Red Fisher Conference Finals: (1) Pittsburgh AC vs. (2) Chicago Shamrocks

[Sturminator]

Pittsburgh AC

Coach: Lester Patrick

Vladimir Krutov-Frank Boucher-Brett Hull
Frank Foyston (C)-Marty Barry-Andy Bathgate
Jiri Holik-Ivan Hlinka (A)-Bob Nevin
Don Marshall-Dale Hunter-Terry O'Reilly
Kent Nilsson, Brenden Morrow, Jack Adams

Ebbie Goodfellow (A)-Doug Harvey
Georges Boucher-Bob Goldham
Rod Seiling-Nikolai Sologubov
Viktor Kuzkin

Grant Fuhr
Rogie Vachon

PP1: Hull-Boucher-Barry-Bathgate-Harvey
PP2: Krutov-Hlinka-Foyston-Boucher-Goodfellow

PK1: Marshall-Nevin-Harvey-Goldham
PK2: Boucher-Holik-Goodfellow-Seiling
Extras: Foyston, Hunter, Boucher

Vs.

Chicago Shamrocks

Head Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Eddie Gerard
Alternate Captains: Syl Apps, Maurice Richard

Syd Howe - Eric Lindros - Maurice Richard (A)
Patrick Elias - Syl Apps (A) - Jimmy Ward
Bob Pulford - Ralph Backstrom - Dave Taylor
Vic Hadfield- Nicklas Backstrom - Dirk Graham

Spares: Bill Thoms, Miroslav Satan, Jamie Langenbrunner

Eddie Gerard (C) - Earl Seibert
Jim Neilson - Sergei Zubov
Glen Harmon - Ken Morrow

Spares: Bryan McCabe

Tony Esposito
Gump Worsley


Special Teams
PP 1: Lindros - Apps - Richard - Zubov - Howe

PP 2: Elias - N. Backstrom - Taylor - Zubov/Seibert - Gerard


PK 1: Pulford - Graham - Neilson - Seibert

PK 2: R. Backstrom - Ward - Gerard - Morrow

PK 3: Elias - Howe

Extra PK D: Harmon


Estimated Minutes

Forwards

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
S. Howe | 14 | 4 | 1 | 19
E. Lindros | 12 | 5 | 0 | 17
M. Richard | 16 | 5 | 0 | 21
P. Elias | 12 | 2 | 1 | 15
S. Apps | 14 | 5 | 0 | 19
J. Ward | 12 | 0 | 2 | 14
B. Pulford | 11 | 0 | 4 | 15
R. Backstrom | 11 | 0 | 2 | 13
D. Taylor | 11 | 2 | 0 | 13
V. Hadfield | 9 | 0 | 0 | 9
N. Backstrom | 9 | 2 | 0 | 11
D. Graham | 7 | 0 | 4 | 11
TOTAL | 138 | 25 | 14 | 177

*Apps will take 2-3 shifts per game on the first line for Lindros
**Richard will take 2-3 shifts per game on the 4th line for Graham

Defense

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
E. Seibert | 20 | 1 | 4 | 25
E. Gerard | 17 | 3 | 3 | 23
S. Zubov | 14 | 6 | 0 | 20
J. Neilson | 14 | 0 | 4 | 18
G. Harmon | 15 | 0 | 0 | 15
K. Morrow | 12 | 0 | 3 | 15
TOTAL | 92 | 10 | 14 | 116

***Seibert will take 2-3 shifts per game with Harmon for Morrow​

Click to read more...

 

[Sturminator]

Note that the (1) ... (2) rankings in the post title are referring to conference finish here. Pittsburgh has home ice.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Good luck guys looks to be a very very interesting series

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

What a fun playoff run...First Dreakmur, then BB, and now RS...All strong/experienced/respected/successful GM's that make good arguments.

Here's to a good series RS!


(I'll hold off on posting until RS decides if he's going to stick with his lineup from last series or go back to his original)

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Looking forward to it HT!

I'm going to do some thinking on my forward combination.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

To get some discussion going in the meantime however, I'll take a look at our defensemen.

Top pairs

|AST Records|HoH Rank
Harvey|1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 10|2
Seibert|1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 7, 10|16

Both great players, but Seibert is an average #1, while Harvey is elite. Advantage to Pittsburgh.

|AST Records|HoH Rank
Goodfellow|2, 2, 3, 5, 5; 3 (center), 4 (center)|43
Gerard|?|30

As I've said before Goodfellow is hurt by his time playing forward, with split vote years, but Gerard is supreme. Gerard made the second team of the MacLean's all-time team, and was a versatile member of the Sens.

We each have a better defender, but I believe with Harvey leading the way that Pittsburgh's top pair is better.

Second Pairs

|AST Records|HoH Rank
Boucher|?|48
Zubov|3, 5, 5, 7, 8, 8, 11, 10, 13, 13|Didn't place in the top 60, but was eligible for voting in the final two rounds

Boucher was an elite scorer, received some Hart Trophy recognition, and made the 1925 MacLean's all-time team. He's a notch above Zubov.

|AST Records
Goldham|3, 5, 7, 8; 7?, 5-11?
Neilson|4, 5, 6, 9

Goldham and Neilson were defensive-minded guys, but I have Goldham slightly ahead.

I believe Pittsburgh as the superior second pair, with a notable advantage for our #3s.

Third Pairs

|AST Records
Harmon - 3, 4, 8,11
Sologubov - 7x Soviet League AST, 3x WC Best Defender

??? I like Harmon a lot, and have no clean way to make this comparison. Solly was a star in late 50s European hockey. He also received immense praise from Western observers.

Bobby Bauer (Canadian/Kitchener coach in 1956, former NHL All-Star) said:
“Sologubov could star on any National Hockey League team.” - 1956

Milt Dunnell, Sports Editor of the Toronto Star said:
“Sologubov and Krylov could make any National Hockey League club and be a star.” - 1956

Foster Hewitt (Hockey broadcaster) said:
“Solly is the best two-way defenceman I have seen in a long time.” - 1956

Andy O’Brien (Weekend Magazine sports editor) said:
“He could make any NHL team.” – 1956

“Canadian observers on the scene [1956 Olympics] went wild about Solly, a friendly, grinning 32-year old who displayed gold inlays from ear to ear.” - The Ottawa Citizen, January 14, 1960

“Gone are the stars of previous world and Olympic hockey tournaments including big Nikolai (Solly) Sologubov, the first Russian who learned the art of the crunching bodycheck and who rated as National Hockey League defence timber.” - The Brandon Sun, October 18, 1962

Led by 21-year-old defenceman Nikolai Sologubov, tagged by Canadian experts as good enough to play on any National Hockey League club, they anticipated the Dutchmen's offensive moves, breaking up their attacks before they materialized.

Again, I don't know what to make of these two. I haven't said a ton about Sologubov yet, but I strongly encourage anyone wants to dismiss him to read some the quotes I was able to compile (they were found mostly by other posters).

|AST Records
Morrow| 14 (2 voting points), 16
Seiling|7, 8, 10

Much simpler here with two defensive-minded defensemen who played during the AST voting era. Seiling received much better acclaim than Morrow despite Morrow's playoff successes. Seiling gets the nod here.

Calling our third pairs depends what you make of the comparisons of our #5s. #6s are pretty straight forward, but you'd have see a bigger gap between Solly and Harmon than Seiling and Morrow to call it for Chicago.

To recap individual advantages, as I see them:
1 - PIT
2 - CHI
3 - PIT
4 - PIT
5 - ???
6 - PIT

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Some General Information on the Shamrocks (this was also presented last round)...

Playing Style:

Each of the scoring lines has a dynamic offensive player in Richard and Apps who can really "score on their own" if given the space, which will likely cause opponents to key on these players. If this happens it should help set up Gorman's forecheck by drawing opposing Dmen out of position. If the forecheck is successful and opposing Dmen want to "cheat" to get to the puck quicker, then they will be forced to give more space to Richard/Apps, so we should have an advantage somewhere.

As far as forechecking goes, this team is set up really well for a strong forecheck...Lindros is more than a handful and there are some good quotes in Howe's bio showing he is able as well. On the 2nd line, Ward has a lot of speed and grit, Elias is less physical but has good defensive acumen and obviously can work within a system. Richard/Apps are more there to create offense once we have the puck back, but with Apps playing for Hap Day and Richard for Blake (often playing against top lines), as far as high offense players go I think they are good options as a "3rd forechecker." Neither are soft, and I think it's fair to say they can at least apply pressure and force the opposition to do something if put in that situation. Not saying they will win the puck back themselves, but I don't think they're an "easy out." The 3rd line is made up of 3 guys who are all praised for their forechecking abilities...R. Backstrom and Pulford are faster than Taylor so more often than not one of those 2 will be the first man in with Taylor being 2nd or 3rd. This line really has the potential to pin a team in their own zone. The 4th line is also capable of playing this system...Graham is a strong forechecker, N. Backstrom has good two-way ability, and Hadfield is a physical force that can be the finisher to N. Backstrom's playmaking.

Eric Lindros' Durability/Concussion Concerns

We know Lindros has durability/concussion issues. I think placing him on the 1st line with an elite player like Richard will by no means eliminate this issue, but will help, and here's why...

Throughout his career and generally in the ATD (as a 2nd line C) Lindros is the focal point and best player on his line allowing opposing Dmen to key on him. On Chicago's top line, Richard is the focal point, and this may give Lindros a little more space and time. Also, please note on the minutes chart that Apps is taking a few shifts on the top line, so Lindros isn't getting high minutes and getting worn down.

Goaltending

Some people tend to over-exaggerate Tony Esposito's playoff woes, not saying the criticism is completely unwarranted, but he does have four significant playoff sv% rankings - among goalies with 300+ minutes (1st/5-1971, 2nd/13-1982, 3rd/5-1974, 3rd/13-1980). He is also said to have outplayed Ken Dryden in the Summit Series. Further, many theorize that the reason Esposito struggled in the playoffs at times was because he was overworked during the regular season.

Gump Worsley is a perfect compliment to the above concerns. First, he is one of the best backups in the ATD, and likely just missed being a starter. That means the Shamrocks were able to comfortably play Worsley in the regular season to ensure Esposito was not overworked. Second, Gumper has a lot of playoff success, winning 4 Stanley Cups in 5 years with Montreal, so if necessary Gorman has a very reliable second option should Esposito falter.

Syl Apps Missed Time to WWII

Syl Apps left for WWII in the middle of his prime. He left in the middle of the 1943 season playing only 29/50 games...he was still named a 2nd team AS and finished 3rd in Hart voting. In 1942, his last full season before the War, Apps was a 1st team AS and Hart runner-up.

Not including the 1943 partial season, Apps only played 6 seasons before going to war. Therefore, his 7yr vs.X likely underrates him. His 6yr average was 95.1.

A Roster That Steps It Up In The Playoffs:

Maurice Richard: We all know him...one of the greatest playoff performers of all time, 2 Retro Conn Smythes. Led the playoffs in goals 5 times. 2nd all time in playoff OT goals.

Syl Apps: 1 Retro Conn Smythe, top 3 in team scoring in each of 3 Cup Wins and 6 Finals.

Earl Seibert: 1 Retro Conn Smythe

Bob Pulford: 1 Retro Conn Smythe. Joe Pelletier: "He thrived under pressure and was especially valuable during the playoffs when the checking got tougher."

Syd Howe: Strong playoff record. Top 2 in team scoring for 2 Cups. Jack Adams said his playoff record overshadowed Nels Stewart's.

Eddie Gerard: Captain of Ottawa Dynasty. 1922 Stanley Cup injury replacement for Harry Cameron when Toronto had their choice of anyone in the East, after one game Patricks refused to let him play. 1923 Cup win, played through severe injury.

Patrick Elias: Leading playoff scorer of the NJ Devils (by 20 pts) from 2000-2003 when the Devils won 2 Cups and went to 3 Finals (also leader in pts per game when looking at players who weren't there for all of those years)

Ralph Backstrom: Bio: "He scored 20 or more goals five times in 12 full seasons with the Habs and was a reliable playoff performer, often one of the most consistent point producers in the postseason."

Dirk Graham: Joe Pelletier: "Graham, who won the Selke Trophy as the league's best defensive forward in 1991, was a playoff warrior. In the 1990 playoffs he played with a frozen leg due to a cracked knee cap."

Ken Morrow: Defensive staple of the Islanders Dynasty. Bio:"In fact, Morrow's career numbers only included 17 goals and 105 points in 550 regular season games. But during the post-season, he seemed to thrive as he recorded 11 goals and 33 points in 127 playoff contests."

Jim Neilson: Quote from a teammate: "Jim is a defensive player and playoffs are defensive games. That's why Jim means the most to us when the games mean the most – in the playoffs. He instills a sense of confidence in the rest of the team."

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I'm going to do some thinking on my forward combination.

Any update on this RS?

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I'm going to go back to my original lineup

Krutov-Boucher-Hull
Foyston-Barry-Bathgate
Holik-Hlinka-Nevin
Marshall-Hunter-O'Reilly

 

[Rob Scuderi]

First Lines
Richard – 102.4
Boucher – 95.1
Hull - 88
Lindros - 85
Howe – 83.9
Krutov?

Each time has a clear advantage between their best center and winger. Richard is Chicago's best player and a 12 point edge in VsX over Hull. Boucher is Pittsburgh's best forward and a noticeable gap above Lindros. Lindros was incredibly physical, and Boucher has the defensive and possession games. The gaps between these two groups seems similar. Howe vs Krutov round out our lines. Howe seems like the consistent jack of all trades, master of none type. Krutov had a really high peak playing a power game, and eight strong years in the USSR finishing top 10 in the Soviet league each time. Howe seems rated higher, but this is the first year we have some good evidence challenging the PED factor with Krutov that always plagues his ATD stock. Granted he's nothing like steady all-time points leader when he retired, in Howe, but they seem pretty close overall to me. Either way, Chicago has the edge on top lines thanks to Richard.

Second Lines
Bathgate – 101.1
Apps – 92.4
Barry – 89.6
Elias – 78.9
Ward – 68.5
Foyston?

Bathgate has a big advantage over the rest of these guys. Elias has the depressed scoring angle, but Bathgate was a top five scorer nine times! Bary isn't far behind Apps in VsX, with a smaller gap between these two than Bathgate-Elias. Ward is a low-end 2nd line glue guy, we don't have VsX for Foyston but he's certainly better. He was a strong playoff performer for the Mets and played a well-rounded game. I think these lines are a clear advantage to Pittsburgh, and a larger gap than top lines.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Don't have time for my own analysis of line matchups today, but just wanted to add this little bit about Syl Apps' vs.X score from previous rounds:

Syl Apps left for WWII in the middle of his prime. He left in the middle of the 1943 season playing only 29/50 games...he was still named a 2nd team AS and finished 3rd in Hart voting. In 1942, his last full season before the War, Apps was a 1st team AS and Hart runner-up.

Not including the 1943 partial season, Apps only played 6 seasons before going to war. Therefore, his 7yr vs.X likely underrates him. His 6yr average was 95.1.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

HT posted some praise for the playoff performances of some of his teammates, but I think a lot of that general praise can be found in most members of my roster.

Boucher led the playoffs in scoring twice, including a 10 point playoff performance in 1928 when the second place scorer had 5 points. Boucher also scored 4/5 Rangers goals in the Stanley Cup finals victory against the Maroons.
Barry led the playoffs in scoring twice, with two other top ten finishes, and was a very strong playoff performer.
Foyston led the playoffs in scoring twice, finished second twice, and fifth once.
Hull led the playoffs in scoring once, and goals twice.
Bathgate’s less than stellar playoff record still saw him lead the playoffs in goals once, and play a key role in the Leafs winning their third consecutive cup.
Marshall a cog in the Canadiens dynasty of the 50s.

Krutov was extremely strong in international tournaments, and Hlinka has a very good record as well, particularly in games against the USSR.


Harvey

In the 1953 Stanley Cup final, Montreal won Game Four by a 7-3 count, with Maurice Richard collecting a hattrick. The tandem of Butch Bouchard and Doug Harvey was particularly effective.

In the playoffs on 1968, St. Louis was playing Philadelphia in the seventh game of their quarter-final playoff series. Paired with veteran Al Arbour, Harvey and his partner played more than 40 minutes each in a 3-1 victory to clinch the series.

Against the Canadiens, the veteran kept the flying Habitants off balance with his knowledge of angles, clearing the puck unerringly and setting up St. Louis forays with his beautifully-timed passes.

Goodfellow

He was a member of two Detroit teams that won the Stanley Cup in successive years and was a driving force in the victories.

George Boucher

In the world series against Seattle, through the games both in Ottawa and Toronto, Boucher was probably the brightest star on the Ottawa team.

In fact, Boucher helped nurture the young Clancy from his first days with Ottawa and contributed significantly to the Senators' four Stanley Cup triumphs in 1920, 1921, 1923, and 1927.

George Boucher was the bright individual star for the Senators. He has no peers in movements designed to bring goals and the one he got for his team was well deserved. He was cheered again and again last night, not a voice being raised against him, although his tactics on defense were much more strenuous than anything charged to Gerard who seemed off color all evening.

Goldham

Goldham was a defensive giant in front of Sawchuk, not only in the final game, but during the entire playoffs and regular season, as well. The Red Wings players were practically unanimous in the opinion that the 32 year old defenseman was the team's most valuable player, quite an accomplishment for one who was expected to see only part-time duty.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Some playoff praise for Fuhr:

For now, here is a player poll conducted by The Pittsburgh Press January 21, 1990 with 123 NHL players responding:

Question: Who would you want as your goalie to stop an opponent's breakaway with 30 seconds left and the score tied in the seventh game of the Stanley Cup final?

Name Team Votes
Grant Fuhr Oilers 40
Patrick Roy Canadiens 17
Darren Puppa Sabres 11
Mike Vernon Flames 11
Mike Liut/John Vanbiesbrouck 8

This coming after Patrick Roy had already won a Stanley Cup, and when he was coming off two consecutive post season allstars as well as a Vezina - and in the midst of a third straight post season all star and second straight Vezina season!

Here are the save percentages for each Cup-winning goalie in the save percentage era, adjusted to league average and normalized to the current average save level (.911):

1984: Grant Fuhr, .933
1985: Grant Fuhr, .925
1987: Grant Fuhr, .932
1988: Grant Fuhr, 913

...this is the time of year when Grant Fuhr flourishes. He loves the pressure. That's why he's the best playoff goaltender in the league.

As for Fuhr, he became an instant Conn Smythe candidate with the cool he displayed under the Islanders' fire.

 

[Sturminator]

So, I guess the rosters are set now. My thoughts on this series:

1) Pittsburgh's forwards have been talked about a lot, but the AC are actually a team built from the blueline out. Gorman's system is designed to overwhelm opponents by putting pressure on the defensemen in the offensive zone, and swarming when turnovers are created. Will it work against Pittsburgh's blueline, which is physical, very strong defensively, and can move the puck? This is maybe the single toughest blueline in the draft for a Gorman-coached team to attack.

2) How do the AC deal with Maurice Richard? They've got three left wings who can check, leaving the top line strangely as the one you don't want to have out there against Rocket. The size/physicality of Pittsburgh's centers also suggest that this should be the matchup. Boucher is feisty, but I would expect Barry, Hlinka and Hunter to hold up better matched against Lindros. Can Rocket dominate the likes of Foyston, Holik and Marshall enough to overcome Chicago's disadvantages?

3) Does H_T try to match Pulford against Bathgate? Pulford could probably make Andy's life difficult, though it's not clear to me if that will be sufficient. Pulford is an elite checking forward, but Backstrom and Taylor are not. Can those two effectively contain Foyston and Barry, with Georges Boucher backing them up? Foyston and Barry are both among the greatest postseason performers of their respective generations, and Boucher is among the best offensive defensemen on any second pairing this year, so it's a pretty tall task. Chicago has a strong defensive top pairing, but Neilson - Zubov, while by no means bad, will still have a tough time against either of the AC's top two lines because both lines are very talented.

4) Does Ivan Hlinka cause problems in this series? Having an elite 3rd line scorer who can create his own offense at that position is useful against teams with little defensive depth down the middle, such as Chicago (and Pittsburgh, as well, though Hlinka doesn't have to play himself). Hlinka in the 15th round was Rob's rabbit in a hat this year, and if the pick is going to pay off, this may be the series.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Apologies for the lack of participation everyone, I've had a hellish week and a half at work. I'll at least get a little something written up by this afternoon

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here's a rough game plan for Chicago and why Chicago should win the series...


Gorman will likely want to go power on power when it comes to forward line matchups, Sturm referred to some of the reasons why. Krutov is not a LW that can check Richard, and while Boucher is no pushover, Lindros will likely have the most success taking advantage of his size and power vs. Boucher as opposed to Barry or Hlinka. Pittsburgh has home ice, so they will dictate the matchups more often than not, but the good news for Chicago is if Patrick tries to avoid this matchup Gorman may be able to force him to keep his top line on the bench more than he wants to by giving the Richard line a lot of minutes.

As far as Richard goes, obviously Pittsburgh will try to match their top D pairing against the Rocket as much as possible, but it should be noted that Doug Harvey is playing the opposite side that Richard will be on. According to the "which side did they play" thread that has been referenced several times during the playoffs, Goodfellow only played the left side, so if Patrick wants to switch Harvey to the left side Goodfellow will be at a disadvantage playing his off-side.

As Sturm alluded to, Pittsburgh has good two-way wingers in Foyston, Holik, and Marshall that will help check Richard, but it should be noted that none of those are elite shutdown wingers like your Gaineys, Pulfords, Pavelichs, etc.

On the other hand...Chicago does have an elite shutdown winger in Bob Pulford who can check Pittsburgh's largest offensive threat Andy Bathgate. Further, Pulford's physicality should be able to really cause problems for Bathgate as he is not a physical player himself.

I think Sturm is underrating Ralph Backstrom's effectiveness as a checker. There is a quote in his bio about effectively shutting down Phil Esposito, which shows he can handle a bigger body like Marty Barry. Also, Backstrom has fantastic speed which is the best thing to have against a puck rusher like Boucher.

The above is the ideal matchup, but Chicago's 1st/3rd lines should be fine matching up against either of Pittsburgh's top 2 lines. Syd Howe on the first line is a fine two-way player that can check Bathgate and Barry will have his hands full with Lindros. Gorman may also play Dirk Graham on the 3rd line when they find themselves up against Pittsburgh's 1st line as Graham is likely a better matchup against Krutov.

I think Syl Apps poses a bit of a problem for Pittsburgh. Gorman will want to avoid Apps facing Boucher, but as seen above Chicago already has 2 options there. Barry and Hlinka have the size to match Apps, but I do not believe they have the defensive ability to limit such a dynamic offensive force. If the 2nd lines end up facing off, Patrick Elias is not a shutdown winger, but plays a good defensive game, and his lack of physical play is not an issue against a guy like Bathgate who doesn't play a power game.


Question about Pittsburgh: Frank Boucher played most of his career alongside the Cook brother. Bill in particular was a very tough player and willing fighter. Krutov can take care of himself, and can battle in the corners, but no one's going to be intimidated by him, and Hull doesn't really bring anything outside of scoring. Frank Boucher is not a soft player, but will his game be affected by not having a guy like Bill Cook with him in the offensive zone? Especially if he's down low with Lindros?

Richard vs. Bathgate
As both RS and myself have posted, each team has several players that have proven themselves in the playoffs; however in a close series it often comes down to the stars...Pittsburgh's best offensive threat, Andy Bathgate, has notable playoff struggles which we all know well, while Maurice Richard is one of the very best playoff players of all time. Fun fact: during the Pens-Caps game 5 this year, NBC threw up a graphic showing the best all time point-per-game players in elimination games which Maurice Richard was at the top of.


Why Chicago will win this series
- Better forward options to check Pittsburgh's most dangerous offensive players

- Goaltending advantage with a proven playoff performer in Gump Worsely as a second option

- Best players better in the playoffs, specifically Richard vs. Bathgate (Apps, Seibert, Harvey, Boucher are all great playoff performers)

- Syl Apps causing a matchup problem for Pittsburgh

- More physical up front (Lindros, Pulford, Taylor, Ward, Howe, Hadfield, Graham vs. Hlinka, Foyston, Barry, Krutov, Hunter, O'Reilly - 4th liners in italics)

- Better top line that can potentially limit the minutes of Pittsburgh's top line

 

[ImporterExporter]

Got the AC winning here in 7
Foyston
Harvey
Syl Apps

 

[Sturminator]

Got the AC winning here in 7
Foyston
Harvey
Syl Apps

Heh...ok, I can accept that as a vote, though normally we send PMs.

 

[jarek]

The playoff warriors Foyston and Fuhr pull the AC through in 7 games for me.

Fuhr, Richard, Foyston

 

[VanIslander]

Two PUBLIC votes for one team? That's a main ATD first! I hate the fact that both were posted and remain,
but if they do, I feel compelled to reveal my vote against. 24+ hours ago I voted for the other team, based on
the heroics I expected from Rocket Richard (I've read countless examples of him deciding close games and
series), Earl Seibert (the true clutch hero of pre-O6 era hockey, though most hockey fans know little of him)
and it's been a running injustice that Steve Yzerman keeps getting drafted before HHOF great Syl Apps, Sr.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Unfortunately I didn't have the time to respond to any of this, but painting Bathgate as a softie seems entirely offbase. Just read his bio, he could take care of himself.

It's also interesting HT painted a picture of Bathgates playoff woes vs Richards playoff heroics. One guy is the catalyst to their team and first pick, the other is catalyst to a balanced top six. If Bathgate was my end all be all, yes his playoff record would be of concern. Instead, he's on a second line to pose matchup problems, instead of being my teams focus like he was in New York and like HT is trying to paint it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think HT was very wise to get someone like Worsley to back up Tony O

 

[VanIslander]

For the record, I have been for years and years pimping Foyston, Holik, Hlinka, Hunter, Kuzkin, Fuhr...
but I believe they are on the loosing end of this series.
I am just one vote (facing two VOCALLY against and countless not yet posted).

I feel this series is a win-win.

BOTH are great.

Congrats to whomever wins, and ...

it's been an appreciated ride for whomever's team falls short of the 2016 ATD championship final.

 

[jarek]

I just believe in transparency. That's all.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Since it's not 3 AM, here's some evidence for what I meant in my ramblings. Bathgate was a big, strong player who was very tough. He could play physically and take care of himself if he had to drop the gloves. Pulford won't provide some x factor with his physical play against Bathgate and using Elias seems like a particularly bad matchup for Chicago.

Although capable of playing a tough physical style, Andy was outspoken in his opposition to violence in hockey… in the 1964 Stanley Cup finals, Bathgate was outstanding.

Keep in mind his opposition to violence is famously centered around the Red Sullivan spearing incident, not typical hard-nosed play.

The big right winger, who was as graceful as future star Wayne Gretzky and as physical as Rocket Richard was simply unstoppable…

Andy Bathgate at first appeared too much the pacifist for the NHL jungle. But he raised his dukes when necessary, licking such notorious hockey cops as Howie Young, then of the Red Wings, and Vic Stasiuk of the Bruins. By 1954-55, Andy was in the NHL to stay, and soon was being favorably compared with the greatest Ranger right winger, Bill Cook.

Bathgate was not a little guy – he was a big powerful man. They didn’t tangle with Andy Bathagte because he was big and strong, and if they tried to get smart with him, he’d answer them back. He wasn’t reluctant to, you know, hit back, but he didn’t feel that it was necessary. He’d rather score a goal than take a penalty.

Like Howe, Bathgate could play the physical game and was known as a fierce fighter when the occasion warranted it.

Bathgate didn’t go looking for trouble, but as the Rangers’ top gunner he was often the target of enemy bullies. He provided his own protection. The same lightning reflexes that served him as a goal-scorer ad play-maker made him equally quick with his fists. When Detroit’s bad boy, Howie Young, wouldn’t stop tormenting him with his stick, Andy ripped the lumber out of Howie’s hands, dropped his gloves, and cleaned Young’s clock. Hulking Vic Stasiuk of the Bruins challenged Bathgate with his fists in the first and third periods of a game and came off second best on both occasions.