsov is disadvantaged twice by the above, and Almetov is advantaged, while the net effect on Alexandrov, Mayorov and Starshinov is roughly neutral, I'd guess.

Firsov also led the WC in scoring three times, and the Olympics once.
===========================================================
As it stands, I think Pittsburgh has the edge at center and Belfast at left wing. Provost was the best defensive player on either line, but Taylor accomplished more offensively while providing the strongest physical presence on either line.

Primeau and Provost were both praised for their defensive work, but was either much of a physical presence or cornerman?

Pittsburgh will have Taylor and Sittler providing the grit along the boards, but it seems Belfast will be more accomplishing this more by committee.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I would probably give the edge to Malone over Kariya. Otherwise, it seems spot on.

Oh I agree. I meant to say that comparing our best wingers (Howe vs Malone) and our second best wingers (Kariya vs Bailey) that Pittsburgh has the edge. Not both of my guys over Malone if that's how it read.

 

[jarek]

Oh I agree. I meant to say that comparing our best wingers (Howe vs Malone) and our second best wingers (Kariya vs Bailey) that Pittsburgh has the edge. Not both of my guys over Malone if that's how it read.

Ah OK. The way I read it, I thought you were saying Kariya is better than Malone.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I havn't been around in the past few days, but I'll make sure to pop around in the next day or two.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Sounds good, I'll continue by looking at our defensemen on the top unit.

AST records:
Pilote - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5
Clapper - 1, 1, 2, 4; also 2, 2 in RW AST voting
Goodfellow - 2, 2, 3, 5, 5; also 3, 4 in C AST voting
Mantha - 3, 4, 8, 2? (see below)

Hart Voting:
Clapper - 2, 3
Goodfellow - 1, 3, 4 (center)
Mantha - 4

On Mantha - he played some seasons before AST voting was officially recorded. We have unofficial results in 1927 and 1928. Mantha was not a factor in either of these votes - receiving no mention in the 10 defenders listed in 1927 and receiving only 1 vote in 1928.

In 1929, he finishes 5th in Hart Voting which was second among defenders. We could conclude this is a 2nd place finish in AST voting, but consider that Herb Gardiner finished on the Second Team (unclear if 3rd or 4th in voting) in the 1927 AST voting when he won the Hart.

Another example of this would be Goodfellow's Hart-winning year. He polled just behind Clapper with the L/R split D voting for 2nd in AST voting, yet Clapper came in 3rd in the Hart voting.

Don't get me wrong, I think at worst Mantha finishes 3rd or 4th in AST voting in 1929 if we had the results. I just want to point out 2nd in Hart among defenders doesn't necessarily translate to 2nd in AST voting.
==================================================================================================================================
Pilote is the best defender in this series. His record is superior to Clapper, who was a star forward early in his career adding to his AST resume.

Goodfellow has the edge between our #2 defenders. His record is superior despite switching between center and defense in his career. We have records (including unofficial ASTs in 1927 and 1928, and Hart in 1929) for all but the first three years of Mantha's career, and no indication he was a star at that point right? Considering this, the AST results we have, and Goodfellow's Hart record - I think Goodfellow is the superior player with a further gap than that between Pilote and Clapper.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

With that said, I think it's fair to point out Pilote may not be the best #1 defender to match up against Howe. Pilote wasn't renowned for physical play and had this to say about Howe:

Of course, Delvecchio didn't have to play against him. Pierre Pilote, the Chicago Black Hawks' all-star defenseman, did. "Nobody takes a chance with Gordie," Pilote stated, "because you never know what he can do to you. He plays the game for keeps. He doesn't expect you to take it easy on him, and he doesn't take it easy on you."

Cannibalizing a HT post from the HoH Defenders project to focus on a statistical breakdown of Pilote vs Howe in the playoffs...

Here is a look of how Pierre Pilote and Tim Horton did against big scorers (Howe, Beliveau, Hull, Bathgate) in the playoffs (data from HSP)...

I will list who they would be trying to shut down followed by that player's scoring line. If applicable I will then list how that same player did against other competition that playoff year.
...
Summary by Player Opponent
Pilote vs. Howe: 42Pts in 33GP (1.27ppg)
Horton vs. Howe: 22Pts in 19GP (1.16ppg)

Pilote vs. Beliveau: 18Pts in 18GP (1.00ppg)
Horton vs. Beliveau: 22Pts in 28GP (0.79ppg)

Horton vs. Hull: 13Pts in 12GP (1.08ppg)
Horton vs. Bathgate: 1G-2A-3Pts-6GP (0.50ppg)


Comparison by Same Season
3 times Pilote and Horton faced Howe the same playoff year
On average Howe scored 0.31 more ppg against Pilote in those years.
...

Final Summary
Horton beats out Pilote defensively vs. Howe by 0.11ppg and vs. Beliveau by 0.21ppg

Gordie's power seemed to have been too much for Pilote. A physical beast like Horton matching Howe fared better, and this matchup against Pilote could really help Pittsburgh's first unit.

 

[Sturminator]

Don't get me wrong, I think at worst Mantha finishes 3rd or 4th in AST voting in 1929 if we had the results. I just want to point out 2nd in Hart among defenders doesn't necessarily translate to 2nd in AST voting.

Clapper was also a lock for an all-star berth in 1930 had there been a team that season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Provost wasn't much of a scorer in his career, instead a strong defensive player on two separate dynasties. Taylor was a scoring winger riding shotgun to Dionne, who provides a power game to my unit. He was also a good defensive player, but clearly not Provost good.

Perhaps, but unless Provost got PP time during his entire prime (like Dave Taylor did), you can't use VsX to show this. Remembering of course that VsX was explicitly designed as a method to only be used for players whose real life roles were to be consistently on scoring lines.

Clapper was also a lock for an all-star berth in 1930 had there been a team that season.

Mostly definitely, but as a RW, not a D (as I'm sure you know, but just wanted to clarify).

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Perhaps, but unless Provost got PP time during his entire prime (like Dave Taylor did), you can't use VsX to show this. Remembering of course that VsX was explicitly designed as a method to only be used for players whose real life roles were to be consistently on scoring lines.

Fair enough, I'll do my best to look at this for Provost since there's no quick way to do so.

Hockey-reference lists PPGs from 1964 on, Provost scored 11 in 1965 which was 3rd in the league. He only has 2-3 in those other years, but he's ages 30-36.

overpass's collaboration charts breakdown special team points colloborations by year:
1956 - 3
1957 - 9
1958 - 6
1959 - 4
1960 - 2
1961 - 2
1962 - 20
1963 - 13

(These are kind of hard to explain, but they aren't his point totals. It is a a sum that includes a count for everytime Provost shared a point on the PP with a teammate. So in theory you could divide these by two if you pretended every PP point he recorded had a goalscorer, primary assist, and secondary assist.)

Anyway, the point is he was not a consistent power play scorer like Taylor. Both years Provost was a top 10 scorer he had a nice share of PP time, however.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Clapper was also a lock for an all-star berth in 1930 had there been a team that season.

Mostly definitely, but as a RW, not a D (as I'm sure you know, but just wanted to clarify).

Something I don't think I've pointed out was Clapper was praised defensively as a forward.

Bill Quackenbush spoke to this saying:

"I think you'll find Goodfellow made the adjustment to defense fairly early in his career," pointed out Quackenbush. "Again, in Clapper's case, he was defensive minded."

This is important to point out, as he wasn't a pure scorer while earning all-star berths as a winger. He'll be serving as my first unit's sweeper, and the knowledge of when to get back - that was evident in the beginning of his career - will enable him to find his opportunities to rush forward without losing sight of his defensive responsibilities. That balance makes my first unit all that more dynamic as the opposition can't sleep on him when Pittsburgh has possession, and he won't kill the unit when he does jump up.

 

[Sturminator]

Something I don't think I've pointed out was Clapper was praised defensively as a forward.

In Clapper's two official all-star seasons at wing, he beat out other good defensive RWs (Bailey in 1931 and Aurie in 1935) in the all-star voting despite the fact that they outscored him by a good bit in those seasons.

 

[Dreakmur]

With that said, I think it's fair to point out Pilote may not be the best #1 defender to match up against Howe.

You sure about that? I thought Pilote was very physical.

 

[Sturminator]

Both years Provost was a top 10 scorer he had a nice share of PP time, however.

There's also the quote Eagle, himself, posted a few years back:

I got all those goals, but my checking was lousy. I'd rather check more and score less. It's better for the team.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

You sure about that? I thought Pilote was very physical.

Was he? I never thought that was part of his game.

Looking at his bio there are a few quotes and he does have a ton of PIM FWIW. I wasn't aware of that.

Either way, he did seem to struggle against Howe.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It should be noted that Pilote's main partner, Moose Vasko, played the left side, so as far as one-on-one battles with Howe, Vasko likely saw a lot more of them than Pilote.

I've lent it out so I can't give you any quotes, but I've read Pilote's book and he did have a physical/nasty element to his game. Not saying that means he can handle Howe, but he's no softie for sure

 

[jarek]

In regards to this series and handling Howe, I could see the coach swapping Pilote and Mantha on the top defense pair, leaving a trifecta of Tikkanen-Mantha-Plante as a stonewall against Howe, and I think it would be a pretty effective one.

 

[Sturminator]

Pittsburgh wins in 7
- Three stars: Howe, Plante, Clapper

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Excellent work EB

 

[EagleBelfour]

Talk about being late to the party! When we were talking before the draft of times when I just couldn't be around, well that was one of those time! A lot of my plate, so hopefully no one is too mad if I didn't have the chance to participate to the discussion.

Congratulation to Scuderi. Two pretty good teams, but I think the best one went through. To win, the axe Tikkanen, Mantha-Pilote, Plante would of need to be impenetrable all series against Gordie Howe, which is a mighty task. Not impossible! ... But very difficult.

Good luck next round