Post-Game Talk: Remember that winning streak we had?

[Frk It]

Oiler fan in peace.
Always asking opposing teams what they think of us now. Do we look better? I think our size is great, lines are balanced and our goaltending is great. The defence is still a work in progress but much better then last year. I feel we are a power play QB away from a powerful team

Much more balanced, much better team defense. Thought Larsson was solid, made several great defensive plays.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Oiler fan in peace.
Always asking opposing teams what they think of us now. Do we look better? I think our size is great, lines are balanced and our goaltending is great. The defence is still a work in progress but much better then last year. I feel we are a power play QB away from a powerful team

I thought you guys looked legitimately good and was impressed with your defense of all things. You certainly gave us fits in the neutral zone and easily moved the puck through our fore check. These are clearly two teams heading in different directions.

 

[ap3x]

Saw way more games than the seasons before - pure interest - and was more often than not pretty impressed with the step forward you took so far. It's still early in the season but until now you're looking way better than I expected you to. Curious how you develop as the season goes on. How you deal with losing streaks and so on.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

What if I told you all that......we won 6 games in a row and lost 6 games in a row and that its not the end of the world? Would everyone be blowing up if we won/loss/won/loss/won/loss etc.

if you took away ALL context, opinions and thoughts of every hockey mind outside the organization for the past 3 years plus then no, nobody would "be blowing up..."

 

[HisNoodliness]

Oiler fan in peace.
Always asking opposing teams what they think of us now. Do we look better? I think our size is great, lines are balanced and our goaltending is great. The defence is still a work in progress but much better then last year. I feel we are a power play QB away from a powerful team

Honestly, McDavid is just so good that you guys are bound to be good eventually. Your fowrward group is deep and talented. Anyone can make an exciting play at any moment. I think Larsson was a good pickup and your defense is much improved. Now I think the defense needs some experience and time to grow more than anything. Klefbom Larsson and Nurse is a good D core to build around though. That being said you're still a couple of years away IMO and I worry about the cap coming down on you hard when Lucic (I hate that you guys signed him) is no longer effective and your ELC/RFAs become UFAs that want money. Still you should be excited for your team much moreso than I'm excited about the wings haha . Have a good season

 

[Run the Jewels]

Oiler fan in peace.
Always asking opposing teams what they think of us now. Do we look better? I think our size is great, lines are balanced and our goaltending is great. The defence is still a work in progress but much better then last year. I feel we are a power play QB away from a powerful team

Yeah, I would agree with that. Get one good offensive d-man who can QB the power play and you are pretty well set. The most important thing is the young guys buying into playing team defense and they were doing a great job last night.

 

[jkutswings]

Again, what's the rationale behind Bertuzzi over Mantha?

We lose a top-9 scorer so we call up a 4th liner to replace him when we have a top-9 prospect who is waiting in the wings?

Is Bertuzzi engaged to anybody who knows Ken Holland?

 

[jkutswings]

What if I told you all that......we won 6 games in a row and lost 6 games in a row and that its not the end of the world? Would everyone be blowing up if we won/loss/won/loss/won/loss etc.

I would say that the team still has very few inspiring players, and even fewer reasons to watch, since they're neither anywhere near a contender, nor admitting they need to rebuild to become one.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[jkutswings]

We acquired talent on positions of need at the draft. I think Wings fans of all people should understand that it's not always the prospects that are NHL ready the fastest that end up the best players. At the same time as most people seem to understand that we need elite players, so many are screaming for the 'quick fix'. I couldn't disagree with you more that we need to go after #2-3 d-men. The next Lidstrom definitely is never walking through the door, but a Duncan Keith or Drew Doughty or Shea Weber definitely does more for a defense than any amount of #2-3s can.


He's doing very well. But we don't need a d-man that simply does well. Like mentioned, if we drafted him he'd probably be in GR. Because right now we don't need a guy that can be a solid #4-5, even if he is only 18.

Everything you're saying fits with the need for a full and long-term rebuild, which the current regime is openly against. So which is it? Bring in veterans for the now, or draft projects for the future? Or continue to do both halfheartedly, and continue to regress towards failure?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Everything you're saying fits with the need for a full and long-term rebuild, which the current regime is openly against. So which is it? Bring in veterans for the now, or draft projects for the future? Or continue to do both halfheartedly, and continue to regress towards failure?

The chips will fall where they may. I seriously doubt Kenny starts trading prospects and picks for rentals to make the playoffs anymore. But I also don't think he would be a seller at the deadline unless we're way out of it. The veterans are there to shelter and support our younger players and avoid rushing prospects into the NHL, picks like Cholowski/Hronek indicate management and scouts are going for high-end potential over NHL-readiness when drafting.. these are signs that they are not half-hearting the rebuild. They're not trying to rush it.
The rebuild may not fit the mold of the "blow it up" strategy but regardless it's happening and Wings fans are showing their extreme lack of patience by doing things like complaining about Chychrun being passed over when we're probably 5+ years away from knowing if that choice was good or not.

 

[Dotter]

but regardless it's happening and Wings fans are showing their extreme lack of patience by doing things like complaining about Chychrun being passed over when we're probably 5+ years away from knowing if that choice was good or not.

I really don't get the Chychrun outrage. People he said he "fell on our laps, and we failed to get him" like he was the end all, be all dman in the draft. Yet Wings opt out and pick up this lesser unknown guy (which DRWs have a history of taking less knowns, see Lidstrom, Datsyuk).

But for some reason, people are already writing off this Cholowski kid. Even though it seems he really fits the bill better than Chychrun does. Reading how Cholowski's development camp notes, it seems like the organization feels like they really found something special.

At this point, I think you can flip a coin on who will be the better player. I think DRWs think they have the better kid (that fits their needs); passing, skating, smooth, smart.

Again, I just don't get the Chychrun outrage. Wings don't need another 4-6 dman. I think Wings think Cholo has higher upside.

 

[Frk It]

I really don't get the Chychrun outrage. People he said he "fell on our laps, and we failed to get him" like he was the end all, be all dman in the draft. Yet Wings opt out and pick up this lesser unknown guy (which DRWs have a history of taking less knowns, see Lidstrom, Datsyuk).

But for some reason, people are already writing off this Cholowski kid. Even though it seems he really fits the bill better than Chychrun does. Reading how Cholowski's development camp notes, it seems like the organization feels like they really found something special.

At this point, I think you can flip a coin on who will be the better player. I think DRWs think they have the better kid (that fits their needs); passing, skating, smooth, smart.

Again, I just don't get the Chychrun outrage. Wings don't need another 4-6 dman. I think Wings think Cholo has higher upside.

Well, everyone is going to have different opinions on this.

It is going to be years before we know if we made a bad decision or a good decision. We will know very little about Cholowski before he gets to the AHL, and then the ultimate test will be obviously the NHL. For example, Smith and Jensen were better college players than Dekeyser, but Dekeyser has been a better pro. Cholowski has a lot of developing physically to do, so I doubt we see him in GR for at least 2 more years, and then NHL probably 4-5 years.

So part of it is probably folks are impatient and don't want to wait to see what we have there. And then Chcyhrun went ahead and made an NHL team at 18, which doesn't help.

But I personally think Chychrun was over-scouted and I don't think the reasons he fell are legitimate reasons. But that's just me and I understand those that disagree. So I do not like the decision. I also typically do not like late risers, which is what Cholowski was in a big way. There were some defenseman left that I liked over him, including Girard and Clauge who have lit up their respective Junior leagues so far.

Ultimately we will have to wait and see how everything plays out. But don't forget about Hronek in all this.

 

[Heaton]

Again, I just don't get the Chychrun outrage. Wings don't need another 4-6 dman. I think Wings think Cholo has higher upside.

It's because Chychrun has already shown he's able to play in this league and put up some numbers. It's a small sample size, but more than we've seen in any of our young defensemen.

I think the chances that Cholowski works out and is better than Chychrun are just as good as Cholowski being on the same level as XO and Marchenko. I realize this comes off as being unbearably cynical, but after the past 20 years there's not much reason not to be.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

It's not just Chyruchin either, it's Fabbro too. We could have had either, but instead we dumped Datsyuk's contract to plug the roster with more dead cap.

 

[Dotter]

It's because Chychrun has already shown he's able to play in this league and put up some numbers. It's a small sample size, but more than we've seen in any of our young defensemen.

I think the chances that Cholowski works out and is better than Chychrun are just as good as Cholowski being on the same level as XO and Marchenko. I realize this comes off as being unbearably cynical, but after the past 20 years there's not much reason not to be.

Under Jim Nill, I would get it. But under Tyler Wright, I think since he did such a good job with Larkin, that I think it's worth the pick to see how Cholo turns out. Looks like Nelson and Jiri Fischer are really high on Cholo, too.

Chychrun fell. Why? I have no idea. But the sleeper pick makes me feel more cozy. Like DRWs think they 'nailed it' again knowing something other scouts just didn't know/see.

Like I said, Wings don't really need an 5 or 6 dman. They need a top pairing stud. I think they think Chychrun will be a solid redundant bottom 3 dman, but think Cholo has potential to being something great. Wings need something great.

Bottom 3 guys can be had on the FA market. Maybe guys like Cholo may have potential of becoming can't be had because maybe they think he is a guy you could build a team around.

All I know is I feel like Wings think they have something very special with Cholo and I feel like they have a devilish smirk whenever they think about how they snatched him with the 20th while no other team/organization/scout had a clue on what just happened.

 

[blupye*]

Thx for the reply's Detroit fans. I agree with everyone on Larsson. We paid a stiff price getting him but he makes our D so much stable. He is making Klefbom better as well. Both of them are signed to 7 yr, 4.2 per year. Great contracts. Kris Russell (didn't play yesterday) was another great signing. It has been a very frustrating 10 years (more if you count back to the 90's), but I think we can now see the forest thru the trees

 

[Frk It]

Under Jim Nill, I would get it. But under Tyler Wright, I think since he did such a good job with Larkin, that I think it's worth the pick to see how Cholo turns out. Looks like Nelson and Jiri Fischer are really high on Cholo, too.

Chychrun fell. Why? I have no idea. But the sleeper pick makes me feel more cozy. Like DRWs think they 'nailed it' again knowing something other scouts just didn't know/see.

Like I said, Wings don't really need an 5 or 6 dman. They need a top pairing stud. I think they think Chychrun will be a solid redundant bottom 3 dman, but think Cholo has potential to being something great. Wings need something great.

Bottom 3 guys can be had on the FA market. Maybe guys like Cholo may have potential of becoming can't be had because maybe they think he is a guy you could build a team around.

All I know is I feel like Wings think they have something very special with Cholo and I feel like they have a devilish smirk whenever they think about how they snatched him with the 20th while no other team/organization/scout had a clue on what just happened.

Tyler Wright, Fischer, and Nelson liking the pick they made just 6 months ago doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean you would hope they would for any pick, right? I like the positive comments as well, but it doesn't validate the pick necessarily.

It's how they feel about the pick 2, 3, 4 years from now that matters. It's if he can put on weight and continue to make strides in the direction he is going. I'm sure the front office felt good about McCollum, Kindl, and Smith 6 months from when they were taken as well.

Also Tyler Wright has a good track record drafting forwards, but not much to speak of with drafting defenseman. So while it's good that he is not Nill, he has something to prove still in that regard.

 

[Winger98]

Fischer wasn't getting 20 minutes a night when he was up with Bowman as a 19 yr old. For all of the talk about Chychrun being only a 4-6 D right now are missing on how that likely reflects well for where he will find himself in two, three, four years. Right now Cholo isn't worth nearly as much as a guy of the same age who is proving to be an NHL regular. It doesn't say that Cholo won't get there, or surpass him, but right now...Chychrun is looking like a helluva pick.

 

[Heaton]

Under Jim Nill, I would get it. But under Tyler Wright, I think since he did such a good job with Larkin, that I think it's worth the pick to see how Cholo turns out. Looks like Nelson and Jiri Fischer are really high on Cholo, too.

Chychrun fell. Why? I have no idea. But the sleeper pick makes me feel more cozy. Like DRWs think they 'nailed it' again knowing something other scouts just didn't know/see.

Like I said, Wings don't really need an 5 or 6 dman. They need a top pairing stud. I think they think Chychrun will be a solid redundant bottom 3 dman, but think Cholo has potential to being something great. Wings need something great.

Bottom 3 guys can be had on the FA market. Maybe guys like Cholo may have potential of becoming can't be had because maybe they think he is a guy you could build a team around.

All I know is I feel like Wings think they have something very special with Cholo and I feel like they have a devilish smirk whenever they think about how they snatched him with the 20th while no other team/organization/scout had a clue on what just happened.

Tyler Wright, Fischer, and Nelson liking the pick they made just 6 months ago doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean you would hope they would for any pick, right? I like the positive comments as well, but it doesn't validate the pick necessarily.

It's how they feel about the pick 2, 3, 4 years from now that matters. It's if he can put on weight and continue to make strides in the direction he is going. I'm sure the front office felt good about McCollum, Kindl, and Smith 6 months from when they were taken as well.

Also Tyler Wright has a good track record drafting forwards, but not much to speak of with drafting defenseman. So while it's good that he is not Nill, he has something to prove still in that regard.

Am I missing something? Are there quotes or scouting reports that show that Cholowski is looking like a franchise defenseman?

 

[Frk It]

Am I missing something? Are there quotes or scouting reports that show that Cholowski is looking like a franchise defenseman?

Believe Dotter was referring to some of this commentary:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/06/red_wings_see_top_pick_dennis.html

Actually, some comments in this article I had not seen previously.

 

[Dotter]

Am I missing something? Are there quotes or scouting reports that show that Cholowski is looking like a franchise defenseman?

Wright said he's the complete package, a guy you put in all situations, elite thinker and said he was the best skater of all defensemen in the draft.

He went on to say he's mobile, he's got good puck skills, he can move pucks very well. He can jump into the rush, he can defend plays in all situations.

He didn't say he was an elite franchise defenseman. Nobody said that about Chycrun or Fabbro either. But Wings did say Cholo was #1 on their draft board. And when they saw they he was going to drop to them, they were happy. Not only were they happy, but they got the kid they exactly wanted + a free 2nd round pick while dumping Datsyuk's salary.

That's what I got from it anyhoo

 

[Dotter]

Also wanted to add that I don't think Wright and the Wings weren't considering Chychrun. I got the impression Fabbro might have been their alternative choice.

 

[jkutswings]

Right, but when the franchise hasn't drafted a very good defenseman in over a decade, pardon my skepticism regarding their praise of their own work.

I know there are new people involved, and Cholo still might turn out to be very good, but unless people around the league start chiming in on the kid, I don't put any stock in the internal comments, at least this early.

 

[Reddwit]

Right, but when the franchise hasn't drafted a very good defenseman in over a decade, pardon my skepticism regarding their praise of their own work.

I know there are new people involved, and Cholo still might turn out to be very good, but unless people around the league start chiming in on the kid, I don't put any stock in the internal comments, at least this early.

I understand where you're coming from, but it's not enough to say "there are new people involved." The whole braintrust of the scouts is different. TW was a Red Wings RIVAL scout literally two weeks before he was named head scout. It's not like this is some recycled/upcycled brass. Truly foreign eyes were brought in. It's like saying we should blame Babcock for Dave Lewis' mistakes.

Second, the quality of defenseman we've drafted says little considering the quantity. Again, that's the fault of different eyes from the ones we have now but also a question for management in their discretion. A GM or AGM can always demand that a head scout draft for position. We should've drafted more D over the past two decades; we don't know how they'd turn out but more kicks at the can....

 

[Reddwit]

Fischer wasn't getting 20 minutes a night when he was up with Bowman as a 19 yr old. For all of the talk about Chychrun being only a 4-6 D right now are missing on how that likely reflects well for where he will find himself in two, three, four years. Right now Cholo isn't worth nearly as much as a guy of the same age who is proving to be an NHL regular. It doesn't say that Cholo won't get there, or surpass him, but right now...Chychrun is looking like a helluva pick.

Why use Fischer?

Fischer was great in a tiny, low-pressure role as a 19 year old.

Then he ****ing sucked, in some part due to that M/ACL sprain/tear (can't remember), for the next 4-5 years.

Then, in the season where he finally looked back to form, the fall-out happened, and he never played again.

Just a terrible comparison all-around. We might as well harken back to Mike Babcock calling for a 19 year-old Kindl to make the team out of camp as well.