Red Fisher Conference Finals - Baltimore Skipjacks (1) vs Pittsburgh AC (3)

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Baltimore Skipjacks (1)

"Hockey is figure skating in a war zone."

Coach: John Tortorella
Captains: Stevens, Clarke, Day

Brendan Shanahan - Bobby Clarke (A) - Reggie Leach
Vic Hadfield - Connor McDavid - Yvan Cournoyer
Nick Metz - Steve Kasper - Tomas Sandstrom
Kirk Maltby - Tod Sloan - Mike Foligno
+ Reggie Fleming, Ron Sutter

Scott Stevens (C) - Rob Blake
Hap Day (A) - Gary Suter
Alex Gusev - Gennady Tsygankov
+ Billy Coutu

Billy Smith
CuJo

PP1: Shanahan - McDavid - Cournoyer - Blake - Suter
PP2: Hadfield - Clarke - Leach - Stevens - Gusev
PK1: Clarke - Metz - Stevens - Day - Smith
PK2: Kasper - Maltby - Blake - Tsygankov - Smith


Estimated minutes chart:

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Clarke	15	3	4	22
Shanahan	15	4		19
Cournoyer	14	4		18
McDavid	14	4		18
Leach	14	3		17
Hadfield	13	3		16
Metz	10		4	14
Kasper	10		3	13
Sandstrom	10			10
Maltby	7		3	10
Sloan	8			8
Foligno	8			8
	138	21	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Stevens	16	3	4	23
Blake	16	4	3	23
Day	16		4	20
Suter	16	4		20
Tsygankov	14		3	17
Gusev	14	3		17
	92	14	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

VS



Pittsburgh AC (3)

Original Red and White colours of the AC

Head Coach:

Pete Green


Assistant Coach:

Larry Robinson


Forwards:

Bert Olmstead - Jean Beliveau (C) - Helmuts Balderis

Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Blair Russell

Bob Gainey (A) - Doug Jarvis - Ed Westfall

Chris Kunitz - Harry "Rat" Westwick - Cully Wilson


Spare:

Jason Arnott



Defensemen:

Duncan Keith - Art Coulter (A)

Hamby Shore - Fred Lake

Eduard Ivanov - Dan Girardi


Spare:

Brooks Orpik


Goalies:

Georges Vezina

Corey Crawford





Special Teams:

PP 1:


Bowie - RHS (trigger/half wall into slot) Beliveau - LHS (net front) - Olmstead - LHS (cornerman/facilitator)
Ivanov - RHS (trigger) - Shore- LHS (QB)

PP 2:

Westwick - RHS (half wall) - Harris - LHS (net front/slot) - Balderis - LHS (float)
Ivanov - RHS (trigger) - Keith - LHS (QB)

PK 1:

Jarvis - Westfall
Lake - Coulter

PK 2:

Gainey - Russell
*Keith/Orpik - Girardi

*When playing with 7 Dmen on away ice Orpik will take Keith's spot on the 2nd unit. This frees up Keith to play even more time @ ES which I want out of my #1.


Line Combinations Home/Away:


STANDARD LINE UP @ HOME:

Olmstead - Beliveau - Balderis
Harris - Bowie - Russell
Gainey - Jarvis - Westfall
Kunitz - Westwick - Wilson

Keith - Coulter
Shore - Lake
Ivanov - Girardi


BALANCED LINE UP @ HOME

Olmstead - Beliveau - Westfall
Gainey - Bowie - Russell
Harris - Jarvis - Balderis
Kunitz - Westwick - Wilson

Keith - Coulter
Shore - Lake
Ivanov - Girardi

*Really like this fit as a change of pace given it spreads the offensive talent around the top 9 more than consolidating it on the scoring lines. Green can role this out to keep teams off balance. Balderis can carry a line offensively here while Jarvis can play a Larionov role between 2 wingers who are much more offensively gifted than the Gainey/Westfall. Beliveau and Bowie have elite checkers who can do heavy lifting in the corners and defensive zone while retaining the ability to get the puck to the C.


PROTECTING LEAD LATE @ HOME:

Olmstead - Beliveau - Balderis
Kunitz - Bowie - Wilson
Gainey - Jarvis - Westfall
Harris - Westwick - Russell

Keith - Coulter
Shore - Lake
Ivanov - Girardi

*Lines 3 and 4 will see increased action, with neutral ice clogged up. Force teams to dump and then use the speed and transition ability of our top 4 D to recover puck and move in counter direction.


WHEN TRAILING LATE @ HOME:

Olmstead - Beliveau - Balderis
Harris - Bowie - Wilson
Kunitz - Westwick - Westfall
Gainey - Jarvis - Russell

Keith - Coulter
Shore - Lake
Ivanov - Girardi

*Not a big change from standard lineup. Just inserting a bit more offense into top 9 with Kunitz and Wilson and rolling 3 lines late if trailing.



STANDARD LINE UP @ AWAY : (11 F - 7 D)

Olmsted - Beliveau - Balderis
Harris* - Bowie - Russell*
Gainey* - Jarvis - Westfall*
Westwick - Wilson

Keith - Coulter
Shore - Lake
Ivanov - Girardi
Oprik (PK specialist)


* Will all take extra shifts to cover 4LW vacancy.

This lineup is to maximize Keith's ES time. I want the #1 out @ ES as much as possible. He's already in the upper echelons of Dmen in terms of logging minutes but having Orpik means Keith only sees time on the 2nd PP unit.

The rest of the lineup can be juggled as outlined above w/ the home variations. ​

Click to read more...

 

[Habsfan18]

Congrats bud. Looking forward to this series.

I’m not sure how much time I’ll have for debating, as real life calls more now than it has in a few months, but I promise to check in as much as I can and post as much as my schedule allows.

 

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@Habsfan18 and @VanIslander

Good luck gents! I had eyed up Baltimore pretty early as a contender and I'm not overly surprised to see you guys here. Look forward to some discussion and a great series!

Looking at the Baltimore roster, namely the wings and the heavy D, Pittsburgh will be rolling out 11F and 7D on away ice.

STANDARD LINE UP @ AWAY : (11 F - 7 D)

Olmsted* - Beliveau - Balderis
Harris* - Bowie - Russell*
Gainey* - Jarvis - Westfall*
LW* - Westwick - Wilson

Keith - Coulter
Shore - Lake
Ivanov - Girardi
Orpik (PK specialist)

* Will all take extra shifts to cover 4LW vacancy.

• This lineup is to maximize Keith's ES time and keep the D pairings fresher.

• I want Keith out @ ES as much as possible. He's already in the upper echelons of Dmen in terms of logging minutes but having Orpik means Keith only sees time on the 2nd PP unit and IMO he can log more minutes than any D in this series given his limited exposure to special teams and his long history of playing ridiculous minutes, especially in the postseason.

• Orpik's presence keeps the 6 guys above fresher and also brings top shelf PK ability, shot blocking, and lastly will keep players like McDavid a bit more aware when they're buzzing around.

• Orpik given he's one of the best PK blue liners over the past decade will bump Lake down to the 2nd unit, allowing Lake to skate more ES strength minutes.

• When on home ice Pittsburgh will revert back to the standard in the OP.

PK unit on Away Ice:

PK 1:

Jarvis - Westfall

Orpik - Coulter

PK 2:

Gainey - Russell/Harris/Westwick

Lake - Girardi

 

[VanIslander]

It's amazing that a team with 7 non-NHLers among its core (top2 lines, top2 pairings, goalie), 7 of 11 non-NHLers, has made the conference championship final!

In 17 ATDs, once there was 4 (Soviets, not pre-NHL amateurs), twice 3, once 2 and a few times 1 on championship cores.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It's amazing that a team with 7 non-NHLers among its core (top2 lines, top2 pairings, goalie), 7 of 11 non-NHLers, has made the conference championship final!

In 17 ATDs, once there was 4 (Soviets, not pre-NHL amateurs), twice 3, once 2 and a few times 1 on championship cores.

So you're either inferring that pre-consolidation players shouldn't be here or that you're impressed with my line up and it's ability to highlight (given the extensive bio's I've done) the accomplishments of those players you're referencing. I'll believe the latter!

Vezina played for years in the NHL btw. Harris, Wilson, Shore, and Lake all played well into the 1910's and/or 1920's when the hockey talent was fantastic, both in the east and west.

 

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I'll get the first wave knocked out later tonight FYI. At least coaching and F's and then by tomorrow night, should have the full overview done.

 

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Coaching: Moderate Advantage for Pittsburgh

• Pete Green/Larry Robinson vs John Torterella

Torts is a very solid coach in the current era. Borderline top 5. He's not always had the greatest rosters and I think he's done a good job of getting a little bit more out of a team, certainly in the early stages of his stops. I think Baltimore has a strong roster for what Tort wants to do.

Having said that, he's a perfectly average coach in this setting (40 team draft). Probably somewhere close to 20th all time, give or take a few spots. Do I think he has the chops to match wits with Green and Robinson? Not really. Torts has a pretty specific style whereas Green's teams varied tactically over the years and still dominated regardless.

We already know Green's accolades and if you're not sure, please click on his name above.

What impresses me most about Green, out of all time information I found, he was such a versatile and innovative coach. His teams dominated in different ways tactically.

In the 1909 through 1913 stretch he used more of a balanced, almost modern, offensive approach. You can see many, many instances of Shore/Lake rushing the puck (more so Shore) and getting involved in the transition game which wasn't exactly commonplace yet, certainly not from both rear guards.

You can even see Lake being described (bio) as a modern cover (dman) w/ attributes listed. Those are the really neat pieces of history as you can see the specific design of the team work unfolding. A specific system that saw multiple positions play high in the offensive zone or middle of the ice to mind the rushes of either the D or C/rovers. Checking back was a feature and Green has a roster in Pittsburgh which can certainly do that, be it down the middle or on the wings.

The top scorers every year until 1913 were C's. Marty Walsh dominating scoring in the first 3 seasons. Even Skene Ronan, a C was top dog in 1912 with 35 goals in 18 games. He outscored Pitre and Ernie Russell by 8 goals each.

This is one of my favorite finds as it pertains to Green's role in the team play of Ottawa.

Considering we're talking about 110 years ago this is way ahead of the curve hockey tactically and actually quite modern.

"The Ottawa hockey team has developed a team play that is all its own, and so far as the season has yet gone nothing has been brought forward to compare with it"

17 Jan 1910, Page 12 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

The 1920's saw Frank Nighbor lead offensively in Greens first year back (title) while the team shifted heavily to a trap based game by year 2, largely due Nighbor's legendary defensive abilities. Wingers took on the lead offensive roles to include fore checking.

Green's always had puck movers (either tenure) from the blue line who were allowed to join the rush. This is seen all the way through his career.

Obviously Shore/Lake fit like a glove here. Keith is a premium puck mover and skater. Coulter, as referenced before was a noted puck mover. Just wasn't a big finisher which is fine given the goal scoring prowess in the top 6 of Pittsburgh (Beliveau, Bowie, Balderis) and Keith being the primary puck carrier. Ivanov was a fantastic rusher who had a very heavy shot and brilliant passing acumen as quote by numerous peers/historians. Girardi is really the only Dman on Pitt who can't move the puck and I'll take that given he's the #6 and filling a role of a strong stay at home player with top shelf PK/shot blocking ability.

Again something Pittsburgh focused heavily on was not just treating defense as something that starts from the blue line on back but as a collective unit to include the F's and conversely the blue liners being able to participate offensively, namely in moving the puck out of the D zone and then making the quality passes to the puck movers on the F line (Beliveau/Balderis) (Bowie/Harris). Front to back, back to front.

Larry Robinson brings a modern day approach to the table and will be a boon for an already strong special teams unit for Pittsburgh. That was his bread and butter in NJ and his coaching style is a very nice compliment to the more regimented Green.

I also think having somebody with the reputation as a legendary player is just another great rallying cry for the player to build off of.

Case in point? Powerful video showing the impact Robinson had during the Devils Cup run in 2000, in particular his speech after the Devils had gone down 3-1 to Philly in the ECF.

"It's hard not to respect Larry Robinson. He was a guy, you'd run through a brick wall for. He was such a player's coach."
-Ken Daneyko



Green worked with Alex Currie as an assistant in his final season in 24-25 and then himself became an AC to Currie the following year before retiring fully.

Here are a just a few of the telling quotes from peers/players, etc. Cleghorn wasn't even playing with Ottawa when he made his remarks about Green.

 

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Forwards: Big Advantage for Pittsburgh

-This honestly isn't overly surprising given the direction of the teams but I think Pittsburgh comes out ahead comfortably here for various reasons.

1st Line:

Shanahan - Clarke (A) - Leach vs Olmstead - Beliveau (C) - Balderis

• Shanny's a notch above Olmstead but it's nothing significant.

• Straight VsX favors Shanny by handful of points (79 vs 75.9) but he (37.4 %) also relies more on the PP than Olmstead (32.2%). Shanny is obviously goal scoring heavy with Olmstead being more play making focused. Everything Shanahan can do physically in the corners, high traffic areas, Olmstead can match in an all time sense. Olmstead led the league in assists in back to back to years, both in the regular and postseasons (including setting the single season record briefly) and has the C he accomplished that with here.

• I think Shanny's advantage is largely born out from the depth of AS nods (bunch of 3rd and 4th teams for BS) because the offensive output doesn't favor him much overall and he's a touch behind at ES. Olmstead is a notch better defensively. Both players fit extremely well on the line they're with.

• Beliveau is a notch above Clarke but not significantly.

• Offensively Jean is well ahead of Bobby. There are 15 points of separation in the 7 year metric. Small gap favors Beliveau at ES as well. Now Clarke's defensive reputation absolutely bridges the gap IMO.

• With that being said, while Clarke is a good playoff performer (not dominant), Beliveau's record is only bested by a handful of players all time (Gretzky, Roy, Richard) IMO. His peak, longevity, and proven ability to play way above the bar in crunch time dwarfs Clarke here. He and the Olmstead peaked together in the prime Howe/Kelly/Wings period and more than once bested them, easily for instance.

• Just a few highlights of what I've got stored on big Jean.

• A few big names rated Beliveau's shot harder than Boom Boom and best in the business. I didn't know this but I'll take the rep.

• All of these are from the Gazette: (i have more as well)

22 Jan 1955

This is Beliveau's 1st full season btw (23)

7 Nov 1959:

Don Simmons says Beliveau has hardest shot in league.

6 Feb 1959

Jack Adams says Beliveau has hardest shot in league

25 Apr 1960:

Ted Lindsay calls Beliveau the toughest guy in the league to check

"He's big and strong and his arms are so long that you can't get near the puck"

• Balderis is a huge advantage over Leach IMO. I think Reggie fits the line well but he's miles behind Helmut's as a scorer. The ES gap widens even further in favor of Pittsburgh. Balderis is the only real subpar defensive player on Pittsburgh though Leach doesn't seem like anything special there.

• I'm not going to assume Baltimore will go power on power but if they do, I like Pittsburgh's chances despite Clarke.

• Olmstead seems like a very strong counter to Leach. Bert is a plus defensive player (not that Leach is a big offensive threat anyway), uber physical, huge body and played a very hard brand of hockey. Arguably the best corner man of the 1950's.

• Balderis especially could be in for a big series with his skating and overall offensive acumen. I think Shanny could get abused by a much better skater. Someone who has world class offensive stick handling and general ability.

• In fact I think the top line of Baltimore is certainly below average as a skating group. Beliveau (got plenty of source material) and Balderis should be able to take advantage going the other way in particular, not just against their F counterparts but the Skipjack D, who while a fantastic unit certainly, a mean unit, is still much slower than the Pitt squad which was put together with skating a key component. Winning races to the puck, getting that half step in transition, on the kill, etc.

• I also want to point out that if anyone on Baltimore gets a bright idea of trying to line someone up, Cully Wilson is coming on the next shift and will run Clarke or McDavid. A series like this is precisely why I wanted Wilson around. He's an all time great goon who can actually play well. Pittsburgh won't stand for any nonsense. The roster is more than capable of playing a heavy game w/folks like Beliveau, Olmstead, Harris, 3rd and 4th lines, entire blue line namely Coulter who whipped folks like Earl Seibert and was a noted expert and big body checker. Add in Orpik on Baltimore's home ice and Pittsburgh is well situated IMO.

2nd Line:

Hadfield - McDavid - Cournoyer vs Smokey Harris - Bowie - Blair Russell

• I already thought Harris was better than Hadfield before I worked up my bio but Smokey should really get a good jump moving forward. His defensive reputation has to be among the best in the entire PCHA at this point. His skating was on Cylone Taylor's level. Harris is a notch better offensively to boot. 7 time AS in the PCHA. Scoring champ. 2x assist leader.

• Harris really doesn't have a true weakness. His offense at LW, in a 40 team league as a 2nd liner is perfectly average. He's clearly a very strong defensive presence. Elite skater. Elite physical presence on a huge body for the era. He's basically an elite skating/pre consolidation version of Bert Olmstead w/a higher offensive ceiling (given his peak scoring finishes and output away from Taylor) but lower floor.

• Given the Panarin comments from last round I'm probably not going to win any arguments with those folks but McDavid was drafted after Bowie, the latter being a steal IMO outside the top 300. It's an interesting comparison because McDavid doesn't really have any longevity. No playoffs to speak of (same with Bowie). But McD has already a brilliant peak, much like Bowie, though we can judge Bowie over an entire career.

• The way I look at this match up is Bowie has a big advantage having played an entire career while dominating offensively, over 80% of it vs any other player. Obviously the era brings context. But so does McD's lack of longevity. It's a trade off. I think McDavid belongs now but I'm not ready to put him above Bowie. Call Bowie-McDavid a wash.

• Cournoyer is a pretty big upgrade over Russell who was taken for his stellar defensive ability and removal of any chemistry concerns for Bowie. 2 very different players doing very different things but Cournoyer clearly has a better rep no doubt.

• Important to note that if Baltimore does decide to go power on power, they will be exposing Hadfield-McD-Cournoyer to Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall which spells big trouble for a couple of reasons.

• Hadfield is a very weak offensive player on a 2nd line. He's actually lower than Blair Russell. Going up against Westfall, a man who wiped out Bobby Hull in the postseason? McDavid has a higher ceiling but given his lack of experience especially in the postseason he's up against it vs Jarvis who's a great skater and was a master of positional defense. He's a great counter vs McD who's not physical at all. While I like Cournoyer a lot on a 2nd line, going against Gainey is a recipe for a real tough time. Gainey isn't getting skated over or around and he's going to put a hurting on Yvan in the checking department IMO.

• McDavid is AWFUL on the draw. Jarvis would eat him alive in the dot. We're talking probably 80-90% given McD is a career 44% guy and DJ is arguably the best of all time.

• Consider what he did against Bobby Clarke (cough, cough) in the 1976 SCF's:

Full Spectrum

Doug Jarvis whipped Clarke (another legendary faceoff guy) 14-4 in the dot in game 2!

I'm burnt for the night. Going to get some sleep and will finish up F's tomorrow before lunch....

 

[VanIslander]

Gawd I wish I didn't have a job. Am at work now. Will respond tomorrow.

Respect the lack of empty superlatives and overblown claims. And love reading history quotes!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Sir, I worked 59 hours last week. Going to push 60 again this week. That's what happens when your company starts furloughing people temporarily. You work more and take other people's responsibilities on top of your own.

Most of my work is taking place between 6 pm and 2 am (with little bits of activity when I can squeeze it in during the day). I'm divorced, living alone and am investing most of my free time to the ATD right now. I'm not just sitting here all day doing research/writing up overviews.

I look forward to the discussion Van! There is nothing personal here and I want zero drama from anyone.

My claims are based on a lot of time and energy, research and source material. I understand that I can be long winded and overly thorough but that's just me and how I'm wired and am trying very hard to be fair and point out how I see the match ups. Obviously people won't always agree, especially those who I'm competing against. That's just the nature of how things go here.

When I call somebody like Harris elite defensively/skating it's not just conjecture. His bio is now littered with numerous mentions of those facts. Not 2 or 3 blips. We're talking double digits over a LONG period of time. I've said many times (many people can back this up) that reputation should grow with the more information we have on someone. I won't settle for people citing 2-3 sources as concrete evidence of a player being great/average/bad etc. The more info you have, the more the rep becomes solidified IMO.

When I say McDavid is awful in the dot, can anyone argue based on McD's statistical evidence and who he'd face (Jarvis) provided Baltimore is sending Clarke out against Beliveau? Or that Jarvis' style is a strong counter to McD? You don't need a big lug against a player like McDavid. You need someone who can skate and play very strong positional defense, which Jarvis can do. It's about not exposing yourself to dumb mistakes.

Does anyone not think Pittsburgh's coaching is at least a solid advantage across the board here based on both win/losses and more importantly tactical contributions?

I think I laid out a pretty convincing case already for the top 6 favoring Pittsburgh and that advantage only grows IMO when you compare the 3rd lines. Does anyone think Tod Sloan has a more impressive career than Westwick if you actually read the entire career reconstruction of the latter I did a few weeks ago? Westwick brings everything in spades you want from a 4th liner and is the HOF. Foligno over Cully Wilson? Cully was an AS caliber player in multiple leagues in the PCHA (1st team in 1919) and WCHL (2nd team in 1925) who won a pair of Cups and showed very strongly both times. And again, reading his bio, is he not an all time worthy goon who can play? Or are we going to attempt to dismiss pre consolidation players further?

I said Cournoyer was a clear step up over Russell which is very fair. I also pointed out that while Yvan brings a lot more offense, Russell can counter with a lot more defense. Hockey isn't played in one zone, on any line. If I had a lesser offensive C on the 2nd unit, I wouldn't have drafted someone like Blair Russell. But Bowie is among the strongest offensive players on a 2nd line this year IMO. I don't need ringers on the wings. I need chemistry and abilities that compliment Bowie which Russell and Harris accomplish across the aboard. Again sources are plenty.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Forwards Continued (Big Advantage Pitt) - Bottom 6:


Metz - Kasper - Sandstrom
Maltby - Sloan - Foligno

vs

Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall
Vacant-Westwick-Wilson


Gainey is on the Mount Rushmore of defensive forwards. Metz was one of the best of his era, absolutely, but he's on the tier below looking up in this instance.

Jarvis and Kasper is about a straight wash though DJ has a better postseason record and more exposure to high leverage situations.

Westfall to Sandstrom is just a really big gap favoring Pittsburgh, not just in an all time light but from an overall impact IMO.

Pittsburgh is in a good spot here as Baltimore is forced to choose between power on power which negates Metz playing much against Balderis or shift their 3rd line to face Pittsburgh's top unit, which then exposes their 2nd line to Gainey-Jarvis-Westfall.

I think the likely output for the Skipjack's 2nd line would suffer greatly given the inexperience of McDavid and the fact that Hadfield doesn't bring much offense to the table (he's the lowest offensive producer on either 2nd line). I would take Gainey-Jarvis all day over McDavid Cournoyer. And why?

• Possession

As I factually pointed out yesterday, McDavid is an awful face off guy. He's certainly below average in the current NHL and he'd be trading sticks with arguably the greatest quick draw man of all time in Jarvis. DJ was capable of whipping Clarke in the dot in pressure situations. I'm not saying McD would get blanked, but him losing a very significant number of draws is likely. Even in the offensive zone, how often will Baltimore retain possession out of the dot?

• Trap game

Against that 2nd line Pittsburgh's 3rd unit will absolutely use the NZT.

Going up against the Clarke line, you'd see a more aggressive fore checking scheme with Jarvis over the top as the Clarke line is quite slow in terms of skating and I absolutely think Blake/Stevens can be rushed into making bad passes as they simply can't stake away from danger being pressed and checked by Gainey-Westfall.

With that being said there's no point in forcing the hand of Baltimore's D when McD and YC are skating. Giving those 2 an avenue to break free is a potential disaster and while Baltimore does have a pretty sizable advantage on the blue line, they don't exactly have fleet of foot puck movers or guys that were in the upper echelons offensively.

I think Blake has more value on the PP than ES in terms of offense (please correct me if I'm wrong here) and even though he's a very large human, he's not skating through or around Gainey on the left side.

Stevens isn't going to be moving the puck much regardless but he's not walking around or through Westfall either. Same rings true with Hap Day and Gary Suter.

That's one of the benefits of having invested heavily in an elite shutdown unit. It can play any sort of defensive game, and physically their attributes really create a nice buffer against size, speed, physicality, finesse, etc. This course of action will force Bmore to mainly play a dump and chase game which again favors Pittsburgh.

McD and Cournoyer aren't going to be winning many battles in the corners or probably venturing there much to begin with. Hadfield is absolutely a strong physical presence but one man is going to have a lot of trouble winning consistent battles when he's being tracked by Westfall and skating into Coulter and Lake at RD.

Pittsburgh also invested heavily in blue liners who can transition the puck with skating and or passing.

Shore and Lake were star F's before they transitioned to D. Shore was an elite skater and primary puck carrier for Pete Green from the back end. He was compared directly to Taylor in both terms of skating ability but also overall impact. Obviously that's a ceiling and not consistent but Shore was highly thought of after reading his bio especially. Lake was well above average in his own right, skating and moving the puck, despite being a more defensive player in nature. Again the versatility brings a little added bonus here.

We know Keith can move/pass the puck at a very high level. Coulter was noted more than a few times, by very notable people, to be a good puck carrier. Even Ivanov gives the bottom paring a strong transition player.

It's tough to compare the 4th line's because on Baltimore ice Pittsburgh will play with 7 D for reasons already state but do not forget Pitt's transition ability from the back end I talked about earlier.

Cully Wilson or Foligno? Give me the guy who was an AS in multiple top shelf leagues (PCHA and WCHL) and almost always raised his game in the postseason, especially offensively.

Wilson was a strong SCF player:

- Led Toronto with 3 goals in the 1914 Finals
- Led Seattle with 4 assists in the 1917 Finals
- Led Calgary with 5 goals in the 1924 Finals

Is Tod Sloan really better than Westwick in a 4th line role? Westwick was good enough offensively to outscore Alf Smith twice from a rover position. I reconstructed assists from a few seasons and he was among the best in the business at getting the puck to his teammates. Very unselfish player who will fit like a glove next to the even bigger pest/goon, Wilson. It's just a relentless pair who are really going to hammer folks when they're on the ice. And both have strong playoff resumes in big spots.

Westwick was probably the toughest pound for pound player in his era. Certainly above average if not good outright as a defensive presence. He was a big part of the undefeated 1901 team. He captained the Senators to their first of 4 straight titles (03-06), being a vital part to their success and overall he was an absolute royal pain in the ass to play against. Multiple AS nods and a place in the HOF.

Despite playing a high aggressive game, he was rarely penalized and Tommy Gorman flat out said if the Byng had existed in Rat's day, he would have won it every year. Newsy Lalonde also backed this up.

Look at what he did vs some absolutely sterling comp over numerous SC challenges:


Westwick in SC Challenges:
*did not include Dawson City Challenge as that was incredibly lopsided


Vs Winnipeg - Dec 30 1903, Jan 1 and 4th 1904

Ottawa wins 3 game series 2-1

Bullet Joe Hall opposite at rover

Westwick scores 5 goals

Hall scores 1 goal


Vs Toronto - Feb 23 and 25, 1904

Ottawa wins both games 6-3 and 11-2

Tommy Phillips opposite at rover

Westwick scores 1 goal

Phillips scores 1 goal


Vs Wanderers - Mar 2 , 1904

Game 1 ended in 5-5 tied (Wanderers refused to play a 2nd game and quit challenge)

Westwick scores 2 goals

Ken Mallen scores 1 goal


Vs Brandon - Mar 9 and 11, 1904

Ottawa wins both games 6-3 and 9-3

Westwick scores 1 goal

George Smith scores 1 goal


Vs Rat Portage - Mar 7, 9 and 11th, 1905

Ottawa loses game 1, 9-3.

Wins games 2 and 3, 4-2 and 5-4

Si Griffis opposite at rover

Griffis scores 3 goals in game 1

Westwick scores 1 goal in game 1

Griffis scores 1 in game 2 and 0 in game 3

Westwick with 1 goal in game 2


Vs Queens University - Feb 27 and 28th, 1906

Ottawa wins both games, 16-7 and 12-7

Marty Walsh opposite at rover

Westwick scores 4 goals in game 1
Walsh scores 2 goals in game 1

Westwick scores 2 goals in game 2
Walsh scores 1 goal in game 2


Vs Smith Falls - Mar 6 and 8th, 1906

Ottawa wins both games, 6-5 and 8-2

Westwick scores 2 goals in game 2

Ross (game 1) /Fraser (game 2) score 1 goal


Vs Montreal Wanderers - Mar 14 and 17th, 1906(ECAHA playoff series)

Ottawa looses game 1, 9-1 and win game 2, 9-3 (Wanderers annex title on goal differential)

Lester Patrick opposite at rover

Patrick scores 1 goal in game 1

Westwick scores 0

Patrick scores 3 goals in game 2

Westwick scores 1 goal


Totals:

Ottawa goes 13-3-1

Westwick 20 goals in 17 games

All opposing rovers score 16 goals in 17 games
(includes Joe Hall, Tommy Phillips, Si Griffis, Lester Patrick, Marty Walsh, with Patrick being the only one who really gave the Sens consistent trouble)

 

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Defensemen: Big Advantage Baltimore


Stevens-Blake vs Keith-Coulter

I actually had Keith (61) ranked over Stevens (68) on my initial top 100 ballot but having caught up after the project was finished would certainly elevate Stevens a tad and drop Keith down to about 75-80 as I have him over Gadsby, Salming and could argue him over Clapper. Basically I'd have about 20 spots between them all time. 4-5 spot difference in Dmen ranking.

It's funny but I actually think they possess many of the same qualities.

Both great leaders (Stevens being an all timer of course) who had that take the bull by the horns mentality in the postseason. Both raised their games but I'll absolutely argue Keith on Stevens level in the postseason (they were only ranked 2 spots apart in the HoH playoff project).

Stevens is obviously elite in his own end but he's more of a slanted defender in the ATD than Keith, certainly on a pairing with Blake. Stevens trying to move the puck, negates to some degree, his defensive impact.

I have Keith as a good overall offensive player with skating, vision and passing being very strong. If he had a better shot he'd be great. One thing to note about Keith is you see a pretty big uptick in offensive production in postseason play while Steven's drops a hair (basically stagnant). Now some of that is a product of Stevens playing more of a defensive role but I think most would agree, that Keith's defensive rep also rises in postseason play. For my money his 2015 Cup run was the most dominant/impressive among D since Leetch in 94.

Keith, over 23 games, played 31 minutes a night, scored 21 points, led the postseason (all players) in assists (18) and +/- (+16) and won the Smythe.

Defensively he's certainly good and borderline great IMO.

Think Keith can't log huge minutes in postseason play?

Postseason TOI since they kept track

Min playoff games set to 50:

• Keith has the best overall TOI of anyone in the cap era

• He's #5 overall in TOI/game

• Keith is #1 in ESTOI/game by a pretty large margin over some of the biggest names in the past 2 decades. This is precisely why I wanted Orpik in this series. One it allows Keith to skate peak minutes at ES because Orpik bumps Keith off the PK. And two Orpik gives Pittsburgh a feared hitter and allows the 2nd/3rd pairing to be taxed a little less. Might even see Shore take a few shifts at LW (another 4th line option) and let Orpik fill the D gap in those rare instances

• Rob Blake comes in at 42nd in ESTOI/game

I have Blake over Coulter by a small margin. Namely because of his Norris win and slightly better AS record.

Blake is a solid player in his own end at ES but isn't special. Coulter is absolutely elite. Look at the teams he played on (Chicago and NY) and where most of those squads finished defensively. I've already posted great scouting reports in previous threads that spell out how great he was defensively. When he was traded for Seibert, it specifically cited Seibert being a notch better offensively but was caught out of position too often whereas Coulter was rarely out of position, being a "near perfect blocker/checker".

Obviously Baltimore is going to have a big advantage from a physicality standpoint when matching up the Dmen, however Pittsburgh, again, was built to not only be able to stake at a high level but give and take punishment. Some of this will touch on the F's again but only to show Pitt will not be pushed around.

Keith is a honey badger in the playoffs. Very gritty and plays an abrasive style while logging ridiculous minutes. Coulter was one of the bigger players of his era, a heavy checker but someone who didn't make stupid decision that took him out of position. Coulter also whipped Earl Seibert in a fistfight, a player most guys stayed clear of. AC was an incredible teammate. Routinely stuck up for his guys and fought folks like Shore, Nels Stewart, Lionel Conacher, etc.

Lake was one of the heavier bodies in the game during his day and was a big time checker. Shore would throw the odd big hit but was just an average presence in that regard. Ivanov and Girardi have zero issues playing above the bar physically. Orpik brings a fear factor to this match up and nice counter to the Stevens/Blake/Suter band.

Beliveau was huge for his day. This is not only obvious looking at his profile but you can see it plain as day thanks to Youtube.

In the 50's he was noted as a strong fore checker and Ted Lindsay was quoted (posted news clipping earlier in thread) as saying Beliveau was the toughest player in the league to check. This, during peak Gordie Howe.

Olmstead was one of the bigger/rougher players in the league. Arguably the best cornerman in the 50's.

Hell, even Balderis was a bigger dude in the Soviet union. I also think Balderis and Beliveau will be able to take advantage of their superior skating ability vs the Bmore dmen, wingers, and C's they would be likely skating against.

NYT - Feb 6, 1979:

The first player to appear in uniform was Helmut Balderis, the huge 26 year-old right wing with a moustache the Volga boatmen would have cherished. "He is something," said a Canadian familiar with the Soviet team. "Over there, he is known as Elekritchka - The Electric Train."

"He's also listed at 5-10 and 189 pounds," an onlooker mentioned later. "He looks twice that big to me."

Helmut Balderis had the look of a star, leaning nonchalantly on the boards between rushes, the first to sit on the bench when his line was not scrimmaging. But when he was working, he displayed the burst of Earl Campbell turning the corner on a sweep."

Smokey Harris was like Olmstead. One of the bigger players in the PCHA and top shelf from a physicality standpoint. Harris is literally quoted saying he loved to play in the rough stuff. Drop the mitts? Absolutely. Bowie was a small player but very scrappy. He didn't miss much time at all and that's incredible given his size, attention that was put on him, and era. He's won't be bowling people over but he's not a pillow either.

Gainey-Westfall are both elite physically speaking. Jarvis is like Bowie. Scrappy but given his size won't be dominating people physically. He used his skating and positional play to peak as a Selke winner.

I've got zero worries about Westwick-Wilson handling rough stuff. Wilson, as mentioned before, will serve as a reminder not to be stupid.






Will continue D Thursday evening and should get most/all of my overview done by the end of the night......

 

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Defensemen (Continued): Big Advantage Baltimore:

Continuing onward, while Pittsburgh isn't that far behind on the 1st pairing, the 2nd pairing is a larger gap over. I think Day overrated slightly in an all time sense. His AS record doesn't seem that impressive and was on a lot of losers in Toronto which I'd like to know his role in. Was often in the shadow of a much stronger player. Either way Day is still ahead of Shore. I don't think nearly 300 spots separate them though.

Shore/Lake bio

- 6'0", 175 lbs
- Stanley Cup (1905, 1911)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1908, 1915)
- 6th in NHL assists (1918) at age 32.
- Started as a scoring forward: 8th in FAHL scoring in 1906, 7th in ECAHA in 1907, 3rd in MHL in 1908
- Joined NHA as a defenseman: Placed top-6 among defensemen seven times in his 9 NHA/NHL seasons: 4th, 2nd, 4th, 1st, 6th, 3rd, 6th
- Zero issues playing a physical brand of hockey and was among the PIM leaders in 8 of 9 NHA/NHL seasons: 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 9th

We know for a fact Shore was an elite skater. He and Lake were noted to be the best pairing Lesueur ever played behind during their time together and again Cyclone Taylor and Pulford had been there before Lake/Shore. There are so many sterling reports on their play together from 1910 through 1913. And I think despite guys like Taylor and Pulford being better, obviously in an all time sense, chemistry plays an important part in winning hockey games.

These are some newer pieces of information I found on Shore after "finishing" his/Lake's bio weeks ago. This is all post dynasty era.

27 Jan 1917, 18 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Great overview of his career, but this is pretty glowing praise for a 31 year old defensemen.

Shore being called the best Defensemen in the entire league (1917), over Cleghorn.

27 Feb 1914, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

1914, Shore's value being mentioned explicitly if he were to miss time.

30 Dec 1914, 9 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

Shore developed into one of the greatest cover points in the NHA (not a shabby league)

11 Jan 1916, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

1916, Shore's versatility mentioned (like I said earlier having 7 D gives Pitt the ability to get Shore a few shifts up on the 4LW spot)

Shore wasn't a superstar from coast to coast IMO (was in Ottawa) but he was a star. They held a memorial game for him after his death and even gathered money to erect a small monument in his honor. The praise is significant across a very long period of time. You have to remember he played from 1905 through 1918 and might have played longer had he not died from the Spanish Flu. Even in his last year the Ottawa papers were saying he was playing like the MVP for the NHL.

Obviously there is an even bigger gap when looking at Suter/Lake. Again, I think my work on Lake should give him a decent bump on the content+volume but he's still a looooong way behind Suter in an all time sense.

I will say this. There are three things I think Pittsburgh has a clear advantage in.

1. Speed.
-Shore was one of the absolute best skaters in the leagues he played in (CHA/ECHA/NHA/NHL). He was clocked on Taylor's level. Lake, while not quite that fast was still way above average, especially for his size. I don't see anything mentioning Day's speed. Doesn't read like somebody who was a plus in that department. I remember Suter being pretty strong on his skates but that was 20+ years ago so someone correct me if I'm wrong. Either way I think Pittsburgh brings a lot more skating ability while still being physical (just not as physical as Day/Suter). It's a trade off.

2. Chemistry
-I've already outlined this a few times over the playoffs. Shore/Lake's rep together is overwhelmingly great. There were an odd ball poor performances but they were arguably the best pairing from 1910-1913. I think chemistry even more important on the blue line because you're talking about 2 players. Last line of defense before Vezina. Not having to worry about communication issues or inability to perform in pressure spots, etc. Knowing tendencies of the guy you're playing next to. Inherently. This is quite an important detail in competitive sports IMO.

3. Impact On Respective Title Winners
-Shore/Lake anchored the dominant 1910 and 11 Ottawa teams. Suter missed most of the one title run his team (Flames) went on. His playoff career looks rather bleak overall to be perfectly honest. Hap Day had a very strong 1932 Cup run but after that season? From 1932-33 through 1937-38 Hap Day scored ONE point in 38 playoff games. The Leafs lost in the Finals 4 times including a few upsets in that span. Obviously that isn't on him exclusively but I'd like to know more in depth about those years and why Day seems to have a rather (at best) average time over a long period of time.

Is that going to bridge the gap completely? Absolutely not but I do think Shore/Lake was a fairly astute way to complete my 2nd pairing as late as I did (picks went Green, Shore, Lake actually, rounds 13, 14, 15). There should be something to be said for the big additions in research, plus chemistry, not just w/ one another but also the HC. This is still a big win for Baltimore but more so because Day-Suter is a really strong 2nd pairing w/ Shore/Lake being average overall.

I think Ivanov and Tsy are basically a straight wash here. They actually played a very similar style of game, both were incredible skaters, extremely physical. They shot blocked, played an abrasive style of game. Ivanov strikes me as more well rounded player but again, this is about as close to a tie as you'll see IMO.

Ivanov overview:

*Credit to Theo for this material

Recognition in USSR:
1958-59: top 9 defenceman
1959-60: top 11 defenceman
1960-61: top 10 defenceman
1961-62: top 9 defenceman
1962-63: top 10 defenceman
1963-64: #1 defenceman, All-star
1964-65: #2 defenceman, All-star
1965-66: #3 defenceman
1966-67: #5 defenceman

Hockey handbook (1977):

"Hockey-universalist, equally strong and useful in both defence and attack. Physically gifted, bold, fast and very skilled in puckhandling and physical play. Capable of organizing the attack. Had an accurate long pass and a strong shot from the blue line."

Farid Bektemirov (championat.com):

"Ivanov on the ice was like a locomotive - an athlete of great size and quite muscular, yet able to skate at incredible speeds, unusual for hockey. Opponents tried, to put it mildly, to avoid direct confrontation with this imposing figure, who was capable of winning any struggle and coming out with the puck, in open ice as well as the corners. In addition, Eduard Georgievich Ivanov had (as is often the case with attacking defenders) a powerful shot, but differed from many of his colleagues in that he also had excellent vision of the ice and amazing accuracy on his passes."

Tarasov (1968):

"Again, the organizers of the tournament could not decide which of the Soviet players should receive a special prize. A Salomonic decision was reached: the prize was handed to our team captain Boris Mayorov, so that he could transfer it to the team and we would then decide who our best player was. At the general meeting, the players agreed with the coaches that the prize should be given to Eduard Ivanov. (...) As tight-knight and selfless as this team was, Ivanov still stood out with his amazing courage. He willingly threw himself in front of the puck, not just in desperate situations. Constantly looking for an opportunity to show his bravery and selflessness, he didn't spare himself in search of the toughest combat. And he did it all with a smile and inspired the other players with his enthusiasm."

-While he didn't play forward in his senior career, Ivanov established himself as one of the leading two-way defencemen in the Soviet Union.

Sologubov:

"The hockey-defenceman has long ceased to just be a destroyer. Now he is a creator, a full-fledged partner of the forwards, someone who strikes the target no worse than the most skilled attackers, sometimes even better. A good defenceman knows how to anticipate the next moves in the development and continuation of an attack and to be back in time for the critical work on defence. (...) If you ask me which of the current defencemen comes closest to the type of a modern defenceman, the first I will name is Eduard Ivanov of CSKA, and – sometimes – Vladimir Brezhnev. To a lesser degree, Viktor Kuzkin and Aleksandr Ragulin."

Boris Mayorov:

"Every forward can only dream of playing with a defenceman like Ivanov, a daringly courageous player who fought tooth and claw and forced his teammates to fight too. He really knew how to lead a team. I've personally never had a better partner among the defencemen I played with and I can't imagine there will ever be one. Others among our defencemen manage to give the puck to one of the forwards, but that's where it ends. Whether it is convenient for me to receive the pass or not, whether I can develop a further attack from my position – that's no longer his concern: 'Now you've got the puck, do something with it, my job is already done.' Ivanov didn't play like that, it was alien to his entire way of thinking. If the timing was bad for me and I wasn't ready to receive a pass, he would try it on his own and he would try everything, but he would keep the puck to himself and not pass it to me."

-In 1966, Tarasov made Eduard Ivanov a halfback together with Viktor Polupanov on the second 1-2-2 line with Ragulin (D), Firsov (F) and Vikulov (F).

Firsov:

"For my liking, Ivanov was a brilliant halfback. To play with him was both easy and very interesting. He went ahead daringly and the opposing defencemen did not know who to take care of, Polupanov or Ivanov."

-Ivanov's passion was not always a strength, but could also turn into a weakness:

Tarasov (1987):

"In Eduard there was always a youthful passion, a kind of grit and an irrepressible game fantasy. He was everywhere, got involved in physical encounters anywhere on the ice and he didn't let the opponent come to his senses or lift his head up. Even the Canadians remembered their encounters with Ivanov for a long time, as he didn't strip them off the puck with cleverness but with unusually violent temper. He neither spared himself nor the opponent. (...) He didn't concede anything to anyone, he knew how to tame an opponent like no-one else. However, his brakes didn't always work: unfortunately, he would sometimes start a scrimmage himself."

Vyacheslav Starshinov:

"Eduard was gritty, impulsive and explosive. He was passionate, maybe too passionate. He was a fighter to the bone."

​

Boris Mayorov:

"Ivanov was never an infallible defenceman. Occasionally, he commited a gross blunder and at times he cost us a goal against. But this too was a result of his character. His passion and desire to win at all costs and help his teammates made him take risks and overestimate his strength."

I think Gusev and Girardi are washes as well. They each have big strengths. Gusev being offensive/goal scoring driven and Giardi with elite shot blocking and great PK ability in the current NHL. They each compliment their partner well but there is chemistry to consider in favor of Baltimore here.

One also has to remember Orpik is playing on Baltimore's home ice. He'll help keep the entire D corps a little fresher. He allows Keith to focus almost exclusively on ES play, Shore to get a few shifts in on the F line and he also injects more physicality and big time hitting ability to the equation. Played in 3 Cup finals. Won a pair. Over 150 playoff games. Very strong PK'er over the last decade. Great shot blocker as well. Something the Pitt D does extremely well btw.

 

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Goalies: Moderate Advantage Pittsburgh:

Billy Smith ranks somewhere between 22-25 all time in my book. He gets a bump for his play w/the Islanders dynasty certainly but his career is basically confined to a 4-5 year stretch, playing behind the most dominant team in hockey. Did he generally play very in the postseason on the dynasty? Yes. Won a Smythe for his efforts in 83. Vezina never played on a dynasty and still has a better playoff rep IMO given he was much more vital to Montreal than Smith was to NYI. And lastly Smith was never really a big workload goalie. The deeper the series goes the more the gap widens IMO.

Smith was a 1st team AS once. He never finished higher than 5th again.

And this was a weak era for goalies. In 79-80 the 1st and 2nd G on the AS team were Esposito and Don Edwards. 80-81 it was Mike Luit and Mario Lessard. Smith was 1st team in 82 over Fuhr. In 83 you had Peters/Melanson. 84 was Barrasso/Riggin.

Vezina is just better across the board, considerably in some areas. I've got him 10th but am very much warming up to 9th at this point. He has a fantastic (way better) peak, elite (way better) longevity as the best G/in the conversation for, in the world over the regular season. His era saw Benedict, Holmes, Lehman, etc.

Vezina never missed game. Never came out of a game.

His reputation as a money goalie is the biggest boon to his profile that I'm finding. Even when Montreal lost, Vezina was often cited as being the "only reason the score wasn't worse", "best player on the Habs". He has some absolutely legendary performances.

You can see this one I shared over in the HoH a few days back:

Calling Goalie Historians - Where Does This Vezina Playoff Performance Rank All Time?

Where would this rank on greatest goalie playoff performance in Montreal/league History, ballpark?

10 Mar 1923, 22 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

• Gutted Montreal team beats dynasty (1923) Senators 2-1 in game 2 of their 2 game NHL playoff round. This is an Ottawa team with Nighbor, Denneny, Clancy, Gerard, Darragh, Broadbent, Boucher,

• Ottawa had won game 1, 2-0 so they advanced on goal differential (3-2). Whoever decided that was a good way to advance a winner should have been jailed

• Vezina gives greatest display seen in net all year.

• Stopped 64 of 65 shots in a 2-1 win. Non stop barrage of shots from everywhere. Now obviously we have no way of knowing how many shots were counted that were going wide and Vezina pushed them to a corner. Or something a scramble around the net was recorded as a shot. Even if you cut the # in half it's still amazing. That's the Montreal paper above btw.

• Against an utterly dominant Senators team, given this was at twilight of Vezina's career, it's a mighty impressive feat. Plus it's just cool to see there was clearly stats being recorded beyond just goals/assists/penalties in the early 20's.

From the Ottawa Citizen: (same date/game from the Montreal Gazette above)

10 Mar 1923, 11 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

81 of 82 turned aside according to Ottawa.

Notice the "Vezina stopped 3 times as many shots as Benedict (another reason why Benedict really is a full notch below Vezina but that's another argument all together) and then the total number for Benedict being tailed at 31 shots. So 3 x that amount, roughly would be 90. Again, we should assume that some of these shots are likely pucks that weren't going on net. Conversely even if you went overboard and cut the overall number in half it's still a massive performance given the situation/era.

Over his career, Vezina's consolidated goals against finishes are, 1st(1911), 1st(1912), 1st(1914), 1st(1924), 1st(1925), 2nd(1918), 3rd(1916), 3rd(1917), 3rd(1922), 3rd(1923).

23 Mar 1916, 10 - The Gazette at Newspapers.com

• Vezina gets lions share of credit in game 2 of the SCF's vs Portland

Same game (different paper)

23 Mar 1916, Page 14 - The Oregon Daily Journal at Newspapers.com

• Vezina is also cited playing behind weak defenses at different times over the course of his career. Unlike Benedict of the same time period, Georges wasn't an overly insulated G.

26 Mar 1924, 22 - Edmonton Journal at Newspapers.com

• Vezina is literally quoted as being the reason the Habs won the title in 1924. Both sides of the rooting sections recognized this.

• He was 37 years old at the time and would pass away roughly 2 years later due to severe health issues.

• Vezina cited as turning aside, "no less than 23 shots in the second period alone", working in "dazzling fashion"

• Again, Montreal's D ripped apart leaving Vezina to fend off heavy barrages, which he does.

Same paper, next page:

• And that's just a taste of what's stashed on Georges. Depending on how much you separate eras, I can see why TDMM would put Vezina 9th all time. If you're even more favorable to the 1910's/20's I could see 8th but that's probably a harder sell.

• Some of these performances are absolutely Hasek level nuts regardless and it's rare to see Vezina mentioned as playing poorly.

 

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Special Teams - Wash:


PP1:
Shanahan - McDavid - Cournoyer - Blake - Suter

PP2:
Hadfield - Clarke - Leach - Stevens - Gusev

vs

PP1:
Bowie - Beliveau - Olmstead - Ivanov - Shore

PP2:
Westwick - Wilson - Balderis - Ivanov - Keith

• Beliveau is by far the best player on either unit 1st unit. He's a huge body who owned the net front in the 1950's/60's. He also played the point w/Geoffrion in Montreal at various points under Dick Irvin (when Irvin went with 5 forwards) which isn't surprising given his shot was rated best/hardest in the league by numerous hockey luminaries like Sawchuk, Jack Adams, Don Simmons.

• Normally a Stevens/Day pairing would push a lot of players around in the slot. Beliveau's size, strength, rep, and just overall standing all time is a great counter to the big, bad, Dmen on the Baltimore unit.

• What I really like about Pitt's forwards on the PP, besides they're all really good in that regard, is the size and physicality of the unit. Baltimore has 1 F that can do damage inside (Shanny). McDavid and Cournoyer are more perimeter players. They're not going to win many puck battles against the Coulter's/Westfall/Gainey's, etc.

• Skating becomes less of a factor on the PP (unlike F's on the PK) given time and space is quite limited. Olmstead was one of the heaviest/most physical players of his era. He's not getting pushed around, just like Beliveau. Even Bowie, while small, was extremely scrappy and scored a lot of goals from in close/rebounds, etc. He's not going to lock down the goal mouth but I trust him in a rougher environment more than I do McD or Counroyer. Bowie played a lot of games, in an extremely violent era, with a giant target on his back every game and scored a lot of goals from in close and in thick frays.

• Here are JB's PP goal finishes over his career btw:

• Russell Bowie is the 2nd best F looking at either top unit. His overall offensive value is higher IMO than any Bmore F (unless we're chopping VsX down to 4-5 years). He's a legendary goal scorer. Right handed shot which compliments Beliveau and plays nicely with a pinpoint passer and offensive hockey mind in Ivanov who is also a RH shot on the same side as Bowie. Makes for easy transition.

• Bowie could score from anywhere in the offensive zone. He had an elite shot, accuracy, power on it. He'll play between the dot and slot. When you couple him with Beliveau at the net front, you force a PK unit into a decision.

• Do you condense, and try and eliminate Beliveau from playing havoc on Billy Smith/shots getting through, or do you shade out to block Bowie from ripping shots from the angle, subsequently opening passing lanes into the middle?

• A lot of knowledgeable hockey folks in the HoH ranked Bowie well above Shanny all time (screen shots below).

• Bowie absolutely dominated the comp for the bulk of his career, to include the literal end point when the league quality started to really pick up. Even in his final season, Bowie led the league in scoring (1908) over Walsh, Phillips, and Ernie Russell. His goal totals dwarf everyone from that era and it's pretty easy to conclude from the sheer volume of goals and game reports that he'd have likely led the league in PP markers many times had they been tracked as they are today.

• Overall, Bowie simply impacted the game of hockey on a much bigger level than Shanny. Yes, they played 90-100 years apart but reputation and prestige is still a part of the evaluation.

• Obviously Baltimore has a big advantage on the blue. It mirrors the big advantage they have there overall. By design, Pittsburgh does have the best group of PK forwards in the ATD with Jarvis, Westfall, Gainey, Russell/Harris/Westwick/Olmstead, etc.

• I can't stress this enough. Faceoffs, faceoffs, faceoffs. Possession is so critical on ST's. McDavid being on the top unit, going against Jarvis is about as one sided as you'll see in an ATD. Even Bobby Clarke's usual big gap in the dot is gone completely here.

And I just found this on Jarvis:

• Another convincing piece on how dominant Jarvis was on the draw/PK. Bowman outlines exactly how impactful Jarvis was on the team and talks specifically about puck possession being so critical to PK success. Something I've been saying the entire time.

• Also, consider that as dominant as Gainey-Jarvis were they often skated with Jim Roberts in real life. Here, they have Ed Westfall. I think teams are going to have a very difficult time scoring on this trio.

The Greatest Game

Baltimore has better F's on the 2nd unit surely though Balderis is an elite presence on a 2nd unit IMO. And I'm also watering down my 2nd F group a bit purposely. With the above set up I can play folks like Harris and Russell more at ES which is were the vast majority of playoff hockey is played. I think the D are very close overall.

Overall, I think Pittsburgh has the better F's top to bottom on the PP but Baltimore has a much stronger top pairing with the 2nd units being very close. Tight PP groups.


PK1:
Clarke - Metz - Stevens - Day - Smith

PK2:
Kasper - Maltby - Blake - Tsygankov - Smith

vs

PK1:
Jarvis-Westfall-Orpik-Coulter-Vezina

PK2:
Gainey-Russell/Harris/Westwick/Olmstead - Lake - Girardi - Vezina


Clarke - Metz may be the 2nd best duo on the PK among forwards in the ATD. But even they're still a tier below Jarvis-Westfall IMO

Clarke's impact is fantastic, even still, his usage is significantly lower than either Jarvis or Westfall who also have just as impressive output. Is Clarke really going to be able to handle top minutes when it wouldn't seem he played top PK minutes in real life? Maybe. If anyone can do it, it's Clarke. Just something to ponder. Metz was one of the strongest defensive F's of his era and should be treated as a great PK'er here certainly.

Jarvis-Westfall, though, are both in the conversation for best PK C and W of all time. They can both log huge minutes relative to most other 1st teamers, Jarvis gives Pittsburgh a decided advantage in the dot, especially vs McDavid here. Westfall scored 8 SH goals in 95 playoff games (led playoff 4 times). Metz/Clarke combined for 3 in 212.

PK Usage among F's and team success rate (1960-today)

You have to give the nod on the 1st unit blue line to Baltimore. It's an elite pairing. Orpik-Coulter is very strong IMO but they're still a step below. I think Coulter and Stevens are pretty close. Both were big guys, uber physical, great leaders with Scotty being an all timer. Stellar defensive reputations and both played in strong era's for Dmen. Stevens is way up there all time but like Stevens, Coulter had a big impact on team defenses that were generally always ranked very highly if not #1 overall, and his reputation as someone who was rarely out of position and the heavy style of game he played is a pretty convincing collection of data for his standing on the PK.

Obviously I think the bigger gap is Day to Orpik, though Orpik's PK usage numbers since Alex Pietrangelo started playing full time (2011) are almost identical. He's a big body. Extremely physical. Good shot blocker and the numbers show Brooks to be one of the better stoppers over the last decade, a long period of time.

Moving on to the forwards on the 2nd units, this is Pittsburgh by a fairly large margin. Gainey and any combination of Russell/Harris/Westwick is going to best Kasper-Maltby IMO.

The blue line this time is a wash IMO. Girardi's usage and success rate are elite. One of the best of the cap era. He's arguably the best blocker of the last 15 years. I think he's a strong player on a 2nd unit. Lake is a solid option. Love his size and strength and ability to play a very heavy game.

Goalies:

Vezina vs Smith

Not much more to add to what I already said above. I think Vezina is a moderate advantage. Plus I just love Vezina's calmness in the playoff environment. His reputation for not getting fazed is legendary.

With all that being said, I think Pittsburgh has a moderate advantage among F's but Baltimore counters with a big gap favoring the D. Lastly Vezina is clearly a notch above Smith so as I said from the beginning, I think both units are very close to one another, making this a wash.

 

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Why Pittsburgh Should Win:


Better/more versatile coaching staff.

-Green won multiple titles in two distinctly different time periods/leagues in hockey history. He used multiple system and many techniques which were distinct, well ahead of the curve as far as hockey strategy goes. Some of those tactics were refined are still being used today in the modern game.

And that includes both whole systems of play and more intricate details like using F's on their off wing to specifically check opposing stars. His liberal use of subs earlier than other teams which goes back to his reputation as a trainer. Understanding the importance of conditioning and keeping players fresh. Green was renowned throughout the hockey and sports world as a coach. He checks off all the boxes.

Robinson will handle ST's and his presence as a legendary player himself gives added inspiration to the Pitt players. He brings a modern element, great results as an AC and frees Green up to spend even more time game planning and mapping out ways to win at ES.


Better peak and depth at forward.

Beliveau is the best player in the series. Strongest offensive player. Best playoff performer. Best leader. His size, strength, and length + skill is a fantastic buffer against a much small Clarke. Not to mention Jean is a better/stronger skater. I personally have Bowie as the best player on either 2nd line. There is just so much goal scoring at the 1st and 2nd C spots for Pitt while Balderis is very strong on the wing in the scoring department.

Pittsburgh has the strongest collection of defensive F's in the ATD, by a pretty good margin IMO. This was by design as I knew I'd likely be chasing other teams on the 2nd pairing surely and possibly even slightly on the 1st/3rd in certain match ups. D doesn't just start on the blue line. Pete Green's steams were notorious for having many strong back checkers.

Gainey, Westfall, Jarvis, Harris, Russell, Westwick, Olmstead, all range from legendary to good defensively. Beliveau is above average. Kunitz (on home ice) and Wilson are certainly both reliable. The only player one can argue is below average is Balderis.

Jarvis is a fantastic counter to Clarke in the dot and gives Pittsburgh a huge advantage vs McDavid.

Pittsburgh possess a forward group that is also quite physical with many players well above average in size, and skating. I think skating especially favors Pitt on F and D. Pitt has a group of checking F's that can and will wreak havoc on the slower Baltimore D in their own zone. Gainey and Westfall were legendary in this regard. Olmstead, Harris, Wilson, Kunitz, Westwick, even Beliveau in the 50's was a force on the boards, fore checking. If McD and Cournoyer aren't on the ice, look for a more aggressive fore check w/ Jarvis the positional master playing high and looking for turnovers or breakouts to slow.


Vezina

The coolest man on earth during his playing days. The resume speaks for itself. He often played behind defenses that were getting shredded, yet he almost always came out of a game with a good report and many being absolutely sterling performances noted, a few of which I've shared already. Vezina is precisely the type of G you want in the biggest moments. Most G's can be quite volatile in terms of performances. Emotions. Vezina spent well over a decade as the best or in the conversation for that honor. Numerous performances in the finals (win or loss) that were cited as being elite.


Playoff Performers

Beliveau, Keith, Gainey all have a Smythe. Vezina would have likely had more than one had the award existed.

Coulter captained the Rangers to a title and played a key role in Chicago's upset win earlier in his career. Pitt's 2nd pairing anchored the back end of an Ottawa dynasty.

Jarvis was the final piece to the Montreal dynasty of the mid to late 70's and played a massive role getting possession on the draw and as a PK'er.

Westwick's bio (I posted his performances in the SC challenges) shows him to be a stud in crunch time. Kunitz was a clutch player for years in Pittsburgh. I showed Wilson's proclivity for raising his game in the SCF's earlier in this thread.

 

[VanIslander]

Why Pittsburgh Should Win:

Better/more versatile coaching staff.

-Green won multiple titles in two distinctly different time periods/leagues in hockey history.

Edge to Pittsburgh in coaching.

Torts did win the Stanley Cup, is a 2-time winner of the Jack Adams trophy in a 30+ team league, is the first American coach to 500 wins (and 600 wins), and guided Columbus to its first-ever playoff series win in a sweep of Tampa, the first time ever a President's trophy winner was unable to win a single playoff game.

Better peak and depth at forward.

Beliveau is the best player in the series.
Strongest offensive player. Best playoff performer. Best leader. His size, strength...

Hold on.

1. You drafted round 1 higher so of course Beliveau > Clarke to some degree. But Clarke + Stevens (not to mention Day) makes for the best leadership combo, Stevens bringing enough strength and physicality to match Beliveau's.

Edge in leadership is Baltimore's.

Coaching + leadership = no edge for either team.

I personally have Bowie as the best player on either 2nd line.

Most people don't.

Cournoyer has 8 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, leading all players in playoff game-winning goals in 3 championship postseasons.

Bowie failed to impress in his limited playoff record, outshone by McGee and the Silver Seven when they met once, Bowie spending his career playing on a lesser team in Montreal, not competing for championships.

Pittsburgh has the strongest collection of defensive F's in the ATD, by a pretty good margin IMO.

Baltimore has arguably the best group of penalty killers, certainly top 3 in this draft.

Moreover, Baltimore has more grit and scrappiness to win ugly if needed, as the playoffs can get. The size of the opponent, like Beliveau, is countered thus.

Vezina

Vezina is precisely the type of G you want in the biggest moments. Most G's can be quite volatile in terms of performances. Emotions.

Billy Smith is a premier money goalie. His teammates have credited him with turning around games by motivating teammates with his emotion, his passion and desire to win that uplifted an occasionally low-spirited squad when the game seemed tilted against them.

After four championships he battled hard for a fifth, leading the playoffs in saves in a finals loss to the emergent dynasty Oilers.

Vezina has a longer great regular season record and Smith a greater playoff record.

It's playoff time!

Playoff Performers

Beliveau, Keith, Gainey all have a Smythe. Vezina would have likely had more than one had the award existed.

3 Conn Smythes?

Baltimore has 4 Conn Smythes!

Scott Stevens, Reggie Leach, Yvan Cournoyer, Billy Smith.

Coulter captained the Rangers to a title and played a key role in Chicago's upset win earlier in his career.

Hap Day captained the Leafs to a title.

History books profile Day's leadership more than Coulter's. Possibly they were equal as captains. Here, Day has help from Stevens & Clarke in that dep't.

Baltimore doesn't take a backseat to Pittsburgh in the series. Pittsburgh's GM has admitted Baltimore has the better blueline. Baltimore matches up well in terms of leadership, goaltending and defensive forwards. Baltimore has the premier net presence on the pp to screen, deflect and bury rebounds in Shanahan, who has scored more powerplay goals (more than any center not named Esposito - not better than Beliveau overall but prolific with the man advantage by the net).

The Broadstreet Bullies of Philly upset the mighty Habs (and Soviets) of the 70's due to a style of play led by Bobby Clarke. Baltimore was built ENTIRELY AROUND Clarke, to give him the tools to repeat his success.

Baltimore is more like a better version of the 70's Flyers than Pittsburgh is of the 70's Habs.

Baltimore is also the 1st seed, so the 3rd seed Pittsburgh squad will not get last line change and so ideal matchups will be for Baltimore to draw penalties and get Stevens-Blake against Beliveau (with Clarke or Kasper) more often than not.

This series should be close. But Baltimore has the chemistry, clutch play and special teams to prevail.

In addition, look for unmatched speed on counterattacks by McDavid and the Roadrunner.

Look for historically-proven depth scoring from Metz and Sloan, the former led the dynasty Leafs in playoff GWGs in their first championship then tied Kennedy for second in playoff goals in their third of four cups together; the latter is a 70 vs.x on Baltimore's 4th line, the Hart trophy runner-up who also was second with Kennedy in Leafs playoff goals in one of the dynasty years.

Baltimore is built to win.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Edge to Pittsburgh in coaching.

Torts did win the Stanley Cup, is a 2-time winner of the Jack Adams trophy in a 30+ team league, is the first American coach to 500 wins (and 600 wins), and guided Columbus to its first-ever playoff series win in a sweep of Tampa, the first time ever a President's trophy winner was unable to win a single playoff game.


Hold on.

1. You drafted round 1 higher so of course Beliveau > Clarke to some degree. But Clarke + Stevens (not to mention Day) makes for the best leadership combo, Stevens bringing enough strength and physicality to match Beliveau's.

Edge in leadership is Baltimore's.

Coaching + leadership = no edge for either team.


Most people don't.

Cournoyer has 8 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe, leading all players in playoff game-winning goals in 3 championship postseasons.

Bowie failed to impress in his limited playoff record, outshone by McGee and the Silver Seven when they met once, Bowie spending his career playing on a lesser team in Montreal, not competing for championships.



Baltimore has arguably the best group of penalty killers, certainly top 3 in this draft.

Moreover, Baltimore has more grit and scrappiness to win ugly if needed, as the playoffs can get. The size of the opponent, like Beliveau, is countered thus.


Billy Smith is a premier money goalie. His teammates have credited him with turning around games by motivating teammates with his emotion, his passion and desire to win that uplifted an occasionally low-spirited squad when the game seemed tilted against them.

After four championships he battled hard for a fifth, leading the playoffs in saves in a finals loss to the emergent dynasty Oilers.

Vezina has a longer great regular season record and Smith a greater playoff record.

It's playoff time!


3 Conn Smythes?

Baltimore has 4 Conn Smythes!

Scott Stevens, Reggie Leach, Yvan Cournoyer, Billy Smith.


Hap Day captained the Leafs to a title.

History books profile Day's leadership more than Coulter's. Possibly they were equal as captains. Here, Day has help from Stevens & Clarke in that dep't.

Baltimore doesn't take a backseat to Pittsburgh in the series. Pittsburgh's GM has admitted Baltimore has the better blueline. Baltimore matches up well in terms of leadership, goaltending and defensive forwards. Baltimore has the premier net presence on the pp to screen, deflect and bury rebounds in Shanahan, who has scored more powerplay goals (more than any center not named Esposito - not better than Beliveau overall but prolific with the nan advantage by the net).

The Broadstreet Bullies of Philly upset the mighty Habs (and Soviets) of the 70's due to a style of play led by Bobby Clarke. Baltimore was built ENTIRELY AROUND Clarke, to give him the tools to repeat his success.

Baltimore is more like a better version of the 70's Flyers than Pittsburgh is of the 70's Habs.

Baltimore is also the 1st seed, so the 3rd seed Pittsburgh squad will get last line change and so ideal matchups for Baltimore to draw penalties and get Stevens-Blake against Beliveau (with Clarke or Kasper) more often than not.

This series should be close. But Baltimore has the chemistry, clutch play and special teams to prevail.

Look for unmatched soeed on counterattacks by McDavid and the Roadrunner. Look for historically-proven depth scoring from Metz and Sloan.

Glad to see you sir! I know Habs is very busy going back to work so I was hoping you'd get some comments in.

• I think Torts is a solid/average coach here. I like the team that he has at his disposal. Green/Robinson is simply a better coaching unit here. People need to remember that Green didn't just inherent dynasties. He built them (especially in the 09-13 stretch), through scouting, player development, tactical innovation, strength and conditioning. Some of the greatest players in history and that era were literally found (Clancy, Darragh) by Green. Both of those men are quoted saying as much. Even the 20's dynasty while a loaded roster when Green took over was floundering under Alf Smith in previous seasons. Green comes in, works out a specific system and dominated the league for 4 years before the league worked to make his trap system obsolete. If that isn't respect I don't know what is.

• Don't forget Larry Robinson. His presence is a boon for the ST's (both units) which is especially nice for our PP blue liners which are always going to trail in match ups head to head w/other PP Dmen. Robinson allows Green even more time to map out a winning formula at ES while not having the same burden in game that a single coach would. And Robinson was a legendary player himself and his own players talked about (video is available in this thread) how much they respected him and the added motivation they got by his presence.

• If you're only going to look at the top 3 leaders on each side, then yes Baltimore is as good and possibly ahead. But let's not forget players who aren't wearing letters and could easily for Pitt. Westfall was renowned for his leadership qualities and was the original Islander captain from 72-77. Westwick captained the 1902 and 1903 Senators with the 2nd team winning a title and was one of the most respected players of the entire 1900's, again another advantage of the deep bio dives. Kunitz wore an A for back to back titles in Pittsburgh. Keith has worn an A for over a decade, winning 3 titles in that span. His value in the locker room is noted and his impressive ability to significantly raise his game in crunch time really cancels out Stevens general advantage as playoff performer. Most people don't realize but Bowie captained the Vics for almost his entire career. Heck, even Vezina was noted to be the spiritual leader for Montreal during his days and his calmness in net will inherently make the skaters in front of him be even more relaxed.

• Cournoyer will also see Gainey, Harris, Olmstead. His time and space will be limited severely. And as I pointed out, Pittsburgh's strategy of trapping that 2nd line is going to force all the fore-checking work on Hadfield because neither McDavid or Counroyer are going to help in that area. Pittsburgh so many great skaters. It was a key focus. Those 2 can't simply be argued to skate by many of the AC's F's or D for that matter. Pittsburgh possesses a very strong skating blue line with Girardi being the only meh player in that regard.

• How often will that line even gain possession on the draw with McD being a terrible face off player?

• Pittsburgh has a roster that is very well built to counter size, strength and average skating which is a sizable portion of Baltimore's roster. Where are the soft players on Pittsburgh? Even somebody like Jarvis, who wasn't very physical (scrappy) or big is literally the NHL's iron man. 964 straight. He's not missing time. Pittsburgh has heavy, heavy checkers up and down the line up and most of those guys sans Olmstead are anywhere from above average to elite in skating. Add in Cully Wilson (he and Tom would be a cool comparison) who is a perfect buffer against BS from Baltimore. Coulter was a big/strong and bad enough dude to whip Earl Seibert in a fist fight and was renowned for his penchant for coming to a teammates aid. Westwick was the biggest pain in the ass to play against in his day. It took a player purposely and repeatedly smashing his leg with a stick to get him out of a game (broken leg) and he watched the rest of it from the bleachers after the docs stabilized it. That was after he skated off with the bone sticking out. And Westwick beat the shit out of Joe Hall. Pittsburgh ironically, despite the skating advantage, are a very physical team in most spots.

• If the Conn Smythe had been around prior to 65, Pittsburgh would have a lot more. You can easily argue another one for Beliveau in 56. Vezina is literally quoted as being the reason the Habs won in 24 and when you read every game report from the other finals he was in, having only 1 is very unlikely for Georges. Smokey Harris or Vezina would have won in 1916 (small world haha) if you read those reports.

• Billy Smith is simply not a better playoff goalie. He was on a dynasty and again, I absolutely agree that he usually played fantastically but Vezina was was renowned for his legendary calmness. Nothing got him off his game. He had an incredible catching (glove) hand. You can literally read the game reports and see that he was often the most important/dominant player on Montreal. He didn't have the luxury of having a 4-5 stretch on a super team. And even when Montreal lost, Vezina is usually cited as being on the only reason the score wasn't worse or the outright best player on either team.

• I have Vezina 10th but am warming up to him @ 9. Given I think he's, at minimum, as good a playoff G as Smith, and has a vastly superior regular season resume/longevity there is a clear edge for Pittsburgh in net.

• Yes, Baltimore has a superior blue line but when you treat defense (and offense) as an entire unit (F and G) the gap is erased. Then factor in Pittsburgh simply has more offensive punch at F, a better F group overall, better G and better coaching staff, I think Pittsburgh prevails.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Something for Everyone to Hate!

Vezina is just better across the board, considerably in some areas. I've got him 10th but am very much warming up to 9th at this point.

I think Vezina is a little over-rated... and have him at 11.

It's still plenty enough to give him a fair edge over Billy Smith.

1st Line:
Shanahan - Clarke (A) - Leach vs Olmstead - Beliveau (C) - Balderis. Shanny's a notch above Olmstead but it's nothing significant.

Shanahan is multiple notches above Olmstead. Shanahan is a mainstream Hall-of-Famer. Olmstead is a marginal Hall-of-Famer. How many of us would be genuinely surprised if Olmstead was still Plaqueless in Toronto?

Coulter is absolutely elite. Look at the teams he played on (Chicago and NY) and where most of those squads finished defensively. I've already posted great scouting reports in previous threads that spell out how great he was defensively. When he was traded for Seibert, it specifically cited Seibert being a notch better offensively but was caught out of position too often whereas Coulter was rarely out of position, being a "near perfect blocker/checker".

Not surprising to find contemporaneous quotes purporting to treat Art Coulter as somewhere near co-equal to Seibert. It doesn't take too much effort to find contemporaneous quotes asserting that Mikita meant more the the BlackHawks than Bobby Hull. The two contentions run neck-and-neck on the credibility-scale.

Estimated minutes chart: ...

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Stevens	16	3	4	23
Blake	16	4	3	23
Day	16		4	20
Suter	16	4		20
Tsygankov	14		3	17
Gusev	14	3		17
	92	14	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

Stevens, Rob Blake, Shanahan, and Clarke... and the squad will be on the Power Play as often as it will be on the Penalty Kill? Mmmkay...

But then- Victoria's triumph over Winnipeg and the Swamp Devils' near-run thing with Bolshoi (how was it that close?!?) shows that if there's a 2020 ATD Playoffs Officiating Directive, it's probably to "let the boys play." So maybe it will be even-steven re: the Man Advantage.

Fun matchup. I have Baltimore RWs vs. Pittsburgh LDs & Pittsburgh's LWs vs. Baltimore's RDs as the battleground zones to watch.
.

 

[ImporterExporter]

@ChiTownPhilly

As always, appreciate the observations my friend.

I'd like to hear why Vezina is overrated to you.

I ask because I have mucho information, some of which probably hasn't been dropped anywhere on this site. There is just no way you get there when you look through his entire career. He was a superstar player, known across the country. He didn't have the luxury of playing on stacked dynasties like Benedict. Vezina's performances stand out more and his importance to Montreal was absolutely more critical than an insulated goalie like Benedict for example. I've never been more sure of that after the past week's exploits through the annals of time. Neither of the western goalies are close to Vezina from the pre consolidation era. You have to get to Brimsek (chronologically) before a truly serious conversation can be had IMO.

Olmstead is on Shanny's level physically. Zero doubt in my mind. Whether you like it or not Shanny's offensive numbers aren't that far ahead of Olmstead's. Whether you're bean counting VsX (Shanny is only a +3 in the 7 year version) or actually looking at the accomplishments. Olmstead led the league in assists in back to back seasons. Set the single season record briefly. Did the same thing in the postseason.

Olmstead has Beliveau. Olmstead and Beliveau peaked together. Check out what they did against Detroit in 56. I've posted the pertinent info regarding their chemistry. If that doesn't matter to you cool, but it might to other voters. Played on a dynasty, yep. So did Shanny. Let's not gloss over that. It's why I generally stay away from the "well if he was on a lesser team". It's conjecture at that point. Dump Shanny on a middling or garbage team and is he plaque-less?

Olmstead is at least a slightly better defensive player and was used in such a manner by Irvin and Blake. When you look at the offensive accomplishments, the general overview of VsX, and then compare their defensive and checking impacts at both ends of the ice....Shanny is a better player but it's not a big gap especially when you factor in who each player is skating with here. IMHO. I know that doesn't and won't change your opinion and that's fine. Just wanted to counter.

Ultimately up to the voters to read the scouting and efforts being put in by Pittsburgh's leadership. I think the prep work and intense focus can only help the AC's chances here.

Lastly, Art Coulter was absolutely on Seibert's level for at least a few seasons. That's based on AS voting, contemporary praise from coaches, GM's, writers. It's the benefit of research. When you have material that threatens the narrative or status quo it often is met with some resistance. Some of us have been through the ringer before.

That doesn't mean Coulter is anywhere near Seibert all time. He isn't. Never said he was. But Coulter's best reached Seibert's level absolutely. Just didn't sustain near as long.

I think Coulter was among the best players in his day, in his own end, without a doubt. He just didn't have the offensive game that Seibert had or someone like Shore REALLY had. But he gives up nothing to either of those guys defensively in my estimation. The teams Coulter played on were almost always strong defensively, and more than a few times were #1 overall. The rep he has over a large portion of his career as a near air tight player in his own end is easy to identify.

Skating also sticks out to me as a big advantage for Pittsburgh top to bottom. You mentioned the LW's vs the RD of Baltimore. Does anyone think Gainey and Harris especially won't have a pretty decent advantage in terms of skating vs Blake and Suter? And Gainey/Harris give up nothing in terms of physicality. That's already known regarding Gainey and with Harris' bio updated, he was one of the roughest players in a very violent era. Olmstead and Kunitz (on home ice) aren't anywhere near the skaters the other 2 are but they both made a long career in the NHL, in large part because they played a heavy game.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

@ChiTownPhilly

I'd like to hear why Vezina is overrated to you.

I ask because I have mucho information, some of which probably hasn't been dropped anywhere on this site. There is just no way you get there when you look through his entire career. He was a superstar player, known across the country. He didn't have the luxury of playing on stacked dynasties like Benedict. Vezina's performances stand out more and his importance to Montreal was absolutely more critical than an insulated goalie like Benedict for example.

Yeah- it does come down to the Vezina-Benedict chestnut, doesn't it? As interesting a conversation as that may be, the result of this series doesn't hinge upon how one stands on that particular matter. I'd just add that it's a minority position, of course-- but not without some fellow-backers. Our very own @VanIslander shares this viewpoint, as does @quoipourquoi , a contributor who knows a little something about analyzing Goaltenders.

I've already conceded an edge to Pittsburgh with the Goaltending match-up. I guess one could credibly counter that Playoff Billy Smith might get edged, but not shamefully gapped- by Vezina.

[A pro-Billy-Smith argument that ISN'T very convincing is that he was cited for laud and praise by his teammates- called a difference-maker at many key junctures. That's exactly what teammates say about one another- it's de rigeur. One can find such quotes by BlackHawk players re: Corey Crawford. Not saying that Crawford is anywhere near Billy Smith... but if we stake the position that Billy Smith is as significant to the Isles Dynasty as Potvin/Trottier/Bossy, then we're definitely exceeding the maximum recommended PSI on those outers.]

Speaking of exceeding the maximum recommended PSI... if we continue to insist that Bert Olmstead is within hailing distance of Brendan Shanahan---

Brendan Shanahan played on a Dynasty?! If that's true, so did Duncan Keith. Olmstead was arguably the best cornerman of the decade? He wasn't even the best cornerman on his own team.

However, this series won't stand or fall on the Shanahan-Olmstead comparison.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yeah- it does come down to the Vezina-Benedict chestnut, doesn't it? As interesting a conversation as that may be, the result of this series doesn't hinge upon how one stands on that particular matter. I'd just add that it's a minority position, of course-- but not without some fellow-backers. Our very own @VanIslander shares this viewpoint, as does @quoipourquoi , a contributor who knows a little something about analyzing Goaltenders.

I've already conceded an edge to Pittsburgh with the Goaltending match-up. I guess one could credibly counter that Playoff Billy Smith might get edged, but not shamefully gapped- by Vezina.

[A pro-Billy-Smith argument that ISN'T very convincing is that he was cited for laud and praise by his teammates- called a difference-maker at many key junctures. That's exactly what teammates say about one another- it's de rigeur. One can find such quotes by BlackHawk players re: Corey Crawford. Not saying that Crawford is anywhere near Billy Smith... but if we stake the position that Billy Smith is as significant to the Isles Dynasty as Potvin/Trottier/Bossy, then we're definitely exceeding the maximum recommended PSI on those outers.]

Speaking of exceeding the maximum recommended PSI... if we continue to insist that Bert Olmstead is within hailing distance of Brendan Shanahan---

Brendan Shanahan played on a Dynasty?! If that's true, so did Duncan Keith. Olmstead was arguably the best cornerman of the decade? He wasn't even the best cornerman on his own team.

However, this series won't stand or fall on the Shanahan-Olmstead comparison.

Do those people have pages and pages worth of book marked material, a lot of which I don't see anywhere on this website in the Vezina bio's? The 64 PLAYOFF save performance against a dynasty Ottawa team in 1923 was hailed as the best ever seen in the winter of 1923. That was Vezina btw. You can see these types of performances across an entire career. He wasn't insulated behind a team full of HOF'ers.

That's the problem with just analyzing numbers. Because there is no other argument for Benedict unless people are heavily slanting the argument to bean counting. He played behind a much better team, and still doesn't have the rep of Vezina, from the people that were actually there. Certainly not the majority. The star power and actual game to game performances make Vezina a pretty clear pick but you admitted that your position is the minority one.

Are you saying Vezina wasn't the most important piece to Montreal's success as I'm implying, because if so I'll be glad to start dumping news paper clippings all day sir. That's not just teammates saying nice things. It's literally printed by the people who were recreating the games for the reader. The people who actually saw and wrote about the games, in detail. Montreal lived and died by Vezina more than they didn't. Which is just another reason why he's the best goalie pre WWII, but that's just one man's opinion.

Shanahan played on a team with multiple HOF C's down the middle. Both were better hockey players than Shanny. Shanny played with a top 5 defensemen all time in Lidstrom. Greatest coach of all time (some may say Blake of course). Deep talent up and down the rosters in Detroit most of his career.

We can play put the guy on a weaker team and see their resumes dry up but that's not how this works. I didn't start that narrative. You did when you talked about Olmstead playing for Toronto. I'm just making sure people see that playing "what if" doesn't jive with the ATD. The voters can see this.

Olmstead's offensive bullet points outshine Shanny. 2x league assist leader, both regular and postseason. Shanny's best finish in anything was goals, 5th in 93-94. BS isn't even the best PP goal scorer in this series. That's Beliveau and I'd agrue Bowie over Shanny as well given the former's proclivity for putting the puck in the net at an all time rate.

The fact of the matter is Olmstead was the best cornerman on his own team and probably, league. The guys he played with said it. What is written about him, his style of play puts him in the class of best of the era, at a minimum. It was literally his bread and butter. But hey, nothing will move you off the sentiment. You've already voted. No worries.

 

[Habsfan18]

I have simply not had the time nor the energy to debate and post regarding this series. I have a lot going on in my personal life right now. Sorry @ImporterExporter. Good luck to you, and thanks for your hard work throughout the ATD.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I have simply not had the time nor the energy to debate and post regarding this series. I have a lot going on in my personal life right now. Sorry @ImporterExporter. Good luck to you, and thanks for your hard work throughout the ATD.

No need to apologize at all my friend. These are crazy times and I know you have a wife, young child and were heading back to work amid all the COVID stuff.

Great news on the COVID front though. Since you're back out in the world working...

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says

 

[Habsfan18]

No need to apologize at all my friend. These are crazy times and I know you have a wife, young child and were heading back to work amid all the COVID stuff.

Great news on the COVID front though. Since you're back out in the world working...

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says

Thank you, and congratulations! Pittsburgh is certainly deserving of representing the Red Fisher conference in the finals. Good luck!