Red Fisher Conference Finals: Macon Whoopee vs. New Jersey Swamp Devils

[Sturminator]

MACON WHOOPEE

Head Coach: Joel Quenneville
Captain: Nicklas Lidstrom
Assistant Captains: Sidney Crosby, Derian Hatcher

Dickie Moore - Nels Stewart - Phil Watson
Craig Ramsay - Sidney Crosby (A) - Alexander Maltsev
Harry Watson - Fleming Mackell - Danny Gare
Jaroslav Jirik - Harry Westwick - Bob Nystrom

Nicklas Lidstrom (C) - Larry Murphy
Derian Hatcher (A) - Frank Patrick
Al Iafrate - Jamie Macoun

Roy Worters
John Ross Roach


PP1: Nicklas Lidstrom - Larry Murphy - Dickie Moore - Sidney Crosby - Nels Stewart (net presence)
PP2: Al Iafrate - Frank Patrick - Jaroslav Jirik - Phil Watson - Alex Maltsev

PK1: Nicklas Lidstrom - Derian Hatcher - Fleming Mackell - Craig Ramsay
PK2: Larry Murphy - Jamie Macoun - Harry Westwick - Phil Watson

Extra: Neal Broten, Andre Dupont, Vsevolod Bobrov​

Vs.​

New Jersey Swamp Devils

Head Coach = Hap Day
Assistant Coach = Frank Patrick

Aurele Joliat - Cyclone Taylor - Bryan Hextall, Sr
Tommy Smith - Eric Lindros - Vic Stasiuk
Johnny Gottselig (A) - Neil Colville - Wilf Paiement
Bob Davidson - Red Sullivan - Rejean Houle

Slava Fetisov (C) - Vladimir Lutchenko
Jim Schoenfeld (A) - Harry Cameron
Wade Redden - Al Arbour

Hugh Lehman
Pekka Lindmark​

Spares: Tom Anderson (LW/D), Charlie Sands (C/RW), Clem Loughlin, D

PP1: Smith - Taylor - Hextall - Cameron - Fetisov
PP2: Joliat - Lindros - Gottselig - Colville - Lutchenko

PK1: Sullivan - Gottselig - Schoenfeld - Arbour
PK2: Colville - Davidson - Fetisov - Lutchenko
PK3: Houle - Paiement (Houle can play C)

Click to read more...

 

[markrander87]

Best of luck TDMM (but not too much luck) I really feel as though this is my year to take you down.

I would like to point out I finished first in the conference, so Macon will have the home ice advantage.

To start the conversation.....that 2nd line is very dependent on the Big E. Is he the guy you want to lean on in the Conference finals?

Also i'm not sure if it has been discussed yet, but that entire first line of Aurele Joliat, Cyclone Taylor & Bryan Hextall both seem to have quite a drop off is playoff scoring.

This Swamp Devil team appears to be peppered with players who fall off during crunch time in the playoffs.

 

[Dreakmur]

Also i'm not sure if it has been discussed yet, but that entire first line of Aurele Joliat, Cyclone Taylor & Bryan Hextall both seem to have quite a drop off is playoff scoring.

This Swamp Devil team appears to be peppered with players who fall off during crunch time in the playoffs.

This again? Every player in your top six sees a drop in raw production during the playoffs, even Dickie Moore. Are they all bad performers too?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This again? Every player in your top six sees a drop in raw production during the playoffs, even Dickie Moore. Are they all bad performers too?

Indeed, Nels Stewart sees a sharp decline in playoff production even for a player in his era - the largest decline in playoff production of any star player of his era, I believe.

Anyway, without going through it in detail, Dickie Moore probably has the best playoff record of anyone in either of our top 6s (he sure was in a favorable situation on the late 50s super-Habs, though) and Nels Stewart probably has the worst. For what that matters - I don't think either team's top 6 is loaded with clutch players or chokers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Coaching and goaltending

Coaching is a slight to moderate advantage NJ. Day was clearly the best coach of his era, and his teams regularly did better in the playoffs than you would think just looking at their rosters compared to the rosters of the other top teams. I think Quenneville has a very real shot at ending up being considered the clear best coach of the current era, but he's not there yet.

Goaltending is probably close to even. I can't think of two more comparable players than Lehman and Worters. Worters probably had the higher peak in the late 20s when he was racking up Hart votes, but Lehman was consistently a star for 2 decades (11 1st Team All Star PCHA nods, and he was a star before he joined the PCHA at the age of 26), and he seems to have been talked about as a star after he retired moreso than Worters was. (Of note, when there was a discussion in the 1930s as to whether Charlie Gardiner was the best goalie of all time, Vezina and Lehman (not Benedict, Worters, Hainsworth, or Holmes) were the guys he was compared to. Some of that is probably homerism for the old western leagues, but it still shows how highly regarded Lehman was by people who watched him play.

 

[markrander87]

This again? Every player in your top six sees a drop in raw production during the playoffs, even Dickie Moore. Are they all bad performers too?

Indeed, Nels Stewart sees a sharp decline in playoff production even for a player in his era - the largest decline in playoff production of any star player of his era, I believe.

Anyway, without going through it in detail, Dickie Moore probably has the best playoff record of anyone in either of our top 6s (he sure was in a favorable situation on the late 50s super-Habs, though) and Nels Stewart probably has the worst. For what that matters - I don't think either team's top 6 is loaded with clutch players or chokers.

As a collective group, who would you say has the better playoff resumes? Is this even a debate?

 

[markrander87]

The best player in the series is easily Nicklas Lidstrom. He will be used to match up against New Jerseys top line?

How does New Jersey plan on handling Macons two headed monster?

Also not so fast with the goaltending. Worters is a clear plus for Macon ranked 6 spots ahead of Lehman by the panel:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1270035

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The best player in the series is easily Nicklas Lidstrom. He will be used to match up against New Jerseys top line?

How does New Jersey plan on handling Macons two headed monster?

Also not so fast with the goaltending. Worters is a clear plus for Macon ranked 6 spots ahead of Lehman by the panel:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1270035

Yeah... the gap between Lidstrom and Fetisov isn't very big at all, though it is there in my opinion. There's a group of older posters on the HOH board who have said Fetisov was a Bourque-level player, just with less longevity, and there are multiple quotes in his profile about how he was widely considered the best defenseman in the world in the early 1980s, while some considered him the best non-Gretzky players in the world. Anyway, I think Lidstrom has an advantage over Fetisov for longevity as a top player, as well, but that's the extent of his advantage.

Again, the reason Lehman fell so far below Worters on the HOH Top goaltenders list was because several posters left him off their ballots - 1 by accident as he told us later, a few most likely because they saw the PCHA as minor league like the WHA (as a few posters convinced themselves during the discussion). Anyway, if you think that a few posters voting against Lehman because they thought the PCHA was a minor league makes him a worse player, that's your call, but I'd prefer to focus on what these guys actually did. Do you have an argument for Worters over Lehman that doesn't fall back on the crutch of the HOH list, which is just an average of the opinions of the people who happened to participate? Again, when Charlie Gardiner was being compared to the best goalies of all time in the early 1930s, they were comparing him to Vezina and Lehman, not Worters.

____________

As for handling your "two-headed monster," I would say that it starts with NJ's centers - 1 excellent defensively (Sullivan), two at least somewhat strong defensively (Taylor and Colville), and 1 responsible (Lindros). Where does Macon's defense from the center ice position come from?

As for usage, the Lindros line is used in offensive situations, the Sullivan line in defensive ones, and the Taylor and Colville lines are used in all situations.

The fact that both of Macon's lines consist of strong duos with weak third wheels makes them easier to defend. Moore-Stewart and Crosby-Maltsev are the strong duos, but each line has something of an anchor as a 3rd wheel - Phil Watson, a playmaking center stuck at right wing, and Harry Watson, whose offense is weaker than anyone in NJ's Top NINE. More on that later.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just realized that Sturm is using my specialized lineup from last round that I made to deal with Bobby Hull, rather than my standard one. Anyway, I edited the OP to how NJ's lineup should look - two-way 1st and 3rd lines, a crash and bang 2nd line, and a shutdown 4th line.

 

[Sturminator]

As for handling your "two-headed monster," I would say that it starts with NJ's centers - 1 excellent defensively (Sullivan), two at least somewhat strong defensively (Taylor and Colville), and 1 responsible (Lindros).

I'm not sure how much defensive play from center matters in a matchup against Nels Stewart. It is the wings on that line who will handle the puckcarrying and playmaking duties. Stopping Stewart likely falls on the New Jersey defensemen.

 

[Sturminator]

I think who wins this series is going to come down largely to whether or not New Jersey can effectively check the Stewart line. Much like the other conference finals series, this one is also something of a replay of the last round for New Jersey, who faced a vaguely similar two-headed monster in Halifax in the divisional finals. The Devils are going to win the matchup of 1st units (just assuming that the Crosby line is in fact the Macon 1st unit here), so the big question here is how much separation Macon can create in the matchup of 2nd units. A few assorted comments:

- I don't believe that checking centers will make an appreciable dent in Nels Stewart's production. This is the upside of Stewart's game, I suppose. Because all he did was camp out in front of the goal and spit tobacco at people, you can't really "hound him up-and-down the ice" because he didn't go up and down the ice. The weight of containing Stewart looks like it will fall on New Jersey's defensemen, which presents something of a conundrum.

Do the Devils match the Fetisov pairing against the Stewart line, and let Fetisov struggle with Stewart in the crease? This might be the right move, but it may also result in Fetisov having to play conservatively in order to contain the cherry-picking Stewart. Lutchenko wasn't especially offensive-minded at even strength, so if Fetisov isn't pushing the play, the puckmoving may bog down somewhat. I think it would be unwise to leave Lutchenko to battle with Old Poison.

Or does New Jersey match the Schoenfeld pairing against Stewart, and let Jim and Nels battle it out? This would seem to make sense in terms of play style in the matchup as Schoenfeld is the type of defenseman you want out there against Nels, but it is a mismatch in terms of talent. Schoenfeld is a good #4, but he's not a good matchup with Stewart, overall, because Nels is simply in a different league. I'm honestly not sure which way I'd go if I were running the Devils.

- addendum to the above: will New Jersey try to shadow Dickie Moore with Houle? Will it work? Houle was a fine shadow, but gritty two-way players like Moore are difficult to check, as they tend to have rather large bags of tricks and don't depend so much on skating with the puck in open ice.

- coaching is a small advantage to New Jersey. To the extent that matchups matter in this series, I'd expect Day to get them a bit more often than Q, although Macon has home ice, so that probably makes this fairly even, overall.

- I'd probably give Macon a small advantage in goal simply because I think Worters' incomplete career as a postseason goalie is stronger than Lehman's fairly poor one.

- Craig Ramsay seems somewhat wasted at even strength in this series. I can't see him making a big difference against any of New Jersey's RWs, all of whom are quite physical.

 

[markrander87]

You said it yourself that Mackell was a plus player defensively:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32295815&postcount=231

If he can handle Jean Beliveau he can most certainly handle Eric Lindros. Also regarding Lindros Derian Hatcher is a perfect guy to match up against the BIG E's size.

As mentioned Macon will be using this top 9:

Dickie Moore - Nels Stewart - Phil Watson
Craig Ramsay - Sidney Crosby (A) - Alexander Maltsev
Harry Watson - Fleming Mackell - Danny Gare

Our top line will be out against New Jerseys 3rd defensive pairing as much as possible. Moore and Stewart will punish Wade Redden down low and in front of the net. (looks like Sturm beat me to the punch)

Our 2nd line will be used with Nicklas Lidstrom (as last series) against New Jerseys top line (and only scoring threat). The speed and puck possession game will help slow down their top line.

Our 3rd line will be matched up against New Jerseys 2nd line. Mackell as well as the size of Harry Watson and Derian Hatcher will be more then enough to focus on Lindros (the only thing resembling an offensive player on that 2nd line).

Again, you can come up with any excuse Macon has the edge in the goaltending department as well as the top pairing.

 

[markrander87]

Do the Devils match the Fetisov pairing against the Stewart line, and let Fetisov struggle with Stewart in the crease? This might be the right move, but it may also result in Fetisov having to play conservatively in order to contain the cherry-picking Stewart. Lutchenko wasn't especially offensive-minded at even strength, so if Fetisov isn't pushing the play, the puckmoving may bog down somewhat. I think it would be unwise to leave Lutchenko to battle with Old Poison.

Or does New Jersey match the Schoenfeld pairing against Stewart, and let Jim and Nels battle it out? This would seem to make sense in terms of play style in the matchup as Schoenfeld is the type of defenseman you want out there against Nels, but it is a mismatch in terms of talent. Schoenfeld is a good #4, but he's not a good matchup with Stewart, overall, because Nels is simply in a different league. I'm honestly not sure which way I'd go if I were running the Devils.

Thank you for weighing in Sturm:

As you mention below, Macon has the home ice advantage. We have to keep in mind Coach Q will be able to dictate the matchups 4/7 games.

Even when New Jersey does have last change, who will handle Nels Stewart? Like you mentioned if it is Fetisov, we will be a huge decrease in the rest of his game offensively. I can't see anybody on that 2nd or 3rd pairing being able to handle Stewart either.

If New Jersey matches their 1st pairing against Nels, who will handle the speed of Crosby and Maltsev? Are any of his defesneman especially noted for their foot speed?

- Craig Ramsay seems somewhat wasted at even strength in this series. I can't see him making a big difference against any of New Jersey's RWs, all of whom are quite physical.

Long story short....Ramsays job will be Forecheck/backcheck/paycheck.

Ramsay will be the glue that holds Crosby and Maltsev together. He'll be first in the forecheck creating turnovers from opponents defesneman that Crosby/Maltsev will capitalize on. He'll be the defensive conscious of the line helping to decrease the amount of fast break goals from New Jerseys line. He also was well known for sticking up for his teammates which is exactly what Crosby/Maltsev need.

 

[Sturminator]

If New Jersey matches their 1st pairing against Nels, who will handle the speed of Crosby and Maltsev? Are any of his defesneman especially noted for their foot speed?

Harry Cameron was an excellent skater.

edit: are you moving Ramsay up to the Crosby line? Do you want me to edit the OP?

 

[markrander87]

edit: are you moving Ramsay up to the Crosby line? Do you want me to edit the OP?

Yes I am, please edit the OP.

 

[Sturminator]

Yes I am, please edit the OP.

Done. I guess the idea behind the switch is to use Ramsay as just sort of the general defensive conscience of the line rather than as a matchup piece against any of New Jersey's forwards? That makes sense, though it does leave the Crosby line fairly soft. Not sure if New Jersey has the right personnel to punish that softness, though.

edit: I guess Ramsay is going to be the guy following the check into the zone in the typical center's role on the Crosby line (I assume that was also Watson's role beforehand). I think he's fine doing that and wings can certainly take that job, but you're definitely going to want to avoid matching up with the Lindros line.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You said it yourself that Mackell was a plus player defensively:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32295815&postcount=231

If he can handle Jean Beliveau he can most certainly handle Eric Lindros. Also regarding Lindros Derian Hatcher is a perfect guy to match up against the BIG E's size.

As mentioned Macon will be using this top 9:

Dickie Moore - Nels Stewart - Phil Watson
Craig Ramsay - Sidney Crosby (A) - Alexander Maltsev
Harry Watson - Fleming Mackell - Danny Gare

Our top line will be out against New Jerseys 3rd defensive pairing as much as possible. Moore and Stewart will punish Wade Redden down low and in front of the net. (looks like Sturm beat me to the punch)

Our 2nd line will be used with Nicklas Lidstrom (as last series) against New Jerseys top line (and only scoring threat). The speed and puck possession game will help slow down their top line.

Our 3rd line will be matched up against New Jerseys 2nd line. Mackell as well as the size of Harry Watson and Derian Hatcher will be more then enough to focus on Lindros (the only thing resembling an offensive player on that 2nd line).

Again, you can come up with any excuse Macon has the edge in the goaltending department as well as the top pairing.

There's a big difference between being a "plus player defensively" and being anything special at it. IMO, Cyclone Taylor and Neil Colville both have better established defensive games than MacKell.

Since you're linking to my old MacKell bio - don't you think it's pretty telling that I spent hours going through google archives for my Fleming MacKell bio and only found one single reference to him being used in a defensive role at even strength in one single game: "Beliveau looked tired and his check, Fleming MacKell, came up with a fine game and had the big guy well covered." That's it. Nothing about whether it was a regular occurrence, nothing about whether Beliveau would have eaten MacKell alive if he wasn't "tired." I used MacKell on my 4th line that year because I just couldn't justify his defensive game as strong enough to be my primary checker.

I also don't know what you hope to accomplish by putting Ramsey next to Crosby and Maltsev, other than making an incredibly soft line. Maltsev was known to struggle with physical play and I've seen people say the difference between Bob Gainey and Craig Ramsey is that Ramsey struggled with physical forwards in the playoffs.... and Bryan Hextall was mega-physical!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thank you for weighing in Sturm:

As you mention below, Macon has the home ice advantage. We have to keep in mind Coach Q will be able to dictate the matchups 4/7 games.

Even when New Jersey does have last change, who will handle Nels Stewart? Like you mentioned if it is Fetisov, we will be a huge decrease in the rest of his game offensively. I can't see anybody on that 2nd or 3rd pairing being able to handle Stewart either.

If New Jersey matches their 1st pairing against Nels, who will handle the speed of Crosby and Maltsev? Are any of his defesneman especially noted for their foot speed?

Slava Fetisov and Jim Schoenfeld were both quite physically strong. I drafted Schoenfeld in particular to add some muscle to my defense.

Harry Cameron was an excellent skater.

So was Slava Fetisov - he's a dman without any weaknesses in skill set (I said during assassinations that probably not being able to play RD is a weakness, but he's not doing that here).

Lutchenko was a pretty decent skater too.

 

[markrander87]

Still waiting to hear how you plan on handling both of my top lines, especially since I will get last change? It's quite apparent that you don't have the staff to handle both of those lines.

We keep hearing about this third line of yours, what exactly are they bringing to the table? It really seems like another one trick pony team that if shut down will have zero secondary scoring.

 

[jarek]

Still waiting to hear how you plan on handling both of my top lines, especially since I will get last change? It's quite apparent that you don't have the staff to handle both of those lines.

We keep hearing about this third line of yours, what exactly are they bringing to the table? It really seems like another one trick pony team that if shut down will have zero secondary scoring.

In order for us to actually believe this to be true, you'd have to show that his 2nd line can't score. Between Tommy Smith and Eric Lindros, I think it's actually a pretty good line offensively. The Gottselig - Colville duo on the 3rd line is also quite skilled.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Everything Phil Watson did to make him an ATD-calibre player was done as a playmaking CENTER

I thought it was fairy well known here that while Watson is listed as a C/RW or RW/C on most of the major sites, he actually didn't play much wing in the NHL. So in ATD2013 when overpass drafted Watson, I asked him about it. His answer:

The HOF website and the Canadiens website both list him at RW.

From my reading he played a bit of wing while breaking into the league and moved back to wing (mostly RW but some LW too) later in his career. But he was a full-time centre from 1937-38 through 1943-44 - basically his prime years. So it's his obvious position for the ATD, and that's where he will play for the Ottawa Senators.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59721947&postcount=876

Which means that every time Phil Watson was top 10 in assists (including his 2 top 10 finishes in points), he was a center: http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/watsoph01.html

More details - Phil Watson actually spent his prime as Bryan Hextall, Sr's center, with Neil Colville centering the 2nd line. From the HOH Wingers project (the discussion about Bryan Hextall:

1939-40 - The Rangers had three strong lines that played together all season. The team was incredibly healthy so changes weren't required because of injuries. All three lines scored at least 35 goals.


Hiller - Watson - Hextall (44 goals and checked top lines)
Shibicky - N Colville - M Colville (37 goals)
L Patrick - Smith - Macdonald (35 goals)

The lines were the same for the first half of the 1940-41 season, except that Alf Pike was in the lineup as a 10th forward and was in the mix with the third line. Phil Watson, who had been second to Cowley in league scoring for much of the first half, missed 8 games to injury and the lines became

Shibicky - Smith - Hextall
Patrick - N Colville - M Colville
Hiller - Pike - MacDonald

After Watson returned, he was back with Hextall on the top line, with first Shibicky and then Patrick. Hiller had a poor second half to the season and was banished to the third line and traded after the season.

Patrick played with Watson and Hextall in each of 1941-42 and 1942-43.

The two constants for the Rangers lines in Hextall's prime were:
1. Neil and Mac Colville played together
2. Bryan Hextall and Phil Watson played together.

Everything else changed at various times.

It's interesting that Watson was a RHS and Hextall a LHS, but Hextall played on his right. Can anyone think of any other great C-W combinations where they were on each other's backhands on the rush? Edit: I got one - Ovechkin and Backstrom.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=92917105&postcount=230

There you have it. Phil Watson's prime was spent as a "scrappy, two-way, playmaking center" who centered star RW Bryan Hextall, Sr. How much Watson's production will go down when he's stuck at RW is hard to say, but it will go down.

Phil Watson and Neil Colville were centers on the same team at the same time, and Colville appears to be considered the better player by a clear margin

Here is every vote for a postseason All-Star team (or any awards voting for that matter) that Phil Watson received during his career:

• 1939: 1 vote for C, 1 vote for RW
• 1940: 1 vote for C
• 1942: 2nd Team All Star C
• 1944 (war year): 6th in All-Star C voting (2 votes), 1 vote for All-Star LW
• 1945 (war year): 1 vote for 2nd Team RW, 1 vote for 2nd Team LW

Now Neil Colville:

• 1937: 1 vote for C
• 1938: 3rd in All-Star C voting, 5th in Hart voting
• 1939: 2nd Team All-Star C, 1 vote for RW
• 1940: 2nd Team All-Star C, 2 votes for LW
• 1941: 1 vote for C (only 2 Cs -Cowley and Apps - got more than 1 vote)
• 1942: 1 vote for C
• (missed most of 1943, 1944, 1945 due to the war, unlike Watson who played through)
• 1947: 7th in All-Star D voting
• 1948: 2nd Team All-Star D (4th in voting)

As the kids would say, "AINEC!"

For what it's worth, Colville was inducted into the HHOF in 1967 and Phil Watson never was.

Conclusion:

Macon's 1st line RW played the same position (C) at the same time for the same team as NJ's 3rd line C, and was clearly considered an inferior player. And that's before figuring out how much to ding Watson for being played out of position.

 

[jarek]

Yep, I got roasted in ATD 2011 I think for using Watson as the RW on my Denneny - Keats line.

 

[markrander87]

Everything Phil Watson did to make him an ATD-calibre player was done as a playmaking CENTER

I thought it was fairy well known here that while Watson is listed as a C/RW or RW/C on most of the major sites, he actually didn't play much wing in the NHL. So in ATD2013 when overpass drafted Watson, I asked him about it. His answer:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59721947&postcount=876

Which means that every time Phil Watson was top 10 in assists (including his 2 top 10 finishes in points), he was a center: http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/watsoph01.html

More details - Phil Watson actually spent his prime as Bryan Hextall, Sr's center, with Neil Colville centering the 2nd line. From the HOH Wingers project (the discussion about Bryan Hextall:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=92917105&postcount=230

There you have it. Phil Watson's prime was spent as a "scrappy, two-way, playmaking center" who centered star RW Bryan Hextall, Sr. How much Watson's production will go down when he's stuck at RW is hard to say, but it will go down.

Phil Watson and Neil Colville were centers on the same team at the same time, and Colville appears to be considered the better player by a clear margin

Here is every vote for a postseason All-Star team (or any awards voting for that matter) that Phil Watson received during his career:

• 1939: 1 vote for C, 1 vote for RW
• 1940: 1 vote for C
• 1942: 2nd Team All Star C
• 1944 (war year): 6th in All-Star C voting (2 votes), 1 vote for All-Star LW
• 1945 (war year): 1 vote for 2nd Team RW, 1 vote for 2nd Team LW

Now Neil Colville:

• 1937: 1 vote for C
• 1938: 3rd in All-Star C voting, 5th in Hart voting
• 1939: 2nd Team All-Star C, 1 vote for RW
• 1940: 2nd Team All-Star C, 2 votes for LW
• 1941: 1 vote for C (only 2 Cs -Cowley and Apps - got more than 1 vote)
• 1942: 1 vote for C
• (missed most of 1943, 1944, 1945 due to the war, unlike Watson who played through)
• 1947: 7th in All-Star D voting
• 1948: 2nd Team All-Star D (4th in voting)

As the kids would say, "AINEC!"

For what it's worth, Colville was inducted into the HHOF in 1967 and Phil Watson never was.

Conclusion:

Macon's 1st line RW played the same position (C) at the same time for the same team as NJ's 3rd line C, and was clearly considered an inferior player. And that's before figuring out how much to ding Watson for being played out of position.

Are you that robotic were you can't grasp the concept of Watson handling the "Centre" role while playing with Stewart? Stewart is not a typical Centre. Is it really that tough to understand?

You're really grasping at straws making note of single votes for Neil Colville.

What about the massive advantage I have in 2nd line, top pairing and goaltending.

What about the fact you STILL havent addressed the match up issues you will have with my top 2 lines. You still havent discussed this at all. Instead you make a chart showing Neil Colvilles single all star votes??

 

[markrander87]

This is by far the worst entry I have ever seen by TDMM, if he wins this series it will be clearly based on GM reputation.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Red Sullivan is just the type of player to get under Sidney Crosby's skin in the playoffs

We've all seen Sidney Crosby play, so we have more information than just "sometimes he's amazing in the playoffs, sometimes he stinks," which is what a quick hockey-reference search of his stats would tell someone 30 years from now. We know that over the last few years, he has been prone to losing his cool at times in the playoffs, something that hurts his game at both ends of the rink.

Well, Sid, meet Red Sullivan. There is more info in his linked profile, but here are some highlights:

Heros: Stars of Hockey's Golden Era: "Sullivan, a centerman, was known for his forechecking abilities and his talent for verbally harassing the opposition."

Legends of Hockey: "He made a habit of stirring up trouble, especially against the Canadiens. He often took runs at goaltender Jacques Plante. Habs' defenseman Doug Harvey warned the abrasive Ranger centreman to lay off. When Sullivan failed to comply, Harvey speared him in the stomach with his stick and ruptured his spleen. A Catholic priest was called in to deliver Sullivan's last rights, but Sullivan survived and eventually resumed his duties as a Ranger."

Those Were the Days: Fights of Yesteryear: "As a rule, assassination attempts are not made public. Doug Harvey, a normally reserved Montreal defenseman, nurtured a long hate against the Rangers’ Red Sullivan because, Harvey later charges, Sully had a distracting habit of kicking Harvey’s skates out from under him during subtle melees in the corner of the rink. Several times Harvey suggested that Sully reform. But when verbalizing got no results, Harvey jabbed Sullivan in the stomach with the sharp blade of his stick in November 1956. The Ranger captain crumpled to the ice and was removed to St. Clare’s Hospital where a Catholic priest delivered his last rites. Fortunately, Sullivan recovered, following a spleen operation for relief of a contusion."

Doug Harvey (in the heat of the moment?): "I hope the son-of-a-***** dies. Put that in your papers."

But Sullivan wasn't just an agitator and nothing else. In a 1958 poll of the 6 NHL coaches, he finished 1st for "best defensive forward," 1st for "best hustler/hardest worker," and 2nd (behind Don Marshall) for "best penalty killer." He was a good enough scorer to finish top 10 in NHL points 2 times and top 10 in NHL assists 3 times. And he was selected to 5 All-Star gams on merit. http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/sullire01.html

Macon's newer, softer second line leaves Crosby with little protection, allowing NJ to take subtle shots at Crosby without fear of retribution

Maltsev was a great scorer, but he was pretty soft:

Although Maltsev did not score a goal in the entire (1972 Summit Series) tournament, he managed to impress Canadians. However he might not have impressed Russian spectators, particularly the careful eye of a Soviet Sports editor named Yuri Vanjat.
Vanjat was quoted as saying "Alexander Maltsev's play was disappointing and the reason was clear. He seemed intimidated by the strong bodychecks delivered by the Canadians."

http://www.1972summitseries.com/maltsev.html

As for Craig Ramsey, fantastic defensive player, but Danny Gare, while nothing special as a defensive player himself, was the tough guy of the Ramsey-Luce-Gare line. I've seen Ramsey criticized (when compared to Bob Gainey) for not being tough enough to handle the more physical RWs in the playoffs. I have no idea if that's true, or just chest thumping by fans of Gainey, but either way, I don't see Ramsey as any sort of deterrent from messing with Crosby.